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  1. #1

    GC: Prove 5-10% DPS difference between two specs = FIX

    Unless you can demonstrate that "scaling" is going to cause a 5-10% DPS difference between one spec and another within a single tier (say 13 ilevels or so), we're not inclined to mess with it. I'm not trying to dismiss the concerns, but it's become such a buzzword among players that I worry scaling discussions are drowning out other conversations.
    So, Crawler basically got himselves into a corner now - if I remember right Endus/Binkenstein had some math going which proves that we're 10% behind the #1 DPS. I've no access to US forums, nor I have twitter, so its up to you to bring the elemental spec into the right position.

    Its no secret the fire mage is best scaling class, and elemental the worst one.
    Last edited by UcanDoSht; 2013-02-05 at 12:26 PM.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  2. #2
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    What he means in my opinion is that e.g. at the start of a tier spec A is 10% behind spec B, and that at the end of the tier that gap became 20%, of which the 10% extra are due to inferior stat scaling. Which is a different thing that just showing ele is behind.

  3. #3
    Yeah but fire mages get 20 % nerfs every few months so... :P

    I don't get why GC is talking about a 13 ilvl difference anyways since one tier now seems to be 496 -> 522 = 26 ilvls...?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    So, Crawler basically got himselves into a corner now - if I remember right Endus/Binkenstein had some math going which proves that we're 10% behind the #1 DPS. I've no access to US forums, nor I have twitter, so its up to you to bring the elemental spec into the right position.

    Its no secret the fire mage is best scaling class, and elemental the worst one.
    But then again, he usually dismisses simcraft as "onedimensional type of fight" and dismisses raidbots because "people play the OP specs, so the lower ones are not necessarily that weak"

    He is just talking bullsh1t, they have very rarely listened to feedback about dps, let alone shaman dps. Thats why most patches since ZA patch in tBC, they are just hotfixing our dps after the patch is live.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    So, Crawler basically got himselves into a corner now - if I remember right Endus/Binkenstein had some math going which proves that we're 10% behind the #1 DPS. I've no access to US forums, nor I have twitter, so its up to you to bring the elemental spec into the right position.

    Its no secret the fire mage is best scaling class, and elemental the worst one.
    Different classes =/= scaling

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Summerwind View Post
    Yeah but fire mages get 20 % nerfs every few months so... :P

    I don't get why GC is talking about a 13 ilvl difference anyways since one tier now seems to be 496 -> 522 = 26 ilvls...?
    Last nerf on a fire mage was 5%...you just read a 20% chance on a spell.

    And yes, fire mages do scale a lot...but I can't say ele is different.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    Last nerf on a fire mage was 5%...you just read a 20% chance on a spell.
    I was trying for a little sarcasm But it was more than 5 % regardless, maybe around 10 or even 15 % depending on the fight and wasn't the first time fire mages got nerfed for scaling so well. And no, I didn't just read the change on a spell

  8. #8
    Scaling: How much your class improves in DPS with stats, not how good/bad you are compared to OTHERS.

    If you can prove that all the stats you do get with a total 13 ilevel upgrade (even more if you factor in heroic) within a single tier, makes little impact to your spec's total DPS, then you have a gripe. Saying you are X% behind Y class/spec, isn't what he is wanting by that statement. He wants to know "Does your spec not improve much in DPS/Healing/Survivability based on earning an entire raid tier worth of stats?".
    Games are not necessarily "easier" today. You are just a better player.
    It takes more now to impress many gamers than it did 2-5 years ago, because so much has already been seen and done.
    Many players expect to be wow'd with every release of a beloved franchise.
    These are generally NOT the fault of the developers, but the fault of many players over-hyping and/or setting expectations too high.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroEdgeir View Post
    Scaling: How much your class improves in DPS with stats, not how good/bad you are compared to OTHERS.

    If you can prove that all the stats you do get with a total 13 ilevel upgrade (even more if you factor in heroic) within a single tier, makes little impact to your spec's total DPS, then you have a gripe. Saying you are X% behind Y class/spec, isn't what he is wanting by that statement. He wants to know "Does your spec not improve much in DPS/Healing/Survivability based on earning an entire raid tier worth of stats?".
    Run simcraft in 463 blues, 489 purples and 512/520 upgraded items.

    Now tell me the gap doesnt widen.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    Run simcraft in 463 blues, 489 purples and 512/520 upgraded items.

    Now tell me the gap doesnt widen.
    489 - 463 =/= 13 or less

    Hell 463 isn't even an epic which would be budgeted differently than a rare.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    489 - 463 =/= 13 or less

    Hell 463 isn't even an epic which would be budgeted differently than a rare.
    Yep, thats why some people wear BiS blues in challenge modes. I understand where you're coming from, but please just stop posting.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  12. #12
    The Patient
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    We shamans are not crying enough, it seems sometimes.

  13. #13
    I'm pretty sure he's talking about specs within a class, such as if fire mages were to scale too well compared to arcane and thus arcane would be silly to pick in that tier. Pretty sure you're talking about how one class scales compared to another. That's an entirely different animal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Summerwind View Post
    Yeah but fire mages get 20 % nerfs every few months so... :P

    I don't get why GC is talking about a 13 ilvl difference anyways since one tier now seems to be 496 -> 522 = 26 ilvls...?
    He said "say 13 levels or so." - So it's just an example.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Yep, thats why some people wear BiS blues in challenge modes. I understand where you're coming from, but please just stop posting.
    GC's post has nothing to do with downscaling for CMs. You're going to have to try and read the blue posts if you want to discuss them.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    And yes, fire mages do scale a lot...but I can't say ele is different.
    Put 100% Haste; 100% Crit and give 10k Mastery Rating to a Fire Mage and an Elemental.

    Fire Mage will go on a Dps Rampage while Elemental will start to stagnate.

    Altough this example rarely exists in reality, it shows that Elemental won't scale as good as Fire Mage with higher Stat rating.

    Obviously this example is outside of Bl and other procs / special buffs not entirely true, it still shows that with high gear lvl Elemental scaling starts to stagnate while other class(es) continue.

    Though Elemental has a bit of History of not so good scaling, /wave Shamanism.

    And Blizzard likes to put Haste Buffs / Proc trinkets into the game for Caster, doesn't help that much on this.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    GC's post has nothing to do with downscaling for CMs. You're going to have to try and read the blue posts if you want to discuss them.
    I was referring to the bolded part, which is wrong. Consider to stop posting, please.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    489 - 463 =/= 13 or less

    Hell 463 isn't even an epic which would be budgeted differently than a rare.
    its still one tier. GCs arbitrary 13 ilev difference is just that. arbitrary.

    And please, dont post "facts" if you have no clue how items are budgeted. purples are no longer "extra" budgeted, for TWO EXPANSIONS already, the only difference between 500 green and 500 purple would be disenchant mats. But it wasnt on MMO front page, so it its a lie! ...

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    I was referring to the bolded part, which is wrong. Consider to stop posting, please.
    And you'd still be wrong. The reason people wear blues for CMs is so that they don't suffer from stat down scaling and can control how their stats are allocated. I understand it hurts to be wrong but you need to accept it preferably sooner rather than later. This issue isn't the issue you think it is and you may want to read the blue post more thoroughly next time.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeraxis View Post
    489 - 463 =/= 13 or less

    Hell 463 isn't even an epic which would be budgeted differently than a rare.
    Rares and epics have had the same budget since cata. The only thing that matters now is ilvl and sockets.
    Also, why 13 ilvls when we're gaining 26 ilvls?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    I was referring to the bolded part, which is wrong. Consider to stop posting, please.
    Which has nothing to do with your topic, quite honestly. Class scaling isn't exactly tuned for Challenge Modes... it's tuned for raids. You want to prove that shaman scaling makes them drop low enough that they should be buffed? Do it. Don't attack other user's credibility.

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