# Thread: GC: Prove 5-10% DPS difference between two specs = FIX

1. ## GC: Prove 5-10% DPS difference between two specs = FIX

Unless you can demonstrate that "scaling" is going to cause a 5-10% DPS difference between one spec and another within a single tier (say 13 ilevels or so), we're not inclined to mess with it. I'm not trying to dismiss the concerns, but it's become such a buzzword among players that I worry scaling discussions are drowning out other conversations.
So, Crawler basically got himselves into a corner now - if I remember right Endus/Binkenstein had some math going which proves that we're 10% behind the #1 DPS. I've no access to US forums, nor I have twitter, so its up to you to bring the elemental spec into the right position.

Its no secret the fire mage is best scaling class, and elemental the worst one.

2. What he means in my opinion is that e.g. at the start of a tier spec A is 10% behind spec B, and that at the end of the tier that gap became 20%, of which the 10% extra are due to inferior stat scaling. Which is a different thing that just showing ele is behind.

3. Yeah but fire mages get 20 % nerfs every few months so... :P

I don't get why GC is talking about a 13 ilvl difference anyways since one tier now seems to be 496 -> 522 = 26 ilvls...?

4. Originally Posted by UcanDoSht
So, Crawler basically got himselves into a corner now - if I remember right Endus/Binkenstein had some math going which proves that we're 10% behind the #1 DPS. I've no access to US forums, nor I have twitter, so its up to you to bring the elemental spec into the right position.

Its no secret the fire mage is best scaling class, and elemental the worst one.
But then again, he usually dismisses simcraft as "onedimensional type of fight" and dismisses raidbots because "people play the OP specs, so the lower ones are not necessarily that weak"

He is just talking bullsh1t, they have very rarely listened to feedback about dps, let alone shaman dps. Thats why most patches since ZA patch in tBC, they are just hotfixing our dps after the patch is live.

5. Originally Posted by UcanDoSht
So, Crawler basically got himselves into a corner now - if I remember right Endus/Binkenstein had some math going which proves that we're 10% behind the #1 DPS. I've no access to US forums, nor I have twitter, so its up to you to bring the elemental spec into the right position.

Its no secret the fire mage is best scaling class, and elemental the worst one.
Different classes =/= scaling

6. Originally Posted by Summerwind
Yeah but fire mages get 20 % nerfs every few months so... :P

I don't get why GC is talking about a 13 ilvl difference anyways since one tier now seems to be 496 -> 522 = 26 ilvls...?
Last nerf on a fire mage was 5%...you just read a 20% chance on a spell.

And yes, fire mages do scale a lot...but I can't say ele is different.

7. Originally Posted by Sarac
Last nerf on a fire mage was 5%...you just read a 20% chance on a spell.
I was trying for a little sarcasm But it was more than 5 % regardless, maybe around 10 or even 15 % depending on the fight and wasn't the first time fire mages got nerfed for scaling so well. And no, I didn't just read the change on a spell

8. Scaling: How much your class improves in DPS with stats, not how good/bad you are compared to OTHERS.

If you can prove that all the stats you do get with a total 13 ilevel upgrade (even more if you factor in heroic) within a single tier, makes little impact to your spec's total DPS, then you have a gripe. Saying you are X% behind Y class/spec, isn't what he is wanting by that statement. He wants to know "Does your spec not improve much in DPS/Healing/Survivability based on earning an entire raid tier worth of stats?".

9. Originally Posted by ZeroEdgeir
Scaling: How much your class improves in DPS with stats, not how good/bad you are compared to OTHERS.

If you can prove that all the stats you do get with a total 13 ilevel upgrade (even more if you factor in heroic) within a single tier, makes little impact to your spec's total DPS, then you have a gripe. Saying you are X% behind Y class/spec, isn't what he is wanting by that statement. He wants to know "Does your spec not improve much in DPS/Healing/Survivability based on earning an entire raid tier worth of stats?".
Run simcraft in 463 blues, 489 purples and 512/520 upgraded items.

Now tell me the gap doesnt widen.

10. Originally Posted by Sarevokcz
Run simcraft in 463 blues, 489 purples and 512/520 upgraded items.

Now tell me the gap doesnt widen.
489 - 463 =/= 13 or less

Hell 463 isn't even an epic which would be budgeted differently than a rare.

11. Originally Posted by Xeraxis
489 - 463 =/= 13 or less

Hell 463 isn't even an epic which would be budgeted differently than a rare.
Yep, thats why some people wear BiS blues in challenge modes. I understand where you're coming from, but please just stop posting.

12. We shamans are not crying enough, it seems sometimes.

13. I'm pretty sure he's talking about specs within a class, such as if fire mages were to scale too well compared to arcane and thus arcane would be silly to pick in that tier. Pretty sure you're talking about how one class scales compared to another. That's an entirely different animal.

Originally Posted by Summerwind
Yeah but fire mages get 20 % nerfs every few months so... :P

I don't get why GC is talking about a 13 ilvl difference anyways since one tier now seems to be 496 -> 522 = 26 ilvls...?
He said "say 13 levels or so." - So it's just an example.

14. Originally Posted by UcanDoSht
Yep, thats why some people wear BiS blues in challenge modes. I understand where you're coming from, but please just stop posting.
GC's post has nothing to do with downscaling for CMs. You're going to have to try and read the blue posts if you want to discuss them.

15. Originally Posted by Sarac
And yes, fire mages do scale a lot...but I can't say ele is different.
Put 100% Haste; 100% Crit and give 10k Mastery Rating to a Fire Mage and an Elemental.

Fire Mage will go on a Dps Rampage while Elemental will start to stagnate.

Altough this example rarely exists in reality, it shows that Elemental won't scale as good as Fire Mage with higher Stat rating.

Obviously this example is outside of Bl and other procs / special buffs not entirely true, it still shows that with high gear lvl Elemental scaling starts to stagnate while other class(es) continue.

Though Elemental has a bit of History of not so good scaling, /wave Shamanism.

And Blizzard likes to put Haste Buffs / Proc trinkets into the game for Caster, doesn't help that much on this.

16. Originally Posted by Xeraxis
GC's post has nothing to do with downscaling for CMs. You're going to have to try and read the blue posts if you want to discuss them.
I was referring to the bolded part, which is wrong. Consider to stop posting, please.

17. Originally Posted by Xeraxis
489 - 463 =/= 13 or less

Hell 463 isn't even an epic which would be budgeted differently than a rare.
its still one tier. GCs arbitrary 13 ilev difference is just that. arbitrary.

And please, dont post "facts" if you have no clue how items are budgeted. purples are no longer "extra" budgeted, for TWO EXPANSIONS already, the only difference between 500 green and 500 purple would be disenchant mats. But it wasnt on MMO front page, so it its a lie! ...

18. Originally Posted by UcanDoSht
I was referring to the bolded part, which is wrong. Consider to stop posting, please.
And you'd still be wrong. The reason people wear blues for CMs is so that they don't suffer from stat down scaling and can control how their stats are allocated. I understand it hurts to be wrong but you need to accept it preferably sooner rather than later. This issue isn't the issue you think it is and you may want to read the blue post more thoroughly next time.

19. Originally Posted by Xeraxis
489 - 463 =/= 13 or less

Hell 463 isn't even an epic which would be budgeted differently than a rare.
Rares and epics have had the same budget since cata. The only thing that matters now is ilvl and sockets.
Also, why 13 ilvls when we're gaining 26 ilvls?

20. Originally Posted by UcanDoSht
I was referring to the bolded part, which is wrong. Consider to stop posting, please.
Which has nothing to do with your topic, quite honestly. Class scaling isn't exactly tuned for Challenge Modes... it's tuned for raids. You want to prove that shaman scaling makes them drop low enough that they should be buffed? Do it. Don't attack other user's credibility.

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