Shaman and Warlocks should have a 4th spec too?

[Venziir]

I think we can both agree that FS is WAY more important to Elemental DPS than to Enhance DPS.



Those aren't air abilities. Those are passive buffs to spells. The exclusive air ability in Elemental is Thunderstorm. Lightning Bolt and Chain lightning aren't exclusive to Elemental Shaman. Now granted, Elemental has passives that buff those abilities, but its for the purpose of making Elemental a more effective spellcaster, and many of those buffs also improve Lava Burst. Like I said before, the core of the spec is Lava Burst. Which is why when Shaman enter ascendant form, they become the Flame Ascendant, not the Lightning ascendant.

exactly! LB and CL aren't exclusive because they are equalitys important to all specs of the shaman because air, thunder and ligtning is THE core of the shaman - all specs use some form of air in their repertoire of magic, not just enhancement.

---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 12:50 AM ----------

Again, its filler. LB, CL, Shocks, etc. are just ways to pass the time until your next Lava Surge rolls in. Hell, some Ele shaman have completely replaced Lightning Bolt with Elemental Blast because it hits harder and gives them a buff. PvP Shaman especially. Despite EB's CD, Lava Surge procs so often that it doesn't matter.

---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 11:43 PM ----------



Where did I make up rules? Enhance's exclusive passives only buff Enhance-exclusive abilities. You're pointing out passives that benefit abilities that every Shaman has.

only an idiot would replicerer LB with Eb in pve. Sure, 1 eb hits harder than 1 LB, but again EB has a cd, LB does not.... You do the math....

[Pum]

Ligtning Bolt doesn't have an 8sec cd, therefor you cast it a lot more.

What's your #1 damage ability on your meters?

---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 11:52 PM ----------

Again, its filler. LB, CL, Shocks, etc. are just ways to pass the time until your next Lava Surge rolls in. Hell, some Ele shaman have completely replaced Lightning Bolt with Elemental Blast because it hits harder and gives them a buff. PvP Shaman especially. Despite EB's CD, Lava Surge procs so often that it doesn't matter.

This isn't true.

[Klingers]

Shaman are masters of the four elements (earth, fire, wind, water), yet only 3 elements are fully represented. Elemental is fire, Enhancement is wind, and Restoration is water. This is backed by their dominant abilities, Ascendant forms, and weapon imbues. There is no Earth spec because Earth represents defense and protection. Its a pretty silly omission, but it makes sense given the 3 spec limit. 4 specs would flesh out all the elements, and make Shaman a more complete class.

I have to say that I really liked your post, even if I don't really have an opinion on much in relation to these (and my main is a Warlock too funnily enough). But I do have one thing to say: The above paragraph is one of the best articulated arguments for Shaman tanking I've ever seen from a lore perspective. It makes perfect sense. Nice job.

[Pum]

Flame shock to elemental is what flame shock is to enh....a dot.

Also, you ignored that Elemental has more exclusive air abilities than fire which would signify that air is extremely important to both.

No because FS to Enh has no-where near the same importance as FS is to Elemental.

And it doesn't really matter if he's ignoring that specific post, because obviously Ele uses spells from air just as Enh uses spells from fire, the point the OP is trying to make which is evidently eluding you and Venziir, is the fact that air is not the FOCAL point of Elemental, fire is.

[Jtree]

Well this thread started interesting, but took a wrong turn on all this shaman spec theme/spell arguing.

To the real matter at hand, I have posted many times before that I am all for additional specs, and offering hybridity to to some or all pure DPSers. Shaman and warlock tanking are two obvious places to start. Both have flirted with tanking over the game's history, and with the new active mitigation method of tanking they could be made to work in interesting
For shaman, I'd like to see them dual wield tanking, relying on earth and frost spells. In many ways, they could be a throwback to Wrath-era frost DK tanks. For the lock tank, I would rather they differentiate it from demo (and delete the glyph). New secondary resource, and perhaps focused on drain spells. They could have increased avoidance or mitigation while channeling.

As for gear, shaman are easy. Agility gear, with avoidance gained much the same as druids and monks. Locks will be trickier, but as a start they could use spirit as a tanking stat. This gives the tank spec a different gear need than DPS specs, like all the plate tanks, and gives some competition to priests for spirit gear.

[Deleted]

I haven't read the whole thread, and the very detailed minutiae that's come out. But as a general response: absolutely, yes, definitely. Totally support this.

Monks as well, they need a ranged spec.

And another fuck yes for this. I'll never understand how Blizzard looked at class distribution in late cata, saw how much less desirable melee were than ranged, and how there were an equal number of melee and ranged dps specs, and introduced another melee class. I don't understand Blizzard's hostility to giving paladins a viable shockadin spec which would have really made things exciting. Last two new classes we've had have been melee. I've been playing since vanilla, have played all the ranged specs and only really enjoy a couple; the game is stale and uninteresting now. A new range class, or reworking of an existing melee class to give it a ranged spec (ie shockadin!) would bring the game back to life again, give something exiting to play. If it's true that monks are so dramatically underplayed, I hope Blizzard learn from this and do things better next time.

[Teriz]

I have to say that I really liked your post, even if I don't really have an opinion on much in relation to these (and my main is a Warlock too funnily enough). But I do have one thing to say: The above paragraph is one of the best articulated arguments for Shaman tanking I've ever seen from a lore perspective. It makes perfect sense. Nice job.

Thank you. It's pretty obvious that a lot of Shaman desire a tank spec. Which leads me to believe that a lot of shaman feel that something is missing from their class. 4th spec would solve many shaman issues.

[Dizzion]

The case for a Warlock 4th spec is even easier to make. Again DA is pretty much a separate Warlock spec wrapped up entirely in a glyph. DA not only gives the Warlock unique stats, it also gives them unique abilities as well. Abilities that can only be activated by using the glyph. Blizzard however decided that glyphs shouldn't determine a tank spec. A good decision, but then why not just give locks a 4th spec so that Warlocks could tank, and the traditional DPS specs could be preserved? It's a win-win for everyone involved. It certainly helps that DA is reminiscent of Dreadlords from WC3, which is cool in its own right. I would hate to see DA's uniqueness get destroyed in the next expansion because Blizzard can't do anything with it because of the 3 spec system.

This is True that DA glyph is allowing warlocks to tank including mine but I think that DA is not the warlock tank SPEC equivalent. A warlock tank would be ether a life drain tank or would be a demon hunter. The problem there is Demon Hunter would require more class revamp than Mists gave us. Keeping it the way it is now does not fit the demonology magic tanking style in the game they are dual wield agi/int users that use melee prowess and demonic magic to rip at their foes with speed, accuracy and vigilance. Basically they use the melee prowess to tank the foe then use their demonic energy to create a defense against the foe. Using a main hand - offhand normal caster set would not work really in that you can not melee with the off hand and staves ..... No Just no.... I think it is needed I just don't think it actually fits I would rather see the Demon Hunter Class in the next expansion with melee, tank and ranged specs. So if the warlock tank were to come in as 4th spec with all the other 4th specs if would be a life drain spec that utilizes dots to gather life from the foe that could be store and then consumed when you needed it.

[Teriz]

This is True that DA glyph is allowing warlocks to tank including mine but I think that DA is not the warlock tank SPEC equivalent. A warlock tank would be ether a life drain tank or would be a demon hunter. The problem there is Demon Hunter would require more class revamp than Mists gave us. Keeping it the way it is now does not fit the demonology magic tanking style in the game they are dual wield agi/int users that use melee prowess and demonic magic to rip at their foes with speed, accuracy and vigilance. Basically they use the melee prowess to tank the foe then use their demonic energy to create a defense against the foe. Using a main hand - offhand normal caster set would not work really in that you can not melee with the off hand and staves ..... No Just no.... I think it is needed I just don't think it actually fits I would rather see the Demon Hunter Class in the next expansion with melee, tank and ranged specs. So if the warlock tank were to come in as 4th spec with all the other 4th specs if would be a life drain spec that utilizes dots to gather life from the foe that could be store and then consumed when you needed it.

Well DA was a very effective tank in beta. The only reason it was snuffed was because Blizzard felt that you shouldn't switch from DPS to tanking via a glyph. They felt that tanking required much more of a commitment than that. So it really had little to do with mechanics. It was all about Blizzard not wanting to destroy Demonology DPS, and believing that Warlock tanking should require more than a simple glyph to activate.

Which is again why a Warlock 4th spec makes sense. Clearly Warlocks want a tanking spec given the passionate response from Warlock players, and Warlock players still attempting to tank with DA even though it was nerfed into the dirt. A 4th spec would not only allow Warlocks to tank, but it would preserve the other 3 DPS specs that Warlocks clearly love and enjoy.

Like I said in the OP, I would hate to see DA get dismantled because Blizzard can't figure out what to do with it. It is an amazing and fun playstyle.

---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 01:48 PM ----------

I haven't read the whole thread, and the very detailed minutiae that's come out. But as a general response: absolutely, yes, definitely. Totally support this.



And another fuck yes for this. I'll never understand how Blizzard looked at class distribution in late cata, saw how much less desirable melee were than ranged, and how there were an equal number of melee and ranged dps specs, and introduced another melee class. I don't understand Blizzard's hostility to giving paladins a viable shockadin spec which would have really made things exciting. Last two new classes we've had have been melee. I've been playing since vanilla, have played all the ranged specs and only really enjoy a couple; the game is stale and uninteresting now. A new range class, or reworking of an existing melee class to give it a ranged spec (ie shockadin!) would bring the game back to life again, give something exiting to play. If it's true that monks are so dramatically underplayed, I hope Blizzard learn from this and do things better next time.

I would really love to see this actually. There are four august celestials, and the Red Crane CLEARLY has its own Monks protecting it. So again, this shows the flaw of the 3 spec system because Blizzard could have easily implemented a 4th spec dealing with Crane Monks, but since there is only three available specs, they just went with three of the celestials without a hint of Crane-style Pandaren martial arts. Because of that, Monks are in a similar boat with Shaman because their lore STRONGLY supports 4 specs.

Granted, Shaman have a slightly stronger case because of the various skills that are sitting in their toolkit that serve no purpose because Blizzard refuses to make them a tank class. However, Monks have a pretty solid case as well.

Here's a thread where I discussed Red Crane Monks. We came up with some really good ideas;

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...Monk-be-called

[Dizzion]

Well DA was a very effective tank in beta. The only reason it was snuffed was because Blizzard felt that you shouldn't switch from DPS to tanking via a glyph. They felt that tanking required much more of a commitment than that. So it really had little to do with mechanics. It was all about Blizzard not wanting to destroy Demonology DPS, and believing that Warlock tanking should require more than a simple glyph to activate.

Which is again why a Warlock 4th spec makes sense. Clearly Warlocks want a tanking spec given the passionate response from Warlock players, and Warlock players still attempting to tank with DA even though it was nerfed into the dirt. A 4th spec would not only allow Warlocks to tank, but it would preserve the other 3 DPS specs that Warlocks clearly love and enjoy.

Like I said in the OP, I would hate to see DA get dismantled because Blizzard can't figure out what to do with it. It is an amazing and fun playstyle.[COLOR="red"]

You didn't read my post obviously I said that a warlock tank spec is a great idea but from a lore to class perspective the DA glyph is not where they would end up being tanks it would a be a drain life tank. Mechanics had nothing to do with my post; a tank that uses demonic magic is called a demon hunter who dual wields swords and uses demonic magic and attack speed to ripe foes and keep their attention. DA is not the answer to warlock tanking. I do want it but I think I would rather have a Demon Hunter class with more lore and story.