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  1. #1
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Shaman and Warlocks should have a 4th spec too?

    Druids have 4th spec because they had a DPS and a tanking spec in a single tree. A good argument, but what about Shaman and Warlocks? Shaman tanking threads pop up numerous times on the Shaman forums here on MMOC, and they pop up numerous times on the official forums. Warlocks have almost an entirely 4th spec with Dark Apotheosis, which makes adding another spec for them seemingly a no-brainer.

    At one time, Shaman were a tank on the same level as Protection Paladins and Bear Druids in vanilla. In fact, Shaman were originally the opposite of Paladins. Both classes were supposed to be mirrors of each other, with Shaman being horde-only and Paladins being alliance-only. However, Blizzard eventually reduced Shaman's capability to tank, and reduced Shaman tanking ability over the course of subsequent expansions. Along with this reduction came the slow loss of the Shaman tanking abilities and talents. I definitely feel that Blizzard's decision to grant Paladins and Shaman to both factions, and make Shaman and Paladin completely different classes was a good idea. However, dismantling Shaman tanking was a pretty bad idea, and has led to some pretty wonky class design ever since.

    Shaman are masters of the four elements (earth, fire, wind, water), yet only 3 elements are fully represented. Elemental is fire, Enhancement is wind, and Restoration is water. This is backed by their dominant abilities, Ascendant forms, and weapon imbues. There is no Earth spec because Earth represents defense and protection. Its a pretty silly omission, but it makes sense given the 3 spec limit. 4 specs would flesh out all the elements, and make Shaman a more complete class.

    Finally, there's quite a few abilities in the Shaman toolkit that just seem out of place. The biggest example of this is Rockbiter weapon. This is the only weapon imbue that has no clear purpose. Flametongue is the Elemental primary imbue (and the secondary imbue for Enhance). Windfury is the primary Enhance imbue. Earth Living is the primary imbue for Restoration. Frostbrand is the PvP imbue. Rockbiter? You supposedly use it in the rare case of saving the healer from death or something... Rockbiter even has a taunt when it is unleashed, and the talent Unleashed Fury reduces damage by a further 40%. A great utility that most Shaman never use.

    The case for a Warlock 4th spec is even easier to make. Again DA is pretty much a separate Warlock spec wrapped up entirely in a glyph. DA not only gives the Warlock unique stats, it also gives them unique abilities as well. Abilities that can only be activated by using the glyph. Blizzard however decided that glyphs shouldn't determine a tank spec. A good decision, but then why not just give locks a 4th spec so that Warlocks could tank, and the traditional DPS specs could be preserved? It's a win-win for everyone involved. It certainly helps that DA is reminiscent of Dreadlords from WC3, which is cool in its own right. I would hate to see DA's uniqueness get destroyed in the next expansion because Blizzard can't do anything with it because of the 3 spec system.

    If we can't have all classes getting 4th spec due to balance reasons, we should at least consider 4th specs for classes that need them the most. That would be Shaman and Warlocks.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-02-08 at 03:11 AM.

  2. #2
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    Monks as well, they need a ranged spec.

  3. #3
    I'm confused at the part where you say Elemental is fire and Enhancement is wind. The last time I checked, Ele's use Fire, Wind, and Earth (fullmination) and Enhanceys use Fire (Flame Shock / Lava lash) and Wind together. So, Earth is being used, just not the way you wish it to be. And, on a side note, Restos have Earth Shield, which is used to protect the target, although it is efficient for their heals, there are still flying rocky chunkys.

  4. #4
    Warchief Voyager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caddo View Post
    I'm confused at the part where you say Elemental is fire and Enhancement is wind. The last time I checked, Ele's use Fire, Wind, and Earth (fullmination) and Enhanceys use Fire (Flame Shock / Lava lash) and Wind together. So, Earth is being used, just not the way you wish it to be.
    Fire Ascendant.

  5. #5
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caddo View Post
    I'm confused at the part where you say Elemental is fire and Enhancement is wind. The last time I checked, Ele's use Fire, Wind, and Earth (fullmination) and Enhanceys use Fire (Flame Shock / Lava lash) and Wind together. So, Earth is being used, just not the way you wish it to be.
    Elemental's primary method of attack is Flame Shock and Lava Burst. They also imbue their weapons with flametongue and Ascendance is called the Flame Ascendant.

    Enhance's primary method of attack is flurry, static shock, Stormstrike, and windfury procs. They also utilize maelstrom weapon which is wind based and reduces cast time and mana cost. Finally their primary imbue is windfury weapon, and their Ascendant form is the Wind Ascendant.

    Granted each spec an also use other elements. Just like all priests can use Shadow abilities.

  6. #6
    Why do shamans/warlocks need a 4th spec more than any other class? Rogue? what about them? Where's warriors 4th spec, they should be able to heal they have healing talents already!?! Oh and hunter, they should have a tank or healer spec too.

  7. #7
    You start another 4th spec thread, I'll respond the same way. Give classes that touch on three of the 4 spec types, the 4th they don't have. The 4 being Tank, Heals, Melee and Ranged. Give shaman tanking, and Paladins and Monks a ranged spell caster spec. Beyond that, its goofy. Locks are pure dps, and clothies at that. Tanking doesn't make sense. Again rogues are pure dps, just like mages, and while classes like warriors, dks, and priest have two roles, they just aren't hybrid-y enough. I promise if blizz is to add any more 4th specs it will be only to Shaman, Pallies and Monks to finish balancing the more hybridy classes.

  8. #8
    Moderator Kerdoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vixene View Post
    Why do shamans/warlocks need a 4th spec more than any other class? Rogue? what about them? Where's warriors 4th spec, they should be able to heal they have healing talents already!?! Oh and hunter, they should have a tank or healer spec too.
    Except that the OP has some valid opinions. You are just grabbing random things to show that you think this is a stupid idea.

  9. #9
    Brewmaster cyqu's Avatar
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    ok, but feral druids were actually a tanking class, enhance and demo is not

  10. #10
    Moderator Kerdoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyqu View Post
    ok, but feral druids were actually a tanking class, enhance and demo is not
    Well if feels kinda wierd that we have Rockbiter weapon that increases threat. But we can't tank

  11. #11
    The dev that was in charge of leading the overhaul of warlocks has said in a post not too long ago that he very seriously made plans to turn Demonology into a tanking spec. Through various stages that plan got scrapped and the remnants turned into the tanking glyph we now have, but it was a very real plan at one point. Given the mostly positive feedback Blizz got on the idea during beta I don't think they've forgotten it, and will possibly keep it in mind when making plans for either warlocks, or possibly a Demon Hunter class in the future. I don't expect this to be any time soon though.
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  12. #12
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyqu View Post
    ok, but feral druids were actually a tanking class, enhance and demo is not
    Again, in vanilla, Enhancement Shaman were in the same boat as Feral Druids. The old Enhancement tree was a hybrid of tanking and DPS. As the expansions kept moving forward, more and more tanking abilities were removed as Enhance became more DPS oriented. The problem is that the class has "vestigial abilities" that just don't make sense in terms of gameplay. Shaman's ability to equip shields for example, yet having no abilities or talents that benefit shields. Rockbiter weapon having no real purpose, despite Blizzard continuing to make talents and abilities that benefit it because if they remove it, there will be no earth-based imbue. However, if they change it to something else, it'll conflict with the DPS imbues and force them to redesign the specs.

    Warlocks are an even easier case to make because they have an entire spec locked into a glyph. Again, I would hate to see DA get removed from the game because Blizzard can't fit it anywhere for the next expansion.

  13. #13
    The Patient Robles's Avatar
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    I agree with Shamans...because your points are valid.

    Finally someone who posted a thread with non existent facts and knowledge for once.

    Seriously, Shamans are missing Earth.

    It makes PERFECT sense.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Druids have 4th spec because they had a DPS and a tanking spec in a single tree. A good argument, but what about Shaman and Warlocks? Shaman tanking threads pop up numerous times on the Shaman forums here on MMOC, and they pop up numerous times on the official forums. Warlocks have almost an entirely 4th spec with Dark Apotheosis, which makes adding another spec for them seemingly a no-brainer.

    At one time, Shaman were a tank on the same level as Protection Paladins and Bear Druids in vanilla. In fact, Shaman were originally the opposite of Paladins. Both classes were supposed to be mirrors of each other, with Shaman being horde-only and Paladins being alliance-only. However, Blizzard eventually reduced Shaman's capability to tank, and reduced Shaman tanking ability over the course of subsequent expansions. Along with this reduction came the slow loss of the Shaman tanking abilities and talents. I definitely feel that Blizzard's decision to grant Paladins and Shaman to both factions, and make Shaman and Paladin completely different classes was a good idea. However, dismantling Shaman tanking was a pretty bad idea, and has led to some pretty wonky class design ever since.

    Shaman are masters of the four elements (earth, fire, wind, water), yet only 3 elements are fully represented. Elemental is fire, Enhancement is wind, and Restoration is water. This is backed by their dominant abilities, Ascendant forms, and weapon imbues. There is no Earth spec because Earth represents defense and protection. Its a pretty silly omission, but it makes sense given the 3 spec limit. 4 specs would flesh out all the elements, and make Shaman a more complete class.

    Finally, there's quite a few abilities in the Shaman toolkit that just seem out of place. The biggest example of this is Rockbiter weapon. This is the only weapon imbue that has no clear purpose. Flametongue is the Elemental primary imbue (and the secondary imbue for Enhance). Windfury is the primary Enhance imbue. Earth Living is the primary imbue for Restoration. Frostbrand is the PvP imbue. Rockbiter? You supposedly use it in the rare case of saving the healer from death or something... Rockbiter even has a taunt when it is unleashed, and the talent Unleashed Fury reduces damage by a further 40%. A great utility that most Shaman never use.

    The case for a Warlock 4th spec is even easier to make. Again DA is pretty much a separate Warlock spec wrapped up entirely in a glyph. DA not only gives the Warlock unique stats, it also gives them unique abilities as well. Abilities that can only be activated by using the glyph. Blizzard however decided that glyphs shouldn't determine a tank spec. A good decision, but then why not just give locks a 4th spec so that Warlocks could tank, and the traditional DPS specs could be preserved? It's a win-win for everyone involved. It certainly helps that DA is reminiscent of Dreadlords from WC3, which is cool in its own right. I would hate to see DA's uniqueness get destroyed in the next expansion because Blizzard can't do anything with it because of the 3 spec system.

    If we can't have all classes getting 4th spec due to balance reasons, we should at least consider 4th specs for classes that need them the most. That would be Shaman and Warlocks.
    I agree completely. You show a valid argument, especially for shaman.

  15. #15
    All classes could benefit from a 4th spec imo in addition to the specs you have mentioned.

    DK - Runemaster - Ranged DPS (uses intellect plate)
    Mage - Timeweaver - Healer (Heals by altering time, cauterizing wounds and prevents damage with frost walls/shields)
    Hunter - Beastmaster - Tank, alter the spec for tanking from the pets perspective.
    - Ranger - A hunter spec without the pet
    Paladin - Avenger - Ranged DPS
    Rogue - Brawler - Tank, based heavily around cooldown usage and disabling/weakening enemies.
    Warrior - Bandage Spec - Healer, Just kidding, don't have a good idea here. (seriously though something to give them a ranged dps spec)
    Monk - Windweaver - Ranged DPS that strikes the air with precision to cast gusts of wind.
    Priest - Radiance - Ranged DPS with holy damage components.
    Warlock - Covered by OP
    Shaman - Covered by OP
    Druid - already have 4 specs

    I know not all of these ideas are stellar, but expanding many of the classes that lack a ranged dps spec or tanking/healing spec would be healthy for the game imo. The new talent system has made specs so much easier to manage than before. The main focus of this idea is the removal of 'pure' dps.
    Last edited by -ex-; 2013-02-08 at 03:31 AM.

  16. #16
    Pit Lord Khaza-R's Avatar
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    Shaman didn't lose their off-tank abilities in future expansions they literally lost almost all of them by their patch 1.11 rework. In fact the only talent they kept was the low tier increase block talent what was meant to synergize with resto.

    I'm not totally opposed to the idea of 4th specs, but if we're gonna use vanilla skill and talent design as a measure of who deserves one than I guess we need melee hunters because of Lacerate, or wand dps priests because of old Inner Fire and Wand Specialization.
    Last edited by Khaza-R; 2013-02-08 at 03:59 AM.

  17. #17
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    Shaman didn't lose their off-tank abilities in future expansions they literally lost almost all of them by their patch 1.11 rework. In fact the only talent they kept was the low tier increase block talent what was meant to synergize with resto.

    I'm not totally opposed to the idea of 4th specs, but if we're gonna use vanilla skill and talent design as a measure of who deserves one than I guess we need melee hunters because of Lacerate, or wand dps priests because of old Inner Fire and Wand Specialization.
    Actually they had toughness (increased armor), anticipation (increased dodge), talents that increased the power of their defensive and offensive totems in the burning crusade.

  18. #18
    Pit Lord Khaza-R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually they had toughness (increased armor), anticipation (increased dodge), talents that increased the power of their defensive and offensive totems in the burning crusade.
    Actually, you are quite right. Just saw that now.

    Nonetheless, while I like the idea of splitting Shaman specs to represent the four elements, what uniqueness do you think Shaman tanks would bring to the table?

  19. #19
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -ex- View Post
    All classes could benefit from a 4th spec imo in addition to the specs you have mentioned.

    DK - Runemaster - Ranged DPS (uses intellect plate)
    Mage - Timeweaver - Healer (Heals by altering time, cauterizing wounds and prevents damage with frost walls/shields)
    Hunter - Beastmaster - Tank, alter the spec for tanking from the pets perspective.
    - Ranger - A hunter spec without the pet
    Paladin - Avenger - Ranged DPS
    Rogue - Brawler - Tank, based heavily around cooldown usage and disabling/weakening enemies.
    Warrior - Bandage Spec - Healer, Just kidding, don't have a good idea here. (seriously though something to give them a ranged dps spec)
    Monk - Windweaver - Ranged DPS that strikes the air with precision to cast gusts of wind.
    Priest - Radiance - Ranged DPS with holy damage components.
    Warlock - Covered by OP
    Shaman - Covered by OP
    Druid - already have 4 specs

    I know not all of these ideas are stellar, but expanding many of the classes that lack a ranged dps spec or tanking/healing spec would be healthy for the game imo. The new talent system has made specs so much easier to manage than before. The main focus of this idea is the removal of 'pure' dps.
    ive mained a warrior since bc through the end of cata, and i honestly don't believe they need a 4th spec. But if given one, it absolutely doesn't need to be a ranged spec. It would defy the archetype to feel like a stranger.

    Hunters feel the same way tanking or healing; defies the archetype to an overreachingly bland level of homogenization.

    Priests smite-spec should be a hybrid-dps and heal spec, i dont think radiance sounds like a 'specialization' name. Maybe "Purification" or something. Disc should be more about healing by mitigation, leaving the smite-spec option open.

    I believe I read mention a Tempest ranged paladin spec; I believe that might make paladins interesting enough to reroll.

    Rogue's another class that won't work under just about any ranged spec suggestion. A ranged spec might fit their class archetype (ranged assassin type deal), but probably still awkward to play. and most rogue's would be forced into that spec because of demand for ranged dps over melee in raids.

    Mage 4th spec options are pretty much limitless.

    Any not covered I really don't have much to say about.
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  20. #20
    OP is TL; DR for me atm, but I do think Shaman and I guess Locks should get a tank spec.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 05:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by -ex- View Post
    All classes could benefit from a 4th spec imo in addition to the specs you have mentioned.

    DK - Runemaster - Ranged DPS (uses intellect plate)
    Mage - Timeweaver - Healer (Heals by altering time, cauterizing wounds and prevents damage with frost walls/shields)
    Hunter - Beastmaster - Tank, alter the spec for tanking from the pets perspective.
    - Ranger - A hunter spec without the pet
    Paladin - Avenger - Ranged DPS
    Rogue - Brawler - Tank, based heavily around cooldown usage and disabling/weakening enemies.
    Warrior - Bandage Spec - Healer, Just kidding, don't have a good idea here. (seriously though something to give them a ranged dps spec)
    Monk - Windweaver - Ranged DPS that strikes the air with precision to cast gusts of wind.
    Priest - Radiance - Ranged DPS with holy damage components.
    Warlock - Covered by OP
    Shaman - Covered by OP
    Druid - already have 4 specs

    I know not all of these ideas are stellar, but expanding many of the classes that lack a ranged dps spec or tanking/healing spec would be healthy for the game imo. The new talent system has made specs so much easier to manage than before. The main focus of this idea is the removal of 'pure' dps.
    Actually I agree with all of these.
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