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  1. #41
    Shunning such a person is human nature and happens in the animal-kingdom aswell. The strong survive and the weak perish or get "banished" from the group.

    I am not condoning this behavior btw. I am just stating this cause some people seem very shocked. Why would you be shocked? How were you when you were a kid in class? Were you the bully or the victim? Or did you stand by and let others bully others? WoW is no different, add anonimity and you get the place WoW is.

    This behavior has nothing to do with the WoW community. It is human nature. Much like Kenjen (and I said aswell in another thread) - when you have almost no features of control (like rules/laws/punishment/reward) to enforce a certain behavior, you will end up with stuff like this.

    Is it good? No ofcourse not. Is it an excuse? No it is not, it is a consequence.

    That said, I've seen many people like this "outcast warrior" during my travels in Azeroth. Sometimes I would help them. But people like this (in general) tend to stick to people that helped them. Which is normal/logical. But after I help somebody cause I feel bad for that person, doesn't mean that I want to be their best friend.
    So sometimes I just ignored (not /ignore) people requiring help cause I couldn't at that particular time, deal with (in the end) telling the guy I didn't want to be his best buddy.

    But yes some people do pull themselves out of the shit they are in with a little help from another player. I've seen and experienced it. That said, most of the time it is that a player sucks because he just can't be arsed checking sites. Regardless what your goal is in this game (be it RP/PvP/PvE), no one likes to suck right or be told he sucks? So if you regularly get told you suck, wouldn't you want to improve (if you were oblivious to that fact yourself)? I am certain that the answer would be yes.

    And this guy as I understood it, did in fact tried to improve, yet failed. So yes it is very bad of the community to treat him like they did imo. But then again, how could they know? No one apart from one guy appearantly actually talked to and believed his story. The game is so easy to a lot of people that they cannot believe that some would suck so bad. If you're in 496 gear and do around 30.000 dps, I can understand that the community shunned this person. No one would like to play with such a player unless you actually understood why this was or believed his problems. Everyone (except a few) would assume that he is just a lazy and bad player.

    I am sure a lot more people could accept a bad player who actually tried very hard to be better, but couldn't because he had no proper guidance, in a raid/guild/party. Ofcourse there will always be people who just frown upon the bad and treat them all the same way.

    I really liked this post. I hope it will open a lot of eyes and hearts. I also hope "the bad/lazy" will not misuse this thread to suddenly be accepted into guilds though.
    Last edited by Vaelorian; 2013-02-08 at 08:46 AM.

  2. #42
    Maybe it's not as easy to be a gold farmer/ seller in Korea any more, and so the playing the game decreased over there. Some people were making a living off of that, but it's so easy to get gold in wow yourself now.

    As for this story, that does touch my heart a bit. Sometimes, all people need is a friend, or a helpful push in the right direction.

    I started playing September of '05, and I was clueless. The game brought me such joy. I had never experienced a true MMO before, so I think I spent my first 24 hours exploring. I used to make my RL friend that started before me angry.

    I ground my way up from 1-40 as a Warlock, melee-ing things. I'd pick a zone that had mobs of appropriate level, send my voidwalker in, and i'd put my curses up on it and whack it with my staff until dead.
    I never did any quests.

    I met a kind Warlock in a group once, and he patiently asked me what I was doing and why, and he wouldn't discourage me from what I was doing, but he would offer tips.

    The community was more mature, for the most part. I went into a dungeon and soulstoned myself. Someone sighed and explained to me why we don't do that. Everyone helped me understand my role and what I should be doing. That doesn't happen much now-a-days.

    I try and help if someone asks, but there are also those that don't listen.
    Last edited by DomesticViolence; 2013-02-08 at 08:57 AM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by forwards1ca View Post
    Whiel I kinda feel a bit bad for the guy, any sympathy I have for him is mitigated by the fact that there is so much info out there on how to play, how to gem/reforge, etc, that I honestly feel like you have to actively try to be bad. Esecially seeing as the game has become so ridiculously easy to play now as compared to back in the BC days. I honestly feel that if people want to to end game content, or high level pvp, they need to get their shit together and do some bloody research instead of relying on other eople to carry them. I applaud the guy for seekign out help, but why did it take so long? If he knew he had issues playing, he should have worked to rectify the issues. I know I sucked balls for my first while, but all it took was finding a couple of peopl ewho knew where to go to find info and a couple of hours of research and I became 1000% better at playing the game.
    Did you not read that everyone on the server pretty much hates him and has ignored him entirely? Who can he ask for advice when no one replies? If you read he says he read all the sites and still can't seem to figure it out. I've helped a few players over the years similar to the Warrior mentioned in the OP. Some of them were harder to work with than others but, it is well worth it in the end to help them improve and feel better about their ability.

  4. #44
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    Amazing story. I didn't cry, but I teared up a little. It's been so long I almost forgot what it was like to be a noob, and I think that's what's happened with a lot if not most people. We've been playing so long that we kind of expect everybody else to be as good as us, without remembering how long it took to become this good, and that we had help somewhere along the way. Great players are rarely born great. They become great after hard work, training, and a little help from the people they encounter along the way. We should all pass on a little of our knowledge to the new players of the game, so that when we've moved on, the era of great players doesn't end with us.

  5. #45
    Hmm. I feel this is very exaggerated. In the EU, we have plenty of guilds that help people and don't mind new people doing 'stupid' things or bad dps. I also wonder why this guy was so bad, that his dps was below the tank. He says he doesn't understand the websites, but come on, go to Noxxic, look at your rotation, put the spells on your bar in that other and smash them one by one. Everyone can do that and do average dps. Of course he won't be perfect, but good enough at least. You can also check what gems you need and what stats, I can't believe you wouldn't understand the phrase 'put strength gems in red sockets'... I just don't buy it, sorry.

    Other then that, yes, many people have little patience with bad players, but unfortunately many bad players have rotten attitudes, refuse to take advice and just say 'it's a game dude, f*ck off'. That makes people even less inclined to help the next bad player. Don't blame it all on the people who don't help.
    Arguing with a troll is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what you do or say, he will just knock over the pieces, take a shit on the board and strut around like he won the whole damn thing.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by lios View Post
    Hmm. I feel this is very exaggerated. In the EU, we have plenty of guilds that help people and don't mind new people doing 'stupid' things or bad dps. I also wonder why this guy was so bad, that his dps was below the tank. He says he doesn't understand the websites, but come on, go to Noxxic, look at your rotation, put the spells on your bar in that other and smash them one by one. Everyone can do that and do average dps. Of course he won't be perfect, but good enough at least. You can also check what gems you need and what stats, I can't believe you wouldn't understand the phrase 'put strength gems in red sockets'... I just don't buy it, sorry.

    Other then that, yes, many people have little patience with bad players, but unfortunately many bad players have rotten attitudes, refuse to take advice and just say 'it's a game dude, f*ck off'. That makes people even less inclined to help the next bad player. Don't blame it all on the people who don't help.
    Is noxxic in the Korean language?
    And sometimes people just don't get the websites or are overwhelmed with the information that is found. So they need someone to tell them personally and in a pace they can handle.... - I am sure you know people like that at work or at school

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Is noxxic in the Korean language?
    I'm sure there are similar sites in Korean, if he can't read English.

    And sometimes people just don't get the websites or are overwhelmed with the information that is found. So they need someone to tell them personally and in a pace they can handle.... - I am sure you know people like that at work or at school
    But, if people don't get it, can't improve, get shunned, etc, why do they even play? I suck at the Sims and couldn't improve, so I don't play that, as it's no fun at all to play a game that you suck at. Yet he keeps playing and apparently expects someone to take hours to explain the basics to him. He should either stick to quests and easy stuff, quit the game or figure out how to play. A little help here and there is just fine, answering specific questions is too, but hours to explain basic stuff? Come on.

    My husband has issues with learning boss fights by watching or reading about it. He can only learn by doing it. Even me explaining doesn't make him understand the fight completely. Yet he doesn't suck. He has his gear, rotation, etc. in order and after one or two tries at a boss, he knows what to avoid and what to do (as a tank, mind you). Of course he won't make the top guilds, but even with his limitation on learning, he does fine.
    Arguing with a troll is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what you do or say, he will just knock over the pieces, take a shit on the board and strut around like he won the whole damn thing.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by lios View Post
    But, if people don't get it, can't improve, get shunned, etc, why do they even play?
    I am not saying I disagree. But I can imagine that some people love Azeroth or questing. And I can imagine that some people who probably know they suck, would love raiding aswell. So I think that although I wouldn't agree personally with such a gaming philosophy myself, I can imagine other people finding this enough to keep on playing.

    However, if I was shunned by the entire server, I would have moved server ages ago.

    edit: Your husband has I guess the luck he is in a guild or group that allows him to practice on such bosses (and doesn't suck). This guy almost never (if I read correctly) gets invited to such groups. And as such cannot practice either.
    Sure you or me cannot really fathom why someone would suck so bad, but us not understanding doesn't make it so that the problem doesn't exist for some people
    Last edited by Vaelorian; 2013-02-08 at 09:21 AM.

  9. #49
    I don't understand how one can't improve if one really wants that inn wow. He can just read guides, look into addons and watch streams off wow if he never raided?

    I mean, great read, but getting decent at wow is nothing to hard, atleast not inn 4.2/4.3. NOT trying to be herp derp elitist here really...For once, these very forums are filled with good help and guides inn class forum, witch even helped me.

    Edit: It was something else being a noob back inn vanilla and maybe TBC. Most people we're just getting into hardcore PC gaming, and the internet was still growing to be this usefull machine that now days can help anyone.
    I do not hate wow. I'm just (was) very passionated about it. There is a difference. Everyone rants about thing's they think changed badly.

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  10. #50
    The Lightbringer Uennie's Avatar
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    I've always said this, and I'll stand by it. What's destroying World of Warcraft isn't the game, it's the community. However, no matter what the game does in the end they CAN NOT control the community, and I think a lot of people just can't understand that.

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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Uennie View Post
    I've always said this, and I'll stand by it. What's destroying World of Warcraft isn't the game, it's the community. However, no matter what the game does in the end they CAN NOT control the community, and I think a lot of people just can't understand that.
    Humans are humans. LFR/CRZ etc are features that remove control. So hence it is getting worse. If you can get away with being an ass without repurcussions you (in general) will be an ass much more likely.

    Control before was server reputation. You could only be an ass for so long. If you don't believe me there was such a thing as serverreputation - look at that thread named: "Meanwhile in Korea" that is very popular now. While it wasn't a perfect form of control, you cannot but agree that the features named before took away that last small bit of control.

  12. #52
    wow that warrior guy is about as beta as beta gets.

  13. #53
    Pit Lord Azerox's Avatar
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    Some people are so arrogant and full of themselfe because they are o so good, just disgusting.

    Most of those people sit behind theyr PC all day and think they are GOD > while they never see the sun or have RL friends.

    Anyway, i always help out newbs > giving advice and gold whole day long, linking them to guides that will help em out.

    Wish that more people would do that more often

    I have alot of people that have me in theyr friend list asking me for advice and stuff, even people i think of "omg u still dont know that after that many time aksing?"

    But im very patient, and keep learning them so they also can have fun, and not been cursed and sweared at when they do dungeons or a raid or ask for simple advice.

    If you ask in /2 these days for some info, wich seems obvious to those more intelligent or no-life people > they start NOOB GTFO etc etc.

    I mean, just help them out and stop being so arrogant.
    Last edited by Azerox; 2013-02-08 at 10:32 AM.
    Playing MMO's since 1997 ®
    Ultima Online > Everquest > Dark Age of Camelot > Lineage 2 > World of Warcraft.
    In between ofcourse all the other MMOs u can name. Those above spend atleast 1 year.

  14. #54
    This is inspiring. I can relate to the problem that was described, and I am so glad talking about it managed to create an opportunity for people to think about it.

    Thankfully european realms don't seem to be in such a bad state, yet, but the gap between elitist players and casuals seem to grow as time goes by. Ridiculously-high expectations to join PUGs, players quitting after a few wipes, people being ridiculed for as little as a single mistake in gemming, most being antisocial in a multiplayer game of all things, naming and shaming, etc; are things we have sadly learned to accept in a game that we are supposed to play for fun. Instead of opening up to playing with others we ignore them as long as we don't need them, which is disheartening. I remember some time ago when a low-level priest whispered me out of the blue. I didn't know him, or him me. He was new to the game and was asking for advice to playing a priest and the game in general. After we got to talking a bit he mentioned that he was trying to ask high-level priests all day long, and of the few thar responded to him I was the first that didn't just ask him to piss off... And I remember when I started playing, with a great selection of newby mistakes all around (not spending talent points, white quality gear is the best!, not using Vampiric Embrace when it was a debuff because 'It doesn't do damage!', etc) people would maybe sigh at times but would take the time to explain to me what I did wrong politely and would take it upon themselves to help me out. They would also be willing to keep in touch, even at a time where there was no Real ID. And now, if I meet someone who is polite and kind, I consider it a surprise. Goodness I miss those older times for that reason.

    Also:
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Shunning such a person is human nature and happens in the animal-kingdom aswell. The strong survive and the weak perish or get "banished" from the group.

    I am not condoning this behavior btw. I am just stating this cause some people seem very shocked. Why would you be shocked? How were you when you were a kid in class? Were you the bully or the victim? Or did you stand by and let others bully others? WoW is no different, add anonimity and you get the place WoW is.

    This behavior has nothing to do with the WoW community. It is human nature. Much like Kenjen (and I said aswell in another thread) - when you have almost no features of control (like rules/laws/punishment/reward) to enforce a certain behavior, you will end up with stuff like this.
    This behaviour is NOT natural. We are not animals. We have a highly functioning brain capable of self-awareness and critical thinking. "That is nature's way" is just an excuse for people that can't be bothered with such matters or, even worse, endorse such behaviours. And to answer your question: In school I was neither the bully or the victim, nor did I stand on the side when people were getting beaten up for no reason. Why is it so hard for some people to comprehend the choice of being helpful to others?! We are as much an animal as we let our selves become, not a single bit more. And anyone that just lets himself be like that willingly, without his demeanor being the result of inner struggles or lack of guidance (not law-prohibitions), is a sad excuse of an existence in my opinion. We have the choice of trying to be as good as possible, or just give in to petty urges and be #%$holes. Failing to try to be a decent person is not genes, it's just being a bad person.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-02-08 at 11:07 AM.

  15. #55
    I am Murloc! Ryme's Avatar
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    You know, even if this is an entirely orchestrated event, it hit deep.

    God I miss being new to this game I believe, at the very start, I clicked the spells in my spell book - did not even drag them to the bar to click them there. The world was so... huge, Durotar felt alien to my little undead warlock at level 8 like I had literally discovered a new world.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Hedleyazg View Post
    Sure there were mean people back in Vanilla but back then there were more people that would offer advice if you asked in trade instead of, "LOOK IT UP ON ELITIST JERKS NOOB!" Most players that didn't know how to play properly back then didn't jump down your throat when you offered them advice either. Try offering advice to someone in a random dungeon now and enjoy their insults. Each expansion the World of Warcraft community has become more and more toxic with players becoming more obsessed with getting gear for their toon than just having fun.
    Yeah no. Vanilla was never like that and I'm starting to think anyone making these claims never played back then and just simply parrot something they read from a blog without it having any basis in reality at all.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 05:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DomesticViolence View Post
    Maybe it's not as easy to be a gold farmer/ seller in Korea any more, and so the playing the game decreased over there. Some people were making a living off of that, but it's so easy to get gold in wow yourself now.

    As for this story, that does touch my heart a bit. Sometimes, all people need is a friend, or a helpful push in the right direction.

    I started playing September of '05, and I was clueless. The game brought me such joy. I had never experienced a true MMO before, so I think I spent my first 24 hours exploring. I used to make my RL friend that started before me angry.

    I ground my way up from 1-40 as a Warlock, melee-ing things. I'd pick a zone that had mobs of appropriate level, send my voidwalker in, and i'd put my curses up on it and whack it with my staff until dead.
    I never did any quests.

    I met a kind Warlock in a group once, and he patiently asked me what I was doing and why, and he wouldn't discourage me from what I was doing, but he would offer tips.

    The community was more mature, for the most part. I went into a dungeon and soulstoned myself. Someone sighed and explained to me why we don't do that. Everyone helped me understand my role and what I should be doing. That doesn't happen much now-a-days.

    I try and help if someone asks, but there are also those that don't listen.
    Mods seriously need to start cracking down hard on blatant racism like this. I will have you know that it isn't just Asians who are in the gold selling market. In fact many gold selling companies are headed up by people from the United States who base their operations in countries where Blizzard is unable to retaliate legally.

  17. #57
    Herald of the Titans UnifiedDivide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lios View Post
    But, if people don't get it, can't improve, get shunned, etc, why do they even play? I suck at the Sims and couldn't improve, so I don't play that, as it's no fun at all to play a game that you suck at. Yet he keeps playing and apparently expects someone to take hours to explain the basics to him. He should either stick to quests and easy stuff, quit the game or figure out how to play. A little help here and there is just fine, answering specific questions is too, but hours to explain basic stuff? Come on.
    God forbid someone just plays a game to have a little fun, right? Jesus...
    I don't think he expected anyone to spend hours teaching him either. The guy that wrote the first post offered to do so.

    OT: I feel sorry for the guy. Players always forget that new players can still be around and that they were once new to the game too.
    I started about 5/6 months into Vanilla and was rather lucky because I (eventually) found a group of people that were all just learning to play the game like I was. We ended up in the same guild and really just ran content together, talking about our abilities and what might work better for our tank and so on.

    New players today though, they get nothing from the in-game community anymore. The only replies I've seen people give are either "Google it" or "The internet is useful, I hear". How exactly does that help anyone? Expecting a new player of WoW to just start reading the, what, say 3/4, bigger, more well known websites and instantly pick everything up and understand it all is a joke. Personally, I would much rather just talk with someone for even just half an hour and explain to them what works and what doesn't.
    Last edited by UnifiedDivide; 2013-02-08 at 10:53 AM.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    Yeah no. Vanilla was never like that and I'm starting to think anyone making these claims never played back then and just simply parrot something they read from a blog without it having any basis in reality at all.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 05:46 AM ----------



    Mods seriously need to start cracking down hard on blatant racism like this. I will have you know that it isn't just Asians who are in the gold selling market. In fact many gold selling companies are headed up by people from the United States who base their operations in countries where Blizzard is unable to retaliate legally.
    Apart from that guy you quoted didn't really need to say that line... cause it didn't have anything to do with the OP's post really. I fail to see where there is racism here. At best you can see some form of prejudice against Asian people all being goldsellers. Maybe the guy you quoted tried and failed at being funny.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Is noxxic in the Korean language?
    And sometimes people just don't get the websites or are overwhelmed with the information that is found. So they need someone to tell them personally and in a pace they can handle.... - I am sure you know people like that at work or at school
    Don't pretend like it is only the "good" players who are jerks. I have seen just as many if not more players who are willfully bad at the game and reject any and all help and advice and direction and harass anyone daring to help them. They are just as much to blame as anyone else.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 05:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerox View Post
    Some people are so arrogant and full of themselfe because they are o so good, just disgusting.

    Most of those people sit behind theyr PC all day and think they are GOD > while they never see the sun or have RL friends.

    Anyway, i always help out newbs > giving advice and gold whole day long, linking them to guides that will help em out.

    Wish that more people would do that more often

    I have alot of people that have me in theyr friend list asking me for advice and stuff, even people i think of "omg u still dont know that after that many time aksing?"

    But im very patient, and keep learning them so they also can have fun, and not been cursed and sweared at when they do dungeons or a raid or ask for simple advice.

    If you ask in /2 these days for some info, wich seems obvious to those more intelligent or no-life people > they start NOOB GTFO etc etc.

    I mean, just help them out and stop being so arrogant.
    And again "noobs" can be just as if not more arrogant than anyone else. In all honesty part of what has made this community bad is white knights who defend "noobs" no matter how much of a jackass they are simply because they are "new" and to stick it to the "elitists".

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    Don't pretend like it is only the "good" players who are jerks. I have seen just as many if not more players who are willfully bad at the game and reject any and all help and advice and direction and harass anyone daring to help them. They are just as much to blame as anyone else.
    I am sorry, I never said anything like you just pointed out anywhere. I think (friendly advice) if you read the entire topic, you can see what and why I responding with that quote.

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