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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    I'm sorry that you have to actually understand the class to play it to any sort of level. I still do not see how you claim this to be a defect in the class.
    Don't be condescending. It hurts your credibility.

    If you truly believe that balance druids have no defects in their soloing ability, answer me this: why do threads like this one, where players complain about questing difficulties as balance, pop up from time to time, here, on the official forums, and even as questions to the devs on twitter?

    This is a trend that I've noticed, and felt myself in the game; which is why I'm bringing it up, in the hopes of sparking some constructive discussion (although that ship has probably already sailed). Who knows, maybe someone from Blizzard would get the feedback and make changes to solve the issues, to make the spec more attractive and enjoyable as a whole.

    You can't simply keep denying that the issues DO exist, although I understand that it can be hard for a veteran player of the spec to put himself in the shoes of someone who is new to it. Or maybe you CAN stay on the defensive, as if people were attacking your favorite spec, and deny that there is a problem. But then, like I said in a previous post, you're actually doing a great disservice to your own favorite spec.
    Yak. Yak never changes.

  2. #42
    I can see why you may think boomkin is hard or flawed in some places, but for questing?!? Questing as boomkin has been improved so much, but it really dose revolve on either mutlidot kitting or popping all cds (Incarn-NV then CA) and tearing a hole in the earth.

    As said, it takes a little practice and effort to play it, there is NOTHING wrong with needing to put a small amount of effort into learning the way the class works. but it reeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaly dose not need to be changed to match all the other classes way of fighting, that would be boring and ruin the whole class imo :P

  3. #43
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedMosquito View Post
    Don't be condescending. It hurts your credibility.

    If you truly believe that balance druids have no defects in their soloing ability, answer me this: why do threads like this one, where players complain about questing difficulties as balance, pop up from time to time, here, on the official forums, and even as questions to the devs on twitter?

    This is a trend that I've noticed, and felt myself in the game; which is why I'm bringing it up, in the hopes of sparking some constructive discussion (although that ship has probably already sailed). Who knows, maybe someone from Blizzard would get the feedback and make changes to solve the issues, to make the spec more attractive and enjoyable as a whole.

    You can't simply keep denying that the issues DO exist, although I understand that it can be hard for a veteran player of the spec to put himself in the shoes of someone who is new to it. Or maybe you CAN stay on the defensive, as if people were attacking your favorite spec, and deny that there is a problem. But then, like I said in a previous post, you're actually doing a great disservice to your own favorite spec.
    I'm not doing any dis-service to the spec. You're complaining that it actually takes some semblance of knowledge for a class to be able to quest quickly in the class. I don't see that as a defect what-so-ever, and the majority of players in this thread who have spent any sort of time playing a balance druid seem to agree with me. I'm pointing out that you really don't have any argument whatsoever. Nothing needs to be fixed, at least when it comes to questing.
    Sunfyre | @FoGSunfyre

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Dandruid View Post
    I can see why you may think boomkin is hard or flawed in some places, but for questing?!? Questing as boomkin has been improved so much, but it really dose revolve on either mutlidot kitting or popping all cds (Incarn-NV then CA) and tearing a hole in the earth.
    Haha, I definitely see what you mean, but my experience has been the exact opposite: I love the spec for instances and PvP; but for soloing, it frustrates me to no end. I'm seeing that players new to the spec have opinions similar to mine, while veterans think like you do.

    Which is why I came to the conclusion that the spec is hard to pick up, but very effective once you're experienced and know the ins and outs of kiting and multi-dotting. I see THAT as a flaw: it should be, IMO, still hard to master, but far easier to get into. This frustration while soloing has probably scared many players away from the spec (as it did for me).

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-10 at 09:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    You're complaining that it actually takes some semblance of knowledge for a class to be able to quest quickly in the class. I don't see that as a defect what-so-ever, and the majority of players in this thread who have spent any sort of time playing a balance druid seem to agree with me. I'm pointing out that you really don't have any argument whatsoever. Nothing needs to be fixed, at least when it comes to questing.
    The key phrase here is "who have spent any sort of time playing a balance druid." It's easy once you know how to. Figuring it out shouldn't have to be so much harder than it is for any other spec, though. THAT's what I'm "complaining" about (if that's the word you want to use).
    Yak. Yak never changes.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by RedMosquito View Post
    Haha, I definitely see what you mean, but my experience has been the exact opposite: I love the spec for instances and PvP; but for soloing, it frustrates me to no end. I'm seeing that players new to the spec have opinions similar to mine, while veterans think like you do.

    Which is why I came to the conclusion that the spec is hard to pick up, but very effective once you're experienced and know the ins and outs of kiting and multi-dotting. I see THAT as a flaw: it should be, IMO, still hard to master, but far easier to get into. This frustration while soloing has probably scared many players away from the spec (as it did for me).
    I've two buddies levelling atm, one of which I literally just spoke with about it, and she says she is finding boomkin really easy to level and quest with : /. When they started I just gave them the small tip to dot everything they see and SS its face off. The class is differently played than the other casters. This is really non-issue imo.

    If something takes a little longer to master than something else, it is not a problem. It's not hard or impossible, just takes a short bit more effort.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Dandruid View Post
    I've two buddies levelling atm, one of which I literally just spoke with about it, and she says she is finding boomkin really easy to level and quest with : /. When they started I just gave them the small tip to dot everything they see and SS its face off. The class is differently played than the other casters. This is really non-issue imo.

    If something takes a little longer to master than something else, it is not a problem. It's not hard or impossible, just takes a short bit more effort.
    Indeed it's not a problem if it takes a little more effort to master, I agree with you. But my argument is about the step that comes before mastering: getting started.

    Like you said, you gave your friend the tip to dot everything they saw and SS. If someone had given me that tip, maybe my experience with my moonkin wouldn't have been so frustrating.

    But no one gave me any tips on my shadow priest or my ele shaman, and I had a blast with those. Why are balance druids the only spec where you have to know what you're doing before you even start, in order to not have a frustrating experience? That's the thing that bothers me.

    I'm not saying that's the case for EVERYONE, but it is for many people, given by the threads and tweets and chats, here, in-game and elsewhere.
    Yak. Yak never changes.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by RedMosquito View Post
    Indeed it's not a problem if it takes a little more effort to master, I agree with you. But my argument is about the step that comes before mastering: getting started.

    Like you said, you gave your friend the tip to dot everything they saw and SS. If someone had given me that tip, maybe my experience with my moonkin wouldn't have been so frustrating.

    But no one gave me any tips on my shadow priest or my ele shaman, and I had a blast with those. Why are balance druids the only spec where you have to know what you're doing before you even start, in order to not have a frustrating experience? That's the thing that bothers me.

    I'm not saying that's the case for EVERYONE, but it is for many people, given by the threads and tweets and chats, here, in-game and elsewhere.

    Like with any class/spec - if your not sure or struggling, ask someone. Or check out a fan-site on it ect. Information on all classes and specs is easily obtained. As a class with dots and lots of kitting ability's it really stands it's self out to be that type of play style. Even more so when the hard casting single target is clear from the start it's not how it is done

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Dandruid View Post
    Like with any class/spec - if your not sure or struggling, ask someone. Or check out a fan-site on it ect. Information on all classes and specs is easily obtained. As a class with dots and lots of kitting ability's it really stands it's self out to be that type of play style. Even more so when the hard casting single target is clear from the start it's not how it is done
    I understand what you mean, but I think that's exactly what my point is. I agree that it's invaluable to ask someone or checkout a fan-site... when you're trying to maximize your performance, to master your spec. But you shouldn't have to check outside info just to be able to properly get started playing your spec, in my opinion.

    But I guess this is just me putting my designer shoes on and attempting to "fix" an issue that I found. Maybe I wouldn't even bother, if I hadn't seen other people finding the exact same issue, several times, and couldn't relate. Those who argue against the issue are, 99% of the time, veteran players of the spec, who are long past the phase where the issue actually occurs; which is why this might not seem like a problem to them. So I'll just rest my argument here.
    Yak. Yak never changes.

  9. #49
    well i guess i see what you're saying RedMosquito, but honestly, "hard to master" is one of the reasons I take a lot of pride in my moonkin. Granted, the rotation isn't as complex as some dps classes, but I like the fact that I feel like such a beast because I can do things like kite well. ive noticed a lot of vet moonkin players feel the same way - we're a spec that has seen few "good times" and lots of "bad times" so the people who have stuck with the class for so long can get really defensive. you see the same thing in the enhancement shaman community. i think we get especially defensive now because, honestly, we're the best we've ever been at the moment - as sad as that may or may not be.

    honestly, if you enjoy moonkin pvp as much as you claim im surprised you're having trouble questing. the skill set is pretty much the same - "dot all the things and run away starsurging"

    If you ask me, classes like priests "dot everything and VE tank dispersion if you get in trouble trolololol" is too easy. I'd prefer it all classes were as "difficult" as moondruid. To each his own I suppose.
    Last edited by crunk; 2013-02-11 at 12:28 AM.

  10. #50
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Wow Sunfyre, for a mod you're being pretty dickish. Personal problem? I don't have a personal problem. You seem to have an issue with anyone who doesn't agree with you to the point of insulting us.

    I can play the spec just fine (I leveled entirely as Balance), but I don't think it's a complex point that some of us find it more annoying to quest as Boomkin that as other classes or other Druid specs. Some of us don't WANT to have to use the entire toolkit to do something as simply as kill a few mobs for dailies.

    Disagree, fine, but take the insults, fold them until they're all corners and then put them... well, use your imagination.

    PS: I'd report you if you weren't a mod because you're damn close to flaming. I'm done here.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-02-11 at 12:55 AM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by crunk View Post
    honestly, if you enjoy moonkin pvp as much as you claim im surprised you're having trouble questing. the skill set is pretty much the same - "dot all the things and run away starsurging"
    I just said that I enjoyed it, doesn't mean I'm good at it. =P
    But still, while I would dot everything, I would also sit down and turret (from a safe distance, of course). It's easy when no one is pounding on you. Soloing, you can't really do that. At low level PvP, you can (even though it might not be a good idea once you know better).
    Yak. Yak never changes.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by RedMosquito View Post
    I just said that I enjoyed it, doesn't mean I'm good at it. =P
    But still, while I would dot everything, I would also sit down and turret (from a safe distance, of course). It's easy when no one is pounding on you. Soloing, you can't really do that. At low level PvP, you can (even though it might not be a good idea once you know better).
    This is why you have a tone of CC abilities,
    which, along with multidotting, are bread and butter of the spec.
    Boomkin is the best SPREAD multi target spec in the game, and everyone who creates boomkin char should realize this.

    Someone in this thread earlier mentioned 20 k single target dps for a I lvl 450 fresh lvl 90 boomkin - as a common amount of DPS.
    I d like to point out that 20 k DPS was average single target for lvl 85 boomkin at the early stage in Dragon Soul (Morchok for example).
    So yeah, 20 k dps at lvl 90 is just wrong.

    We can agree that boomkin is not the easiest spec to start playing, but IMO that applies more to players who bought their account with leveled up chars.
    I cant believe that if you properly play from lvl 1 to lvl 90, you still cant play the spec well enough to do dailies at lvl 90.

    I 2nd and 3rd Sunfyre's point of view on the spec and players that find it too hard to bother.

    I also disagree with the implied statement that with all other classes as fresh lvl 90 in I lvl 450 gear, you can just storm through dailies,
    pulling any amount of mobs, w/o CDs, nuking them all down in 10 secs (which is obviously a reasonable time to do a daily quest ).

    I stated this a lot in other threads, but let me repeat it again:
    There is nothing wrong with balance spec, it does not need tweaking, especially for questing purpose.
    Seriously, if you cant use 5-7 abilities at any given time it means you should "rewire" your keybinds, (or buy a more sophisticated mouse :P).

  13. #53
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Wow I respected sunfyres opinion before, but this thread he's come out as a right condescending white knight. Love how a veteran moonkin with years of theory crafting and experience feels the need to talk down to people who struggle to get to grips with a class or feel that its not in the right place levelling/questing wise, its not the class its you mentality is just crazy considering that quite a lot of people have reported exactly the same thing. Red mosquito has shown an excellent level of composure in the face of constant belittle criticism, well done chap and I can quite happily say changing from boomkin means Ill never have to read another sunfyre piece again.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-11 at 12:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    I don't see that as a defect what-so-ever, and the majority of players in this thread who have spent any sort of time playing a balance druid seem to agree with me.
    Well done, so no defect because all the players with experience agree with you, this kind of mentality baffles me, were levelling for pete sake, I rerolled to boomkin to help my guild out in raids, the questing was so slow and so full of constant use of utilities that it put me right off the spec, is that what should happen with any class when levelling, I dontreally know how this levelling experience is going to help me when I do start raiding, its nothing like im going to experience in T14 so how is it training for playing at level 90. Ugh I really dont know why i bother youre being so pig headed that I might as well bang my head against a door. Good job on being so egotistical as to tell people there argument is completely invalid because they arent experts, horrid attitude.
    Last edited by draykorinee; 2013-02-11 at 12:43 PM.

  14. #54
    Or maybe, just maybe, some forum users still dont get the point, and the point was - there is nothing wrong with boomkin as a spec.

    Although, it s apparently pointless to keep saying that.
    These players who come here and post something like "yes, it s hard to quest as boomkin", or "it s impossible to do dailies as boomkin, it takes forever"
    dont want to consider that this is due to characteristic and abilities of this spec, if you re doing it wrong it will be hard, and it will take forever.

    Instead of listening to advice that Sunfyre (and others) give (i.e. use cc, pull more and multidot, kite, use CDs),
    people just keep saying: "it s bad", "change that", "I am not gonna use all my abilities".
    Why not acknowledge that boomkin as a spec requires different (than say - a mage) approach, and playstyle.

    Why do you want to change the spec, instead of learning how to play it properly????
    WHY?


    Dont shout for changing a spec, either listen to players who play that successfully, or reroll some other spec/class.

    It s tiresome to listen to people who played boomkin for couple days, did not like it,
    and then cry for changing something that some more experienced players LOVE the way it is.

    There is nothing wrong with the spec, be patient, play more, listen to good advice, maybe you will love it too.

    If not, please just forget about balance, and go feral or resto or something.

  15. #55
    The first post was saying he is struggling with the dailys and that he is finding it takes too much time for him to kill normal mobs, players like myself and Sunfyre have tried explaining that it's not the class having the issue, it is how the player is using it. If he wants more advice on playing it, players like myself are happy to help. Again there is a lot of information available.
    If I have come across as rude to you guys it is because instead of stepping up and taking the changeling, people are just complaining and and asking it to be made easier, when then it's just that it's unique with a different play style that needs getting used to. There is nothing wrong with that at all, and to players like myself it is very frustrating to see people wanting nerfs or buffs because they don't want to put the effort in.

  16. #56
    I am Murloc! Terahertz's Avatar
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    Get NS, Typhoon, Incarnation, Ursol's Vortex and Nature's Vigil for dailies. My ilvl is only 473, but I'm having no problem whatsoever with my dailies. Just be sure to kite a lot, multi-dot a lot and use your CDs when needed (note: Nature's Vigil is a GREAT defensive AND offensive CD).

    Honestly, when I pop all of my CDs, I multi-dot everything in sight and shoot off my starsurge procs as if they're ice lances.

  17. #57
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandruid View Post
    The first post was saying he is struggling with the dailys and that he is finding it takes too much time for him to kill normal mobs, players like myself and Sunfyre have tried explaining that it's not the class having the issue, it is how the player is using it. If he wants more advice on playing it, players like myself are happy to help. Again there is a lot of information available.
    If I have come across as rude to you guys it is because instead of stepping up and taking the changeling, people are just complaining and and asking it to be made easier, when then it's just that it's unique with a different play style that needs getting used to. There is nothing wrong with that at all, and to players like myself it is very frustrating to see people wanting nerfs or buffs because they don't want to put the effort in.
    I dont want advice, I know how to level and do dailies as a boom after the hours i put in during mop it doesnt however change the fact that the effort I put in is substantially more than any other spec, if people like yourself are happy playing that way thats fine but to constantly see sunfyre say youre wrong, Im right there is no valid argument etc its infuriating. We have just as much right to say we dont find the spec performing how we like as anyone, moderator or not.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-11 at 04:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Terahertz View Post
    Get NS, Typhoon, Incarnation, Ursol's Vortex and Nature's Vigil for dailies. My ilvl is only 473, but I'm having no problem whatsoever with my dailies. Just be sure to kite a lot, multi-dot a lot and use your CDs when needed (note: Nature's Vigil is a GREAT defensive AND offensive CD).

    Honestly, when I pop all of my CDs, I multi-dot everything in sight and shoot off my starsurge procs as if they're ice lances.
    Were not really talking 473 were talking 460ish

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    I dont want advice, I know how to level and do dailies as a boom after the hours i put in during mop it doesnt however change the fact that the effort I put in is substantially more than any other spec, if people like yourself are happy playing that way thats fine but to constantly see sunfyre say youre wrong, Im right there is no valid argument etc its infuriating. We have just as much right to say we dont find the spec performing how we like as anyone, moderator or not.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-11 at 04:05 PM ----------



    Were not really talking 473 were talking 460ish
    You can't just request something to be easier because you don't want to put in the effort. seriously
    You say you know how to do dailys and level ect ect, then there really is no problem. If you do not enjoy the class, maybe pick a different one, but to just make it easier because you have to put in a little effort is just plain pointless...

    Also despite the OP gear being low, reforging out of critt will just make it harder, being that it's the best secondary stat for us currently. The critt is being reforged into spirit, which I'd guess was done for regen when healing, but it's a big dps loss to be that far over the cap.
    Last edited by Dandruid; 2013-02-11 at 04:42 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by mikoslav View Post
    Boomkin is the best SPREAD multi target spec in the game, and everyone who creates boomkin char should realize this.
    What I question is: HOW should they realize that, exactly? Especially when they're a) new to the game, or b) used to playing other specs, that don't work that way?
    Of course they will try to emulate the way they've been playing other specs, fail, and feel frustrated. But unless they talk to veteran moonkins or come to forums like this, they will never learn the proper way to solo as a moonkin, because they'll probably quit it before that happens. Honestly, I see that as a huge problem that the spec has.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikoslav View Post
    Why not acknowledge that boomkin as a spec requires different (than say - a mage) approach, and playstyle.

    Why do you want to change the spec, instead of learning how to play it properly????
    WHY?


    Dont shout for changing a spec, either listen to players who play that successfully, or reroll some other spec/class.

    It s tiresome to listen to people who played boomkin for couple days, did not like it,
    and then cry for changing something that some more experienced players LOVE the way it is.

    There is nothing wrong with the spec, be patient, play more, listen to good advice, maybe you will love it too.
    I completely understand where you're coming from, and I even agree that, maybe, nothing is wrong with how the spec is supposed to play when properly used. But it is undeniable that there is something wrong somewhere, or people wouldn't have been finding it difficult, so often.

    Maybe the problem is not with how the moonkin operates, but a lack of clues that would lead an inexperienced player to grasping it properly. Maybe it could be fixed by merely changing the order with which the moonkin gets certain spells: imagine if a low level moonkin got Moonfire, Sunfire and Starsurge early on, but didn't even get Wrath or Starfire until later levels. He would be compelled to understand that he should keep using his dots and staying mobile, since that's the only thing he would be able to do.

    But then, he would go into an instance and think that's what he has to do as well, ignoring his nukes. So, you can see that it's definitely not a trivial issue, when you consider that not everyone is a veteran, with years of experience. And honestly, the players who actually go out of their way to go online and ask for help are a tiny fraction of the playerbase. There are countless WoW players out there who have no idea that forums like this one even exist. I bet you that a bunch of them have tried Balance before, felt frustrated, and abandoned the spec.

    That's why we suggest changes. We're not trying to say that the spec is broken and needs to be redesigned, and we're not clamoring for buffs either; we've merely identified a problem, because we felt it ourselves or saw it related by others, often, and proposed changes that would alleviate the issue, and make the Balance spec more attractive and less frustrating. Veterans insist on saying that new players "don't want to put effort into things," and I'm trying my hardest to explain that that is not the issue at hand.

    As a compromise to what I'm saying, I am going to respec my druid into Balance today, and give the spec another shot. I'll do dailies without ever planting and nuking (the way I've been used to doing with other specs, for years). If I find that my moonkin is less frustrating and more effective that way, I will be able to safely say that the problem is, like I imagine, a lack of clues that lead someone new to the spec to the way it's supposed to be properly played when solo; which is different than the way its basic rotation works.
    Last edited by wonderlust; 2013-02-11 at 05:18 PM.
    Yak. Yak never changes.

  20. #60
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedMosquito View Post
    Snip
    This is true, prior to mop release I switched to raid with my boom, i read all the guides etc etc I was doing okay, had my rotation sorted picked up some nice dps, I then start leveling and im like Oo because I suddenly need to change my playstyle completely, once I hit 90 I then enter a dungeon and again Oo im now back to a rotation after hours of questing. Another well written post red, no resorting to condescending or egotistical stances to make a va;id point based on yours and others experiences and opinion.

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