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  1. #41
    Legendary! Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Yea, a lot. So, did you play WCIII? Because the heroes only had a couple abilities. They all used mana, and had spells. So a Demon Hunter walks up to his enemy and punches them. A rogue would stealth, and a warrior would charge. A Demon Hunter, like everyone else, walks on forward. So if you look at the list of classes, the rogue is the closest- he attacks in melee ceaselessly, and he has evasion. He even has a weapon in each hand! A weapon we all expected to be in WoW, and it's not (well, it did appear briefly as a set of legendaries, but that barely counts- you would expect warglaive to be a weapon type in this universe). What class is closer than the rogue? Note the demon hunter isn't well armored, unlike a warrior, and also note that the warrior pretty much shares NOTHING except being a melee.

    It's obviously not the paladin- he's the paladin. It's not the hunter, or the mage, and clearly not the priest. Certainly nothing in common with the druid or shaman, nature casters both, a kit that conflicts with the demon hunter's kit. The warlock had NOTHING in common until they gave him the ultimate- but he still doesn't play like a demon hunter, he's clearly a caster.

    So if you are looking to play a Demon Hunter, your favorite WCIII hero, you are probably picking rogue. It's really the closest. You might choose demo lock instead, but outside of meta it's nothing alike- if anything you are closer to the scourge heroes. Since BC, you've even had the RP pieces, and plenty of rogues run around with the blindfold transmog as night elf males- it's absolutely clear what they think they are, and I know they've got glaives in their bags waiting for the day when you can xmog legendaries.

    Yup. Rogue is the closest. You can say it isn't very close, but no one is saying ANYTHING is close enough for DH fans. Your choice is rogue or go home, pretty much.
    You must be kidding. Your only argument is that the DH is a melee and wields two weapons. DK wields two weapons, warrior wields two weapons, shaman wields two weapons. All fine, they're all classes that are dual-wield melees. So what? That's because we only have a couple of categories regarding fighting style. If you're a DPS you're either melee or ranged. If you're ranged you're either a caster or you use bows, guns like the hunter. Every class fits into one of these categories. However it's wrong to say that 2 classes in the same category are very similar to each other just because of that.

    If the Rogue is the closest you can find to the DH, then I'm confident in saying the DH offers something we don't have in the game right now.
    Last edited by Nindoriel; 2013-02-09 at 09:02 AM.
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  2. #42
    I don't like the idea. Removing rogues from the game would be wrong. However, giving rogues the option to turn to demon hunters at a certain level, through a series of quests or something similar would be interesting to me. That way rogues don't get replaced, and the new class, demon hunters, gets introduced in an exciting way. The problem would then be what to do with them since part of their abilities was given to other classes, but I don;t think it is tool hard to make some new ones, and even give them back some of what other classes were given.

  3. #43
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    First, you mean without any magic, dark or otherwise.
    Cloak of Shadows [No! it's just a special wind breaker that you can only put on every two minutes.]
    Shadowstep [Rogues must be able to teleport because of physical prowess.]
    Stealth [Everyone is always looking up at the sky, that's why they can't see us crouched.]
    Shadow Blades [The shadow damage is imaginary.]
    Shadow Dance [The shadow fire that envelops the user while they use invisibility centered attacks must also be imaginary.]
    Recuperate [Nanites repairing damage, obviosly not magic.]
    Vanish [Vanishing from sight to complete invisibility is also doable without magical aid.]
    Shadow Walk [Blizzard just likes using the word shadow, it has nothing to do with the actual ability.]
    Shroud of Concealment [Conceals other people invisible by meticulously made shrouds of leaves from the night before.]
    Cheat Death [Who's this "Death" character anyway?]
    Killing Spree [The warping must be server lag.]


    Can also make the case for Vendetta, and Smoke Bomb being used through magic.
    Last edited by Speaknoevil; 2013-02-09 at 10:57 AM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    Cloak of Shadows [No! it's just a special wind breaker that you can only put on every two minutes.]
    Shadowstep [Rogues must be able to teleport because of physical prowess.]
    Stealth [Everyone is always looking up at the sky, that's why they can't see us crouched.]
    Shadow Blades [The shadow damage is imaginary.]
    Shadow Dance [The shadow fire that envelops the user while they use invisibility centered attacks must also be imaginary.]
    Recuperate [Nanites repairing damage, obviosly not magic.]
    Vanish [Vanishing from sight to complete invisibility is also doable without magical aid.]
    Shadow Walk [Blizzard just likes using the word shadow, it has nothing to do with the actual ability.]
    Shroud of Concealment [Conceals other people invisible by meticulously made shrouds of leaves from the night before.]
    Cheat Death [Who's this "Death" character anyway?]
    Killing Spree [The warping must be server lag.]


    Can also make the case for Vendetta, and Smoke Bomb being used through magic.
    You seem to be under the impression that everything needs to be taken at face value.

    A large number of your sighted examples aren't magic, they're dressed up effects of a regular thief.
    Warcraft is a cinematic universe.
    That's the same reason why warriors are able to take blows from huge creatures with no magical aid.
    And the same reason why a peasant farmer npc can be hit by a bolt of fire, or a throwing dagger, or a great-sword, and not instantly die.

    Rogues are not able to use magic, they're able to use the fact that the universe of warcraft is cinematic to their advantage.
    The impossible things they do are possible in warcraft because they simply are. I'll explain a bit below.

    Stealth is a rogue slipping out of sight by moving into the 'shadows'

    Cloak of shadows, shadowstep, shadow dance, and shadow blades follow this idea, it isn't that the rogue can use shadow-magic like priests can. It's that rogues can slip into the shadows (not shadow-magic, but actual physical shadows) and use it to their advantage; slipping out of effects, moving rapidly, getting out of line of sight, and getting in quick strikes under people's guards into weakpoints where they can't defend against the damage.

    These are all based on the concept of "slipping into the shadows"(something that's symbolic in our world) being a literal possibility in the warcraft world.

    Recuperate is the same. The lighting effect is just that, a spell effect. Rogues aren't some sort of super powerful shaman that can redirect lighting currents to heal their flesh and close wounds. The rogue is literally just "recuperating" from battle, at an impossible rate made possible by the nature of the universe.

    Vanish is just a rogue throwing down a smokebomb, once again, sure, this doesn't work in real life, but neither does carrying six two hand axes in a small pouch. Smokebombs in fiction work more effectively than they do in real life, see any ninja movie ever. The ninjas aren't magic, it's just not real life.

    Shadow walk is just a more careful stealthing.

    Shroud is the closest thing rogues have to being able to do magic. In this case, you could make the argument that the rogue is manipulating the shadows slightly to extend his own ability to slip into them to others. But really, it's just a dressed up version of the rogue's experience allowing un-experienced non-rogues to temporarily move about stealthily.

    Cheat Death is a very symbolic ability, it more represents the rogue dodging around and briefly keeping themselves alive when anyone else would have died. Frankly using this is a stupid example anyway, since the ability is basically worthless and you get killed through it a large amount of the time.

    Killing spree is literally meant to be the rogue darting around from target to target. The rogue is not using blink or a teleportation spell, they are simply moving extremely quickly, but obviously, the move would be pretty bad (and very clunky) if it actually moved at say, charge or sprint speed between targets, so it's made instant instead.
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  5. #45
    why do you even discuss about DH in a rogue forum where there is no indication or proof that rogues turn into DH ?
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  6. #46
    Herald of the Titans RicardoZ's Avatar
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    Leave rogues alone. I've been maining a Rogue since Wrath and they're fine.

  7. #47
    i dont even understand the reason for this thread. there were no announcements, there is no link between rogues and demon hunters, rogues will never use magic as it isn't part of the class design, all demon hunter abilities have been given to several classes yet. i can't imagine a blue post like:

    Warlock:
    - Metamorphosis as well as Immolation Aura will be taken away and given to Rogues.

    Priest:
    - We took away mana burn, because we didn't like that spell but now give it to Rogues

    Rogue:
    - Your class has been deleted, you are now demon hunters.

    ...

  8. #48
    The Patient Linneth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogaeu View Post
    Rogue:
    - Your class has been deleted, you are now demon hunters.

    ...
    Well, seeing how Beta works for Rogues I would say that that would be the next logical step .

  9. #49
    Rogues do have a lot of mysticism about them, it even stated as much before the class/race selection revamp. I haven't checked if it still does or not, but I can only imagine so. I say that rogues cannot perform magical actions, that all of their abilities are physical prowess, is ludicrous. We manipulate shadows, not use use them.

    That being said, we're not shadow priests. We're not warlocks. At this point, I'd say Demonology has more of a chance to become the Demon Hunter than the Rogue.

    Also, in regards to Combat spec... I love that spec. If given the choice, I'll almost always play it. However, it can be boring as hell sometimes.
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  10. #50
    O yes the future improvements for rogues are nothing much from what pl on ptr say, and its really to bad that for sub spec, in pve we dont have a special spell that allows you to bk the target when you cant go behind it, and that spell to have just the right cd so u can use after ss, but ofc that will never happen from the way things go for the rogue class.

  11. #51
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soratrox View Post
    -snip-
    I obviously disagree, and apparently so does Blizzard considering the description when picking the rogue class in Classic described their mysticism.

  12. #52
    Elemental Lord Snowraven's Avatar
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    You know, this is an idea to make a spec of rogues demon hunters.

    In the end, we do complain the specs are too much alike now, so making one radically different would be indeed something. And what better way to do this then to make one be demon hunters?
    Considering how rogues work and which specs are most alike now (assassination and combat) and how death knights fight more face to face, kind of like combat does, this would probably be the best idea.
    Or, introduce a 4th spec as demon hunters for rogues. This would be even better as it could be done by doing a class questline after which you get your new tree.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnorei View Post
    In the end, we do complain the specs are too much alike now, so making one radically different would be indeed something. And what better way to do this then to make one be demon hunters?
    Considering how rogues work and which specs are most alike now (assassination and combat) and how death knights fight more face to face, kind of like combat does, this would probably be the best idea.
    As Rogeau pointed out, we'd basically need to steal other classes' abilities or removed abilities to enhance our toolkit enough to justify a DH spec. Beyond that, adding a spec, as mentioned earlier, isn't all that likely to allow the first three room to "branch out".

    On your "most similar specs" list, I urge you to consider: replace RvS with hemo, SS with backstab. What's left? ShD vs. AR. Managing find weakness and having to be behind the target are the only rotational differences between combat and subtlety. In practice, sub usually has more to watch (FW) and greater losses/emphasis on rupture (SV) by FAR, but assassination at least changed the name of one finisher and doesn't use the other! :P

    Honestly all three specs need tweaking, and I don't think anything DH related is the answer.

  14. #54
    Rogues are not able to use magic, they're able to use the fact that the universe of warcraft is cinematic to their advantage.
    Rogues use ninja magic. The descriptions of some of these abilities make it clear that something explicitly magical is going on.

    "Draw upon the surrounding shadows to empower your weapons"
    That's not "cinematic" that is magic.

    Warriors aren't awesome because they are "cinematic", they are awesome because they have might approaching that of demi-gods. What you see a warrior do is like what you would see Hercules do. Not quite as dramatic, but close.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    You must be kidding. Your only argument is that the DH is a melee and wields two weapons.
    My argument was longer than that. DHs aren't just melee- they are the lightest armor melee in WCIII. They wear leather, like the rest of the night elf males.

    DK wields two weapons
    But a DK is obviously not a DH. The DK is obviously the DK. The DK clearly uses DK abilities, and wears plate. Also, most DKs don't dual wield. No one would ever choose a DK as their DH analog- it's painfully obvious that it doesn't apply.

    warrior wields two weapons
    A warrior is the second closest. Warrior kit is a bit undefined, as he's the 'fighter' archetype. However, the warrior isn't a very close fit. He wears plate, and his only spec that can dual wield is obviously modeled from a barbarian. You could use the warrior as your DH stand in, but you are pressing kit pretty hard.

    shaman wields two weapons.
    While he manages to not wear plate, his explicit nature spells wouldn't be ignored in WCIII- also, a shaman is clearly over in Witch Doctor and Far Seer land, with the wolf summoning, the chain lightning, and the totems. You also can't even be a night elf shaman- trivially, no one who wants to be a Demon Hunter would even consider rolling a shaman. Also, shamans had dual wield added so they could use rogue weapons. No one is best fitting a shaman.


    So what?
    None of them have evasion or leather, and all of them have additional flavor that excludes the DH. Rogue remains your best bet, your best fit. You could try reading my words instead of cherry picking some point, misinterpreting it, and trying to reductio ad absurdem it uselessly missing my meaning.

    Fact: There are several rogues who wanted to be Demon Hunters, and rolled the class because "it was the demon hunter".
    No one rolled their death knight or shaman with this intention. I bet some warriors were on board, but mostly it's rogues I see all dolled up like demon hunters, even in the days before transmog.

    That's because we only have a couple of categories regarding fighting style. If you're a DPS you're either melee or ranged. If you're ranged you're either a caster or you use bows, guns like the hunter. Every class fits into one of these categories. However it's wrong to say that 2 classes in the same category are very similar to each other just because of that.
    Nonsense. WCIII had no such limitations. WoW does, because of the damage model it uses. Hunters originally had two ranged specs and a melee spec- that didn't get ironed out until late vanilla. What we have to go on from WCIII isn't much- try to remember that each hero had FOUR abilities, usually one of them passive, and one of them an ultimate you didn't get to play with every game. Other distinctions included whether the hero attacks with a ranged ability or a melee one. That's not a lot to go on.

    If the Rogue is the closest you can find to the DH, then I'm confident in saying the DH offers something we don't have in the game right now.
    100% agree.

  15. #55
    If the design space is already filled by three classes besides rogues, how does that make it a good idea to move rogues over there? In effect, you're taking away a different type of class and putting it in the space already filled up. Blizzard also wouldn't force the change on the class because of the subs they'd lose from people who liked their rogues. I don't think they'd offer it as an option to rogues because people would say "why do they get a free class change to the new one?"

    I don't personally believe the interest is as high from the rogue class as some others here do.

    And the rogue is not the closest to the DH. I'm confident in saying DKs, warlocks and hunters fill the niche already.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Honestly all three specs need tweaking, and I don't think anything DH related is the answer.
    The only actual suggestion that makes sense is if next expac they decide to add specs to the list, then you could throw a DH spec at rogues that way. I actually expect DH to be a mail wearing class in a future expansion.

    The existing specs need help, but you can see that they don't understand the kit for them. After throwing away riposte and parry and surprise attacks and unfair advantage and throwing spec and the studded leather talent, they wonder why combat doesn't seem to have a kit. GC made a blog post like a year ago where he's like "gosh, I don't know why pures even have three specs". Give assassination 300 energy, a low damaging move that doesn't cost energy (maybe even makes it), and a motive to pool, and then you'll see a difference in playstyles. Make it so a red insight rogue moves 30% faster, takes 30% less damage, and can't be snared or rooted, and then you'll have a difference in specs. I think moonkin got more attention in Cata than all three rogue specs combined. Hey, are you 2 strikes into green insight, or 3? Did you count? Do you have bandit's guile helper? Because the moonkin's resource actually has a UI element, not a retarded buff that isn't labelled and is reused from a currency.

    Etc.


    They could give us these things. Maybe they will. I still like my rogue, but I get upset when the devs are like "hey, so, we JUST finished removing all the things that differentiated rogue specs, and now we're homogenizing the movement talents too- can you guys remind us why we even have three specs?"

    Obviously if they had enhanced the kit instead of DELETING it, they wouldn't need to ask.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 08:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MordorFires View Post
    If the design space is already filled by three classes besides rogues, how does that make it a good idea to move rogues over there? In effect, you're taking away a different type of class and putting it in the space already filled up. Blizzard also wouldn't force the change on the class because of the subs they'd lose from people who liked their rogues. I don't think they'd offer it as an option to rogues because people would say "why do they get a free class change to the new one?"

    I don't personally believe the interest is as high from the rogue class as some others here do.

    And the rogue is not the closest to the DH. I'm confident in saying DKs, warlocks and hunters fill the niche already.
    You are wrong. Just damned wrong. No one EVER rolled a DEATH KNIGHT for their demon hunter. Hunters also make no sense at all- literally NOTHING a hunter has in common with a demon hunter. Warlocks post cata might maybe, but only because of meta, which wasn't a huge part of the DH playstyle anyway. It was a big part of the build-up though, so I'm sure some DH fans are at lock right now.
    Last edited by Verain; 2013-02-09 at 08:32 PM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Rogues use ninja magic.
    And since ninja don't use magic, rogues don't either. Got it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    You are wrong. Just damned wrong. No one EVER rolled a DEATH KNIGHT for their demon hunter. Hunters also make no sense at all- literally NOTHING a hunter has in common with a demon hunter. Warlocks post cata might maybe, but only because of meta, which wasn't a huge part of the DH playstyle anyway. It was a big part of the build-up though, so I'm sure some DH fans are at lock right now.
    What was the DH playstyle then? Until they nerfed it, I would say it was the manaburn. You picked DH so that you could mana burn and deny your enemies hero's the ability to use their moves. Post nerf it was still incredibly good. Was the the immo aura so you could smash the lower level creeps to get a head start over the heroes with slower starts? If it was the evasion, brewmasters had a better version i'd say, so that shouldn't be it.

    All of that has been taken (meta as well). Those 3 moves (the active ones) were all there were to the DH playstyle. There were plenty of agi dps heroes if thats what you wanted. Without taking stuff from locks, there are no iconic DH moves left to put a DH into the game with. And regardless of how you feel about hiding in the shadows being some kind of mystic shadow manipulation magic, DH use night elf mana based magic and rogues certainly do not.

  18. #58
    Herald of the Titans Razorice's Avatar
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    I say, the less Rogues I see in my arena's/BG's the better!

  19. #59
    Are you all forgetting that Illidan(the first demon hunter) was originally a mage so he had an expertise in magic. Rogues currently have no "real" magic. Do not see this happening

  20. #60
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BcShane13 View Post
    Are you all forgetting that Illidan(the first demon hunter) was originally a mage so he had an expertise in magic. Rogues currently have no "real" magic. Do not see this happening
    Illidan was a [Mage-Rogue] then a [Demon Hunter].

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