When did "give us another rep grinding method" = "we want tabards back"?

[darkpower]

Please tell me, because I'm at a loss at this point trying to tell people like those that I've seen discussing the recent sub droppage that understanding of the actual complaint with dailies actually is, and how to make it clear to people like that that we don't really want tabards back.

Thing is, and I think it's been explained so many times now that you can't get past reading a thread about the dailies this xpac without seeing:

1. Person mentioning that they feel pigeon holed into dailies to grind rep because...that's the only thing Blizz gave us to grind rep.

Followed by.

2. (Some posts down when replying to person 1) Doing various name calling, calling someone lazy and whiny, and mentioning that person 1 (and those like them) want the one-shotting tabards that were in Cata back.

No where do we ever see anyone that is able to understand the actual complaint here. At no time have I seen anyone distinguish that it has nothing to do with the speed in which we are getting the rep. That's all well and good. People understand and accept the notion of what Blizz is trying to do this time.

What they are having a hard time accepting is that, in order for Blizz to achieve that goal of having rep need to take a week or so to get to Exalted (or a month if you're talking about the GL), they had to make dailies the only option, and only in 5.2 did they get the hint that slowing down doesn't mean we want to go to a very small area for the millionth time and prey that we can actually get a mob to kill out of those that get claimed within seconds of spawning while hoping that we don't aggro several more if we take two steps backwards. However, saying THAT doesn't mean we want to be handed things, either.

See that? We have to separate one from the other. People not wanting cheap deaths doesn't suddenly mean they want to have it be too easy. It's called genuine challenge. Something that tests skill but doesn't try patience. I have no problem actually finishing dailies from a skill mindset. I've proven through Revered with GL (didn't care to get past Revered because that was my ticket to get to Shado-Pan and AC to get the Enchanting patterns) that I've been able to do them without much issue there.

Thing is, though, I can only tolerate how they handled the Golden Lotus dailies for so long before I want to slit my wrists. Those dailies send you to the most cramped area with the most competition every time you go there, and the amount of dailies you have to do PER DAY is just ridiculous (what is it? 15-20 per day you have the pleasure of doing). I think I mentioned it here before about how badly that was implemented because that seemed to be Blizz's favorite faction. I have yet to find one quest that makes me care at all about what eventually happens in their story. Not one! Maybe I'm just not understanding the story, but I have a hard time caring, and for someone who's somewhat of a story driven gamer, if I care enough for the story, I'll go through the matter of seeing what eventually happens. Nothing doing here! I care enough to get the Enchanting and Tailoring stuff, but above that?

But I don't mind grinding things out. If it takes a few days for me to get what I desire, then so be it. I don't mind doing that, and neither does anyone else as long as it's a reasonable grind, a story that keeps your interests, rewards that are worth it, and challenges that test your might while being fair.

And some people who don't mind the grind DO mind that the dailies are the only option right now TO do that slow grind for a faction. I think that's the point that fails to be gotten here. I know it's probably just trolls being trolls, but Blizz DOES see those, too, and if we can't tell all the time who are just being trolls or selfish elitists, then Blizz might have a hard time, too, telling who is legit and who isn't.

But yeah, long story short, where did it become this understood fact that having an issue with dailies means we want the tabards back? I personally fail to get the connection when it seems like those that have an issue about dailies this time also had an issue with tabards making things too easy. I believe Blizz just went from one extreme to the other, and they're trying to find a compromise (I like what they are planning with 5.2). Hard to find a compromise when we can't even get past this point.

[Deleted]

I've allways liked grinding reputation before. There were just a small amount of daily quest for that faction (let's say 4), but you could also gain reputation by collecting emblems (or something similar). The daily quests took about 30min to complete mostly, and if you wanted to grind the emblems, allmost all the mobs at the location, or zone dropped them (let's say with 10% drop rate), in this way you could do it the hardcore way, and keep grinding those emblems, or you could just spend a little time doing the dalies every day, and reach you goal that way.(ofcourse it takes more time in days, but in time played, it might be even less than farming the emblems).

They should just rethink the way how it goes now. No-one with not that much time want to spend all their precious time on just dalies. So having just a small amount of dalies for a faction, should do the trick i think

[Dreyo]

"Give me ways to grind rep, only I don't like any of the ways of grinding rep." - Players

Impossible position they've been put in.

[darkpower]

"Give me ways to grind rep, only I don't like any of the ways of grinding rep." - Players

Impossible position they've been put in.

Only...they provided only one way to get rep (two if you count things like the GL coffers which I've only gotten a key for once). If you didn't like dailies, then good luck trying to convince people on the forums that you'd rather grind rep in another fashion without them thinking you wanted tabards back.

Like with every other change Blizz has done anymore, the debate over it turns into an endless stream of posts with an ax to grind against hardcore/casuals without any real thoughts about things getting through. I can't tell you how many sensible solutions get buried by that crap.

[PrairieChicken]

I want tabards back as well as rep awards that could be bought with gold

[Cernunnos]

-I don't mind doing dailies. It's just a little disheartening to see 110 rep and 137 rep, when dailies used to give 250 rep.
-I would have preferred if through the course of questing, you could get further through the reputation that you do now, before the commedations were added. Honored with the main reps would have been nice, instead of 500-1200 short of honored or whatever you are with shado pan. And only getting to neutral with GL and AC before having to do dailies kinda sucks. If you got more rep with the factions from non daily quests, that would lessen the number of daily quests you do have to do.
-Wouldn't have minded a turnin for either Golden Lotus or Shado Pan (like the one for klaxxi), both these factions have us kill throngs of mogu/mantid, why couldn't we turn in something from those that we killed?
-Wouldn't have minded a 3-5 man quest mob who dropped an item you could turn in for what was close to or the equivalent of a days worth of dailies, this can be done every day, either with, or in place of dailies. Some will do both obviously, but as some dont like dailies they will just do this one quest per day.


The big issue with the reps is prior to 5.2, there was no way after you reached a certain point (either mid neutral or mid friendly) to get rep other than dailies.

[SamR]

But yeah, long story short, where did it become this understood fact that having an issue with dailies means we want the tabards back? I personally fail to get the connection when it seems like those that have an issue about dailies this time also had an issue with tabards making things too easy. I believe Blizz just went from one extreme to the other, and they're trying to find a compromise (I like what they are planning with 5.2). Hard to find a compromise when we can't even get past this point.

Oh I dunno. Maybe it was all those threads with people complaining about wanting tabards back?

[Granyala]

So having just a small amount of dalies for a faction, should do the trick i think

Which is why there were .. 5? Quests for Shieldwall per day.
Blizzard openly admitted that they got the message about Lotus and Klaxxi. It was just too much.

Personally I think Blizzard should scale back on factions to grind upon release. Make fewer of them but make them more meaningful and involved.

Factions like August Celestials and Shado-Pan (So much wasted potential :/ ) that provide no real story context can DIAF if you ask me.

[mistuhbull]

The real problem is that the people who play WoW, specifically those who post on the forums, tend to be incapable of critical thought

Any content that is not directly related to raid or PvP performance is a waste of time and useless to these people (see factions from revered to exalted and factions like tillers and Anglers, as well as things like pet battles)

Any progression path that is not the optimal path is useless and a waste of resources to develop. In a perfect world, each faction would have daily quests, a tabard, some degree of mob rep, and a turn in. Unfortunately, as WoW players have shown us, is that any option outside the optimal one will be promptly ignored and then they will bitch about having to do the same thing over and over again. The faction that has been the best made so far is Wildhammer/Dragonmaw. Offered a full set of dailies to do for rep in addition to a rep tabard for dungeons.

[Fullgore]

I want tabards back

[bufferunderrun]

I don't mind grinding rep on my main it as always be like that maybe changing the amount of rep you get from every daily to 250 baseline like it used to be would be really appreciate; what i really don't get is: why they don't put a boa championing tabard at exalted for alts? Grinding a rep 1 time is ok grinding it for every alt is absolutely out of question.

[Pull My Finger]

Players suck. No, really. They're a schizophrenic lot. I really can't take the complainers seriosly any more, at all. What's Blizzard supposed to do? You've got the people who are telling you how grinding Timbermaw and Hydraxian Waterlords and having attunements was "epic" and "a journey" and can't stop bitching, and then you've got people who can't stop crapping in their diaper because they're asked to do a couple of dailies for a while. Sometimes I even get the feeling that it's the same folks.

Another problem is that a lot of people obviously actually don't want to play the game any more. They just want the results/the rewards. Log in for the scheduled raid, kill the boss, loot the gear, feel like a pr0, that's all they're interested in. Everything else is useless, boring, childish, "bad design", tedious, sucks, etc. They would like to kill the same boss over and over for several weeks and ideally, this would provide them with all rep, VP, XP, gold and anything else they need.

No matter what you do, some moron will instantly complain and make a tragedy out of it, because players simply aren't mature enough to just accept something and roll with it, or get the hell out of here and do something else.

[Granyala]

Grinding a rep 1 time is ok grinding it for every alt is absolutely out of question.

I'd get your argument if you could buy the items with Gold.
But you have to grind that stupid valor anyway, and are gated by it. So what is there left to do on an non raiding alt?

I long for the days when I could equip my alts with past content gear via JP and just ignore the boring Valor system. I get burned out so fast doing the cap every week... hell I'm even annoyed by the fact that I have to cap my raiding main. <_<

[darkpower]

I want tabards back

In a way, I think there could be a way to implement something like that while still giving Blizz what they are trying to do, which I do approve of. I've always said that once you get through the initial challenge, then what else do you prove by doing it multiple times? That's why I approve of the flying mounts: you've already proven yourself in those zones, and the mobs in said zones are of no challenge to you anymore (to the pont where you can stand there all day letting a one-shottable mob hit you without any consequence at all), so why should you have to go on ground through anything like that (note I'm saying this as someone who doesn't role on PvP realms because of how broken I think people's perception of what World PvP is right now).

Once you get exalted with a faction, then okay. You've done that grind, and you've done the work. So what gain do you have in doing the exact same grind at the exact same pace on two or three alts (we have 50 character slots per account for a reason)? Blizzard promotes the rolling of alts, but with how they have rep grinds set up (prior to the commendations, it was worse than what it is now), it seems to be working against playing alts. Thus, I thought that a good way is to have an heirloom tabard that a toon can get once that main reached exalted with a faction to give to alts to let those other toons be able to just do what they want to get rep. I wouldn't actually mind it (would mind it if it was available without having to do any work whatsoever) because it is after I do a month's worth of GL rep or something. Of course, you would still have to do the main quests to progress things like the Tillers (getting votes and clearing land in the farm) and the GL, so you might need to have a cap when you hit those milestones. I don't know how popular they would be right now, but it's worth considering.

But I would LOVE for them to at least remove the rep requirements on Valor gear. As raiders, we're at a bit of a crossroads. In 5.2, that upgrade guy is leaving us, putting us without a way to spend Valor unless we grind rep, and per what Blizz's original intentions were, we don't need to grind rep to get the best gear. So...what do they exactly want us to do WITH the Valor?

[Deleted]

Blizzard is just lazy.. cmon, look at everything they are doing.. and how long it takes them to make crappy quests. Almost like, oh ok and now let's throw in some crap quests for them to do, gather pig asses, and pick flowers! yeah, that will work!

[darkpower]

Players suck. No, really. They're a schizophrenic lot. I really can't take the complainers seriosly any more, at all. What's Blizzard supposed to do? You've got the people who are telling you how grinding Timbermaw and Hydraxian Waterlords and having attunements was "epic" and "a journey" and can't stop bitching, and then you've got people who can't stop crapping in their diaper because they're asked to do a couple of dailies for a while. Sometimes I even get the feeling that it's the same folks.

Another problem is that a lot of people obviously actually don't want to play the game any more. They just want the results/the rewards. Log in for the scheduled raid, kill the boss, loot the gear, feel like a pr0, that's all they're interested in. Everything else is useless, boring, childish, "bad design", tedious, sucks, etc. They would like to kill the same boss over and over for several weeks and ideally, this would provide them with all rep, VP, XP, gold and anything else they need.

No matter what you do, some moron will instantly complain and make a tragedy out of it, because players simply aren't mature enough to just accept something and roll with it, or get the hell out of here and do something else.

There's one thing wrong with the argument, and it's what I bolded. This tells me that you didn't separate the two arguments.

What if they don't like the dailies? Is there any other option for them to get rep? Is there any way for them to say that without people believing that they want the other extreme? What if a small amount of dailies is okay for them but asking them to do 15 per day for one faction they would love to see take a long walk off a short bridge every day is pushing it? Your statement made things too vague of a reason when it's a lot more complicated than just that.

[Wilian]

And once again I will bring in my insight on reputation system and it's short-comings!

Reputation - Back to roots.

After doing more dailies than one life-time requires, I started to ponder on the system and it's shortcomings. Especially in light of GC recently tweeting something about possibly putting a cap on reputation gains (A baffling choice if I might add)

I came into a conclusion that dailies are just not the way to go as main bread and butter when it comes to reputation. They should work as something extra that is there if you want to work on, or maybe a part of process that gets fulfilled when you're otherwise working on reputation.

When I look at reputation "grinds" (Which set amount of dailies certainly is not, it's just a chore to be done with) the best example of it all comes from all the way back of vanilla and Argent Dawn. Simply because of it's diversity if nothing else. There were TONS of ways you could gain rep with AD, especially at the end of vanilla. Let me list some of them:

Farming outdoor mobs up til friendly/honored (Depending on mob type)

Farming instance mobs up til honored (Bosses gave rep all the way to exalted)

Scourge Insignias, three types of them based on the strength of the undead mob and the drop rate was quite high. Required a trinket for drops but the AD blue trinket with AP/SP against undeads was extremely powerful for it's time.

Cauldron runs (Repeteable quests where you go gather mats from undeads to disable cauldrons)

8+ different resource turn-ins that were very farmable due to high drop rates but also came as an extra pretty much regardless of what you did. (These also gave you marks to buy some of the best pre-raid stuff from AD faction, along with biggest bag of the game at the time)

There was plenty of ways to increase rep with AD, none of which required daily commitment to reach certain level within the faction. On the contrary, it was all on the player's hand how fast or slow the progression happened instead of artificial barriers to slow down the process.

What also made a large difference was that you could farm AD rep on two separate zones and in two rather large instances (Strath being almoust half the size of Stormwind) and there was always some lone spot where you didn't have to compete with others if you wanted some peace.

None of them gave particulary much rep, the mobs awarded 5 rep per kill 'til the limit, resource turn ins 50 and insignia turn ins some more. But it was continuous process on which player could dictate how to spend the time and if he didn't, something always piled up regardless.

All we have nowdays is pretty much just dailies, dailies and some more dailies (With rare exceptions, depending on a faction, and even then the rarity of the rep item makes it hardly feasible.) and I don't think the system that was so diverse before required such dumbing down as it came to be and I'd love to see some inspiration taken on how AD rep worked out in the end.

[bufferunderrun]

I'd get your argument if you could buy the items with Gold.
But you have to grind that stupid valor anyway, and are gated by it. So what is there left to do on an non raiding alt?

I long for the days when I could equip my alts with past content gear via JP and just ignore the boring Valor system. I get burned out so fast doing the cap every week... hell I'm even annoyed by the fact that I have to cap my raiding main. <_<

This higly depend on how much time you can dedicate to the game on a daily basis, there is alot of peoples that can play alts only on weekends this is why the old method was really appreciated because you can decide when you do the 7 heroics to gain points+rep.

[Vaelorian]

What Wilian said.... they have changed the reputationgrind like a zillion times. I didn't hear any complaints about that much back then. We just did it. And could also do it at our own pace, whenever we wanted too, for how long we wanted too.

But I also understand the new philosophy of Blizzard, wanting to slow the reputationgrind.

What I don't understand is why it is ONLY gated behind dailies. And yes I know there is a "solution" comming with a next patch. But... it only solves the issue so much.

I've proposed again and again to have a weekly cap on reputation. This means that besides dailies, there must be other ways to gain reputation.

Coming to mind are:
- tabards again (don't like this idea much anymore)
- specific dungeons for every reputation
- killing specific monsters who drop something the faction wants
- creating items for a specific reputation (much like getting buddies with the Tillers, only in large amounts)
- etc.

The thing is that players who cannot do them dailies EVERYDAY, can do other stuff if they should wish it. And people who hate dailies have other ways to get reputation.

The thing I hate the most is the feeling (note, I said "feeling") that I am forced to log in the game every day to grind those dailies. While I am at the end of the grind with my main and almost with an alt, I also want to make/level more alts = the daily crap keeps continuing.

[Huehuecoyotl]

it isnt about them changing the way you get reputation; its about changing it so that there is only ONE way to get it.

this is what Blizzard have been doing for some years now, and for me it is the main underlying reason why people are walking away from this game. they are defining how people should play the game. exactly how they should play the game. no wiggle room......you do this zone in this order. you do these dailies. this is the path, you dont step off it.

it is control freak design, and it turns the gameplay from the RPG it originally was into what feels like a 3D version of a 1980s sideway scroller.

sure, leave the dailies in as ONE choice for getting your rep. but also let people get it from doing heroics. or BGs. or gathering special mats that you get while doing normal gathering. or crafting. give people the option to "champion" a reputation, and get rep by playing the game the way they enjoy.

their current philosophy is what is damaging this game, imo. they need to change, and change fast.