Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
  1. #41
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    The Anti-Frost Mage Camp.
    Posts
    16,415
    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    There were more people in the game during TBC than now, yet there were actual realm communities around then. So clearly your argument is wrong.
    And yet subscriptions peaked in Wrath. How very strange.

    Because of the exact reason I stated in the very text you quoted. Is there some rule against reading the comment you're replying to around here?
    No, you basically gave a cop out excuse as to why you don't do it.

    You are mistaken. It impacted me negatively, and I was in a guild. You need to go back and rethink your argument.
    Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. Anecdotally, nothing changed for me between vanilla and now in terms of instances save that it got a lot easier after LFD.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    Well the bottom line is, if people changed from the old ways as soon as another, more convenient option was available (speaking of things like LFD, LFR, Random BGs, etc) then obviously those people didn't like the old way too much.
    You see, when you study sociology and/or social policy and the 'unintended consequences' it can have on human behaviour, you will quickly realise this above statement couldn't be further from the truth. Further, the 'old way' of playing didn't just vanish over night as everyone migrated to the new system. A lot of people predicted and rightly said at the time that LFD was not good for the long term health of the game and server communities and resisted it. Rather, the pool of players willing to sign up to the old ways of dungeoning simply dried up over time as convenience and consumerism trumped social niceties.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 07:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    And yet subscriptions peaked in Wrath. How very strange.
    So you mean it peaked about the time LFD was implemented and then it went down hill from there? Interesting. Of course I will concede there may be many reasons for why WoW peaked then and gone down hill since, but I would wager that the diminishing effect that cross-realm features have had on server communities is a significant factor that can't be dismissed just on a whim.
    "If you look out of the window as a human being, at nature, all of nature is unconditionally and absolutely beautiful wherever it is. Whether it's a jungle. Whether it's a desert. Whether it's the Arctic wastes. Or even your own back garden. The only ugly things you will ever see when you look out of the window are things made by man." - Stephen Fry

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by lios View Post
    MMO is just a game with multiple players in a persistent world. Never did it mean you have to interact socially with these people. Hell, you can be not social in the real world and still do fine. How is that possible, as the world is full of people, just like an MMO? I mainly play solo, plenty of single player things to do
    MMOs didnt used to be just game with multiple players in a persistent world, This wierd mutation is something new that slowly inhabitates todays MMO scene I believe, Never was it meant to interact socially with these people eh? Why then the game has content that requires ASSISTANCE OF OTHER PLAYERS to complete then? Worst analogy ever... and unrealistic. I would love to see a single human being that doesnt interact with other human beings their entire life and get the best out of it PS: forest dwellers do not count.

    Classic:
    - Server A, 1000 people, so called tight-knit community. Reputation haunted you.
    - Server B, 800 people, so called tight-knit community. Reputation haunted you.
    - Server C, 1400 people, so called tight-knit community. Reputation haunted you.

    After LFG:
    - Server Pool A+B+C, 3200 people, oh we suddenly don't care about what anyone does, even if you're a moron. Reputation doesn't matter.
    That's because blizzard did something that I would call "bad parenting". You see there used to be such a thing that was not written down called gaming etiquete, it used to segregate humans from sub-humans who were poisonous to others. The great thing about it was that it seperated people to their respective cattegories so that asshats played only with those who were willing to put up with them from those who had a humble but decent code of acting in group enviourment. It's not a mystery or secret that a decent group of folks who give a damn about one another has a bigger chance to succed in group content over a group of tools who view the content as point grind and each other as "is he good enough to keep up and not slow me down". Those kind of groups were put to a test in early Cata and those who were there know what happened. Obviously decent folks analyzed their mistakes after a wipe and if had to improved or replaced. Tools on the other hands... one wipe > internal blame crossfire and group disband.

    So what did happened after that? Blizzard recoginzed that tools are forced to co-operate and actually put effort into the game and initially said it straight to their face("Dungeons are Hard" blog") what happened next? 2 million sub drop and commencing to nerf every content that dared to wipe even those tools. Instead of keeping the bar at a decent level, blizzard lowered it to their "standard" and accepted that their player base in general cant CC, co-operate and use the most of their avaiable class skills. What happened next is those who could keep up to the standard started to decay in term of their skill capacity, it's called ghetto-ing. No more need to communicate, co-ordinate, co-operate with other people, the system covers your incompetence in social skills but using group finder, the system covers your incompetence with 2 hour kick cooldown, the system covers your poisonous attitude with name+shame policy. The game protects you from everything that can go wrong with inter-player relations... but wait. Why are they there now that all I need from them is DPS/TPS/HPS?

    Which still doesnt anwser my question. Why is WoW still an MMO when great majority of its player use WoW's succesful tools to do inter-human interaction content without inter-human interaction?

    The community itself is to blame for the lack of community. There is no reason why people cared about reputation with 800-1400 people and not with 3200 people (fictional numbers, of course). If you just kick people from your LFG group as you would kick people from your server group, the effect will be the same. You can ignore, just like before, you can communicate with people from different servers if you want them to know about a certain person, nothing changed. The only thing that changed is that there are more people on 'your server'.
    Wrong. The difference is that this new system didnt just banded people together. It gived them ANONYMITY. Allow me to show you this simple picture that pretty much explains all issues that occur on the internet and its games:

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RzStRghlUi.../anonymous.jpg
    Does it look familiar to your average group experience in WoW? Because it sure does to me. Why does blizzard catter to such people? because they pay the same money? yeah but they also make other people stop paying the same money, even their own kind. The ironic thing about total dickwards is that they are disliked (if not hated) by everyone, including other total dickwards. Catter to them and you create a poisonous apathethic swamp of homophobia and incompetence that can only handle MFPS campaign level of challenge. Yeah sure it is a proffitbale swamp given that it is still the biggest franchise in MMO scene even if it loses half of its current subs, but dont you find it wierd how not cattering to such group made WoW grow? Lets do not forget that WoW started out as less grindy Everquest.

    People like to blame their own failure on Blizzard. When I'm in a group and someone goes on follow, does nothing and rolls need on everything, I announce that I want to kick that person. Then 3 others refuse to do so, because it's faster to just finish it with the leech then kick him and wait for replacement. I then leave the group myself. Do you really think those people had a good community in Classic? Of course not, they were the same back then (if they played) and simply don't care about ethics and community. Removing LFG won't change that. They wouldn't kick someone from their own server either. In fact, it is even less likely that they'd kick anyone when LFG wouldn't exist, because it took an HOUR to get the group in the first place and getting a replacement would take forever too.
    At the very least such people were seperated from decent folks while their radiation of incompetence didnt caused other to ghetto down to their level. Also the hour long group forming was caused by community itself, That's why you should act like Good Guy Greg and roll a tank/healer. Before you call me on how we can avoid those people by group forming the old way... yeah sure but you are shoting yourself in the leg unless Blizzard introduced equal opportunity on VP gain via non LFD group forming, Im talking about extra VP for using inter-human interaction tool (LFx) instead of... inter-human interaction...

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-10 at 06:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeletroll View Post
    I've never really played this game as a "social game", always leveled alone since classic even if i had few friends back then. Though i did dailies as a group in TBC and Cata, in pandaria i have 2 x pandarian loremaster and have not done single daily in a group. My friend list been empty since 4.3 and i prefer it that way, thanks.

    And i think most of the "there is no community today"-whiners never really helped to establish their community in any way back then. You can still be a part of community today if you really want.
    Untill blizzard implements features that denies community any point of existance. Yes community is about creating a better place for all players but there also has to be some tangible reward like easier group forming so that we could convert some people to act decent. A certain ammount of responsibility and looking behind your back has never killed anyone, that was makes us civil.

  4. #44
    yeah it sure doesnt take me hours with a pre lfd system. maybe sometimes u cant get a group because its late at night but i played for the immersive world. most of the fun is the people you meet and play with for me. playing with random people that are cross realm is my most hated thing in a game like this (mmorpg) thats why i like playing private servers. just having no cross realm at all is a lot more immersive and especially no random dungeon finder its a lot of fun

    but blizzard will never change it and i accept that
    Last edited by IHateJayWilson; 2013-02-10 at 06:16 AM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    And yet subscriptions peaked in Wrath. How very strange.
    Sub growth stalled in Wrath. It hit the "peak" soon after launch, which was barely over TBC end numbers, and then remained static for the whole of Wrath.

    No, you basically gave a cop out excuse as to why you don't do it.
    No, here it is again, read it over and over until you actually understand what it says:

    "Why would I spend time building a group, or join someone else's group, when I can get the same rewards much more easily? I know that if building the group was the only way to do it I would do it, and I would enjoy the game much more for it, but in the current system I would feel like a complete idiot for trying to do things in a less efficient way."

    Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. Anecdotally, nothing changed for me between vanilla and now in terms of instances save that it got a lot easier after LFD.
    A single observation that contradicts your theory is enough to invalidate your theory. That's how falsifiability works. Sorry champ.

  6. #46
    I've been playing since the launch of Vanilla WoW and I can't say that there used to be some "server community" back then that doesn't exist any more. It's just not true. The server population was always a rather diffuse mass.

    The only thing that probably diminished was this tight-knit subsociety of top raiding guilds and associates. Those people tend to mistake themselves and their dealings for "the server community", and live in the assumption that everyone cares what they do and they define the realm in a way.

    That whole kind of the "top 1%" society thing probably HAS vaned. But to be honest - that's not a bad thing anyway. I used to be a hardcore raider in Vanilla WoW and my experience is that this kind of society was there primarly out of necessity and dependence. The big guilds used to badmouth and cannibalize each other, and since the profanation of content through the tools we have today, they started dissolving. And that's their own fault. If you're so interested in community, why don't you preserve it.

    The notion of "community" some people have is pretty dubious. Tools like LFD and LFR have brought with them that much more people can enjoy the game without subjecting themselves to arbitrariness, customs and conventions of others. And that's great.
    Last edited by Pull My Finger; 2013-02-10 at 10:34 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •