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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    Why would you "fight" the EA? Why would you just not give them your business?

    You and many gamers like you are either taking it way too personally that you're not getting things the way you want them, or are confusing free market transactions with political causes.
    You should retune your Obvious Sarcasm detector.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    I really hope each book and movie came with 20 pages of Terms of Use papers which you have to sign in order to read the book.
    If they did, I would simply not purchase them. I wouldn't go on forums and bitch that the publisher wouldn't sell me the book at my price or otherwise sell me their product on my terms rather than their own, and I certainly wouldn't assert that I was entitled to read the book in question even if I wasn't willing to come to an agreement with the seller, or wasn't willing to honor such an agreement.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 12:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    You should retune your Obvious Sarcasm detector.
    My bad, I was assuming your second post was written with the same irrational and spoiled mindset that your first one was.

  3. #23
    Elemental Lord Hyve's Avatar
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    Why don't more companies just follow the method that Team Fortress 2 uses?

    I've spent some cash on there, because I see other people playing with different weapons, tools or gadgets and I want to try them out! I've spend over £20 on Team Fortress 2, cash that they wouldn't have got if they asked me to do it in-game and it was almost compulsory to get better at the game, where as in Team Fortress 2, it is more about style.

    I like playing with the Bow, so I bought it.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    If they did, I would simply not purchase them. I wouldn't go on forums and bitch that the publisher wouldn't sell me the book at my price or otherwise sell me their product on my terms rather than their own, and I certainly wouldn't assert that I was entitled to read the book in question even if I wasn't willing to come to an agreement with the seller, or wasn't willing to honor such an agreement.
    You're very much in hurry to turn this whole discussion into yet another boring pointless narrow mindless entitlement argument while it's supposed to be about discussing if and where the line in this type of things should be drawn.

    Of course I know I can vote with my wallet, which I do. I haven't bought single EA game in years. It does not mean I want to drop out or wouldn't be interested in discussion about the direction of the industry and whetever it is good, harmful or whatever from customer perspective, especially on cases that has been well established norms of PC gaming for as long as the whole PC gaming has existed, hell, gaming in itself has existed.
    Last edited by Wilian; 2013-02-08 at 12:45 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    You're very much in hurry to turn this whole discussion into yet another boring pointless narrow mindless entitlement argument while it's supposed to be about discussing if and where the line in this type of things should go.

    Of course I know I can vote with my wallet, which I do. I haven't bought single EA game in years. It does not mean I want to drop out or wouldn't be interested in discussion about the direction of the industry and whetever it is good, harmful or whatever from customer perspective, especially on cases that has been well established norms of PC gaming for as long as the whole PC gaming has existed, hell, gaming in itself has existed.
    The direction the gaming industry will go with downloaded content and increasingly controlling terms of use is that it will continue until customers are willing to say no and stop buying, perhaps along with contacting to company to let them know why, rather than buy and bitch about the cost structure of the product. Continued piracy and game file tweaking is only going to fuel their urge to put in measures of control over their games. They're never just gonna buckle and say "okay fine, do whatever you want", at least not as long as people continue to buy.

  6. #26
    Immortal Dezerte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    The only "rights" you have if you don't accept a company's terms for buying their product is the right not to purchase it.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_protection

    "It's okay to steal something if the owner won't sell it under my terms."

    I hope someday a similarly minded person steals your car after you refuse to sell it to him.
    Excellent analogy, not.
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    My bad, I was assuming your second post was written with the same irrational and spoiled mindset that your first one was.
    The first one was intentional hyperbole to give perspective of how easily gaming industry can get away with things that get more and more draconian every year because no one seem to care as everything is hidden under shroud of convenience and tens of pages of legal mumbo jumbo you almoust need to hire a lawyer for to actually understand it 100%.

    Did you ever stop to wonder why the screen that shows the typical EULA/ToS is relatively small compared to the I AGREE button?

    The only "rights" you have if you don't accept a company's terms for buying their product is the right not to purchase it.
    This still doesn't hold against national laws when they cross, atleast here in Europe/Finland

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_protection
    Consumer protection is mostly about fraud and debt collection. There is no fraud here. This is them saying "here is your game for X dollars" and you buying it for X dollars. The fact that they offer you additional OPTIONAL purchase options that change your gameplay experience is not fraud. You can still complete the game without buying extra items.

    Complaining about micro-transactions is like complaining that Steak 'n' Shake will only put chili on my burger if I pay, even though I really want chili and feel that it should come included in the price I'm already paying for my burger. The fact that they're optional renders the entire discussion of right and wrong completely moot.

    For this particular game, if the issue is just an in-game bug that requires no file tampering, then that is definitely their fault for releasing the game with that bug. I'm sure that their terms of use allow for them to fix bugs and nullify their results, however.

  9. #29
    If it's a single player game, who cares if you cheat.

    If it's an MMO, if you can't play the game without cheating, maybe it's time to find an easier game.
    Co-GM of The Psijic Order (NA)

    Tam! RUGH!

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    This still doesn't hold against national laws when they cross, atleast here in Europe/Finland
    Any law that restricts a producer's ability to negotiate (or demand, if they are not willing to negotiate) the terms, price-wise and otherwise, under which it will sell a product is a bad law, no better than a law granting that producer the authority to compel consumers to buy their products even when they don't agree to price/terms. Purchases need to be a two-way agreement between producer and consumer. Anything else is profoundly unjust.

  11. #31
    Immortal Dezerte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    Consumer protection is mostly about fraud and debt collection. There is no fraud here. This is them saying "here is your game for X dollars" and you buying it for X dollars. The fact that they offer you additional OPTIONAL purchase options that change your gameplay experience is not fraud. You can still complete the game without buying extra items.

    Complaining about micro-transactions is like complaining that Steak 'n' Shake will only put chili on my burger if I pay, even though I really want chili and feel that it should come included in the price I'm already paying for my burger. The fact that they're optional renders the entire discussion of right and wrong completely moot.

    For this particular game, if the issue is just an in-game bug that requires no file tampering, then that is definitely their fault for releasing the game with that bug. I'm sure that their terms of use allow for them to fix bugs and nullify their results, however.
    Again, with the poor analogies.
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tabbycat View Post
    If it's a single player game, who cares if you cheat.
    The game creators care, and they have every right to demand that their creations remain unmodified. The more you chip away at that right, both with law and with general societal behavior, the more you will chip away at their incentive to continue creating products.

    At present, the market for games is growing faster than this chipping away effect, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that the consumers who refuse to respect this right will chip too hard, and we'll see a decline in the industry if so.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-08 at 01:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Again, with the poor analogies.
    Again, with the non-answer showing your lack of logic and knowledge on this topic.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    but it's not out of the realm of possibility that the consumers who refuse to respect this right will chip too hard, and we'll see a decline in the industry if so.
    I wouldn't mind, the decennial video game crash is already way overdue.

  14. #34
    Immortal Dezerte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post

    Again, with the non-answer showing your lack of logic and knowledge on this topic.
    I can already tell by your attitude that it's going to be a waste of time for me to explain. If you do happen to care, I recently watched a video on the Dead Space
    3/Sim City 5 issues by TB (TotalBiscuit), specifically one of his Content Patch episodes and the "WTF is" on Dead Space 3. You could watch those if you're interested, or you could continue with the little "righteous act" you have going here.

    I'm guessing the later.
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    I wouldn't mind, the decennial video game crash is already way overdue.
    That sort of vindictive attitude is so pointless and unproductive. If you wouldn't mind then your only response should be to stop buying video games. Perhaps your "wouldn't mind" is purely apathetic and neutral, but if you have any desire whatsoever to see an industry decline, then you must be really self-centered, because the only difference between an industry decline and you just not participating in the industry anymore is that with the former, other gamers who are still willing to buy games will be negatively impacted, not to mention the companies themselves and everyone they, and all businesses that are supported by their products, employ.

    As a parallel, I find Justin Bieber's music repulsive, but I'm not selfish and petty enough to wish that his copyrights were undermined to the point where he quit making music. Instead I just don't listen to him.

  16. #36
    Stood in the Fire Korbany's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    It's a retarded, frustrating response to piracy. Piracy leads to DRM, DLC and micro-transactions, which leads to more piracy, which leads to a grim future for gaming.
    It is not a response to piracy, but rather a shitty business practice that simply uses piracy as an excuse.

    DRM, DLC and micro-transactions would all have still been introduced even if there was no piracy at all. The best way to counter this rampant anti consumer trend is to boycott the unethical corporations behind them and to support the smaller consumer friendly companies.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Magpai View Post
    Complaining about micro-transactions is like complaining that Steak 'n' Shake will only put chili on my burger if I pay, even though I really want chili and feel that it should come included in the price I'm already paying for my burger. The fact that they're optional renders the entire discussion of right and wrong completely moot.
    Actually it would be more accurate if you bought the non-chili version and then put your own chili stuff inside it, with the Steak 'n' Shakes seller coming after and complaining that now they didn't get the money for it.

    It also holds for the multiplayer aspect too! You can't really add chili to the burger if more are to eat from it and they don't want such thing unless you're an ass.

    Though it would probably have to be a four slice pizza because sharing burger would obviously be an copyright infrigement.
    Last edited by Wilian; 2013-02-08 at 01:42 PM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korbany View Post
    It is not a response to piracy, but rather a shitty business practice that simply uses piracy as an excuse.

    DRM, DLC and micro-transactions would all have still been introduced even if there was no piracy at all. The best way to counter this rampant anti consumer trend is to boycott the unethical corporations behind them and to support the smaller consumer friendly companies.
    though how come people still pirate DRM free games from GoG and games from the humble indie bundles? or just not pay enough so the company even has to pay for the transaction? if all everyone is wanting is to hate on the bad companies why do people still screw over those who are trying to be good?
    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier, TF2
    "You were good son, real good; maybe even the best."
    Quote Originally Posted by Larath
    www.predictthescore.net 18263957 is the code to join the MMO-Champion Mini-League.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Larath View Post
    though how come people still pirate DRM free games from GoG and games from the humble indie bundles? or just not pay enough so the company even has to pay for the transaction? if all everyone is wanting is to hate on the bad companies why do people still screw over those who are trying to be good?
    People are cheapskates and piracy is not confined into one single type of action. Personally I think that pirating game in spite of someone you dislike is counter-productive as you still show that you want the product, just not pay for it.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    Actually it would be more accurate if you bought the non-chili version and then put your own chili stuff inside it, with the Steak 'n' Shakes seller coming after and complaining that now they didn't get the money for it.
    If you're modifying the game files they created (and copyrighted), it's more like going into their kitchen and using their chili without paying for it in both a legal and non-legal moral sense, IMO.

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