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  1. #1
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Death Siphon 5.2

    Not sure if it's on the current PTR (as I haven't had a chance to log on to the PTR yet) but with Death Siphon buffed to 150% damage/healing and the new PVP damage-healing conversion change (not being impacted by resilience) how much healing would you expect to get out of 1x Death Siphon and would it be impacted by PVP power?

    Seems like it might actually be pretty competitive as a sustained heal/kiting talent for unholy, anyone had a chance to test it or run some numbers?

    Cheers
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  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    Not sure if it's on the current PTR (as I haven't had a chance to log on to the PTR yet) but with Death Siphon buffed to 150% damage/healing and the new PVP damage-healing conversion change (not being impacted by resilience
    In the current build, 150% is working, but the no resili healing isn't in the patch yet. So no real numbers able to be given unfortunately.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 07:48 AM ----------

    So did a new test tonight with Build 16562.

    Attacked a pally with 61.74% resili and I had 46.79% pvp power.

    The Siphon crit for 27035 and healed for 50541. If it was getting reduced by resili it should of healed for 40k if my math is right.

    So yay! its fixed!

  3. #3
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    50k heal is not shabby! DP will likely still be better but yay, that's pretty cool. Thanks for the test!
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  4. #4
    Moderator Fnx-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    50k heal is not shabby! DP will likely still be better but yay, that's pretty cool. Thanks for the test!
    DP will still be on top for both PVE and PVP, unless they change something before the patch go live.

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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnx- View Post
    DP will still be on top for both PVE and PVP, unless they change something before the patch go live.
    I think you're underestimating Conversion. It's essentially a permanent Second Wind due to its extremely low Runic Power cost. However it will reduce your Death Coil pressure quite significantly, but I don't think it's completely out of the equation like Death Siphon currently is. Death's Advance pillar-hugging with Conversion up could be really nice when your healer is in CC. For PvE DP will obviously be better becuase it's all about damage.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Senathor View Post
    I think you're underestimating Conversion. It's essentially a permanent Second Wind due to its extremely low Runic Power cost. However it will reduce your Death Coil pressure quite significantly, but I don't think it's completely out of the equation like Death Siphon currently is.
    It's still way too expensive for what it does..
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    It's still way too expensive for what it does..

    You are a PvE player so of course it is. PvE is all about Recount stats. See it from a PvP perspective.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-09 at 03:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fnx- View Post
    DP will still be on top for both PVE and PVP, unless they change something before the patch go live.
    I know you're a mod and all (you get free bash immunity) but please don't speak of PvP like that when you're clearly a PvE player. In your mind it probably goes like this "less damage, must be bad". Becuase with less damage nobody wants you and I can understand that. But just think of how much more healing this has. You can heal over a million in less than 2 min.
    Last edited by Senathor; 2013-02-09 at 02:56 PM.

  8. #8
    Brewmaster Advent's Avatar
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    Doesn't matter, unless you're frost. the extra GCD to summon then DP you ghoul may wind up being less reliable than DSiphon for pvp. But you also have to remember that DS costs a death rune, not always on demand for unholy. It all depends. Don't underestimate the mods because they pve. I'm sure they can consider both angles.
    A typical raid leader command would be something like "Yo Scrub, why don't you YOLO 1337 yards to the left because the boss's Swag is about to hit us in 3 seconds".
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFuFanta View Post
    Oh my god, a company tries to put some lore flavor into the game mechanics, all is lost, whatever shall we do without a whole 1% of crit or haste.
    Quick, call Ukraine and Russia, let them know to put their conflict on standby because Touch of Elune is BULLSHIT!

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Ermahgerd's Avatar
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    I believe Battle Fatigue isn't working on the PTR yet. And sometimes battle fatigue doesn't work in duels. So other the healing will still be reduced, or it stays this way. Either way it's kind of "meh" IMO. Death Pact is free of cost (besides taking 50% of your ghouls HP) while conversion is a steady hot that basically heals you up to full if you have a full runic power bar.

    Senathor, even from a pvp point of view Death Siphon is pretty poor. We're being forced to use death runes with death siphon, which could be used for necrotic strikes instead. And having to give of Death Pact for it is kinda poor.

    For soloing death siphon might be a great ability, but I doubt any DK will take it above death pact and conversion. Perhaps in BGs for some steady healing.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Senathor View Post
    I know you're a mod and all (you get free bash immunity) but please don't speak of PvP like that when you're clearly a PvE player. In your mind it probably goes like this "less damage, must be bad". Becuase with less damage nobody wants you and I can understand that. But just think of how much more healing this has. You can heal over a million in less than 2 min.
    There's no such thing as bash immunity for anyone on this site; spreading misinformation isn't exclusive to regular users.

    OT: It looks like we're finally gonna be able to make an actual choice for PvP on T4.
    Last edited by Vereesa; 2013-02-09 at 03:24 PM.
    Vereesa of Paragon, formerly of Depraved
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  11. #11
    Unholy with conversion and in blood pres seems to be kinda good, cuts dmg a bit, but its easy to top yourself off in seconds. It seems to me that each ability is going to have its uses.

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire LummyBear's Avatar
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    dp will always be stronger, ~2400 dk.

  13. #13
    High Overlord Symph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Doesn't matter, unless you're frost. the extra GCD to summon then DP you ghoul may wind up being less reliable than DSiphon for pvp. But you also have to remember that DS costs a death rune, not always on demand for unholy. It all depends. Don't underestimate the mods because they pve. I'm sure they can consider both angles.
    You can summon your ghoul and DP in the same GCD.

  14. #14
    From what i saw from PTR against pvp geared opponents (and some youtube vids), even considering some players weren't the "best" conversion can still be up all the time thx to the runic power on snare proc from pvp gear (who doesn't have a snare ?).
    It's better than second wind since it's on demand and considering how hard some warriors were to kill under 35% it's far from shit.
    Of course, i'm talking about arena and small scale pvp, for RBG the burst heal from ghoul sac is better i'm sure.
    We need to consider that war/feral/mages etc burst got toned down a bit.

  15. #15
    It's not really anything to do with Conversion being too expensive etc, it's that it completely cripples your resource system. A (runes) feeds B (RP) which in turn feeds A, it's a wonderful little circle jerk. When you throw in Conversion you no longer have the RP to regenerate your runes which you need to survive or pop other defensive CD's (runes generate RP yes? IBF costs RP yes? Conversion mullers your RP yes).

    Second Wind is great because it passively heals you leaving you free to spend your resources offensively, Conversion on the other hand cripples both your defence and offence. If you wanted a burst heal DP is better, if you wanted a better sustained heal Death Siphon probably works better. Not mathed this beyond this napkin math. Death Siphon on PTR, 50k heal and 10RP, Conversion on PTR 3% heal for 10RP so with my 400k HP that's a heal for 12k.

    The only advantage of Conversion is available all the time, but if you want to consider having Death Runes available etc then it's just as easy to say your not likely to have a full RP pool to burn on Conversion either......it's not exactly on demand considering how expensive it is.

  16. #16
    I feel like I would rather have conversion and the ability to turtle when needed and still have my death runes for other things. I think so many people are used to warriors raping your face in defensive stance taking almost no damage that they think everyone should be like that too. If I am getting bursted on or my healer is sitting some cc or perhaps I got out of position, I would rather have a skill I can toggle on and turtle as much as possible rather than a heal once every 2 minutes. People talking about the rp cost boning your runes and offense are thinking we should have it on all the time and still killing people. That is just not going to be smart play.

    Remember as well the rp gen from pvp set bonus and the fact that if you spam a !conversion macro it will toggle twice per gcd healing you effectively for 6%. No idea if that is a tech fix or if it will go live like that.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    I would rather have a skill I can toggle on and turtle as much as possible rather than a heal once every 2 minutes. People talking about the rp cost boning your runes and offense are thinking we should have it on all the time and still killing people. That is just not going to be smart play.
    I'm saying you can't turtle with Conversion because you will be left with no resources to turtle with. Spending runes on Death Siphon and Death Strike will net you more healing than spamming Death Strike alone and using Conversion. I'm not on the DK QQ train, I don't want to see us be anything like Warriors were at the start of the season, I think are defences are perfectly fine and I am quite happy to look at other Platey's as a hard counter.

    I think all anyone's saying here is that Conversion is just bad because it's too expensive to run in any form of sustained use and isn't bursty enough to actually help you when your being trained. If it's saving grace is that you can macro it and exploit some bug then I'd count more on the bug being fixed than Conversion being buffed.

  18. #18
    The Patient
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    Conversion has a rune cost, effectivly, as does Siphon...and a death rune at that. They'll be alot better, but pact will still be king.

  19. #19
    I bet they will remove the runic power regeneration from our 2 set bonus and glove bonus before live hits or in a hotfix. Feels like its an oversight that is making it too strong since conversion specifically says only base runic power generation from spending runes may occur while conversion is active.

    My opinion on conversion vs death pact is if you are being trained all game conversion could be better but it definitely wont be better if you never get a chance to turn it off to land a kill. I dont know about you guys but death coil is my top damaging ability when I do arena. If we can only use the proc ones then we will be doing a lot less pressure than you guys are thinking and on the ptr many of you aren't thinking of battle fatigue(which currently isn't working) and mortal strike. The reason warriors 2nd wind was/is so good is 25% less damage compared to our 15% and they can heroic leap and pillar. We have no way to go from middle of the arena to pillar in a split second when getting heavily bursted on.

    Death pact is just awesome you can get the full heal from it if used together with a bop to get rid of mortal strike debuff and it allows you to go full offensive in order to pressure something without worrying about dying with it ready for use. Only downside is the CD. Another thing to think about is conversion and lich heal are both runic power heals. You cant use both at the same time or you are just wasting it. Lets say you are using conversion and still are dipping low and now have to heal with lich heals you will be out of runic power or the other way you lich heal cause you got bursted on but it still wasn't enough to keep you alive you no longer have the runic power to use conversion.
    Last edited by Xevz; 2013-02-10 at 01:51 AM.

  20. #20
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    Doesn't matter, unless you're frost. the extra GCD to summon then DP you ghoul may wind up being less reliable than DSiphon for pvp. But you also have to remember that DS costs a death rune, not always on demand for unholy. It all depends. Don't underestimate the mods because they pve. I'm sure they can consider both angles.
    If you aren't bad and macro DP with your ghoul, it doesn't cost an extra GCD. Even better, you can pop blood presence before sac and get even more of a heal, since it heals for 50% on your MAX hp. And DS costs 1 frost and 1 unholy rune, not 1 death rune, so you obviously have no idea what youre talkign about.

    Edit - Never mind, I'm an idiot...youre talkign DS as death Siphon, not Death strike. Siphon is still a subpar choice for pvp though
    Last edited by forwards1ca; 2013-02-10 at 05:39 AM.

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