Disc Vs Holy 5.2

[Miko]

Using the same twisted logic I can say that disc is gimping the raid by sniping heals, but does not provide enough healing power when it really matters and you are 10x better to bring holy, which is stronger there. Your argument, is illogical and unsubstantiated and the only thing it does achieve is make everyone tripple /facepalm. Holy has excellent throughput useful CDs and great mobility. Disc sniping heals and achieving higher HPS does not make an appreciable difference to your raid in the majority of the current tier.

Maleric: Ok fair enough I can see your point, but I dont think the toolkit problem is a very big issue. It's ok for disc to be weak at a particular style of healing, given that it has utility. For me the thorny point is throughput.

Using this formula to calculate breakpoints: crit =(1+0.5*mastery)*(1+mastery)/(1.6*(1.5+mastery)) - 0.5/(1+mastery)

And using the optimal crit/mastery of 18%/38.4%, for my current gear level fully raid buffed, then using my unbuffed int value (the buff won't affect the relationship) as PoH heals for 31152 base.

As disc the formula is base*(1+0.5*mastery)*(1+crit*(1+mastery)), so 31152/2.5*(1+0.5*0.384)*(1+0.18*(1+0.384)) = 18554 HPS per target. The crit part is the absorbs so out of that HPS 20% is absorbs. That means PoH spam with my unbuffed int value does not even hit 100k HPS!!

Using the same values as holy (24% mastery 18% crit) in blue chakra.

base*(1+crit)*(1+mastery)*1.25 --> 31152/2.5*1.18*1.24*1.25 = 22 791 per target and 24% of that is the EoL HoT.

Now consider that CoH is a slightly shorter CD than penance and when glyphed more healing per CD and that glyphed PoM for holy is MUCH stronger due to DI and especially considering that 2set PoM is nearly 2x the HPS of 5stack penance and on top of that that cascade/divine star is larger and that serendipity is a stronger boost than borrowed time and that you still have sanctuary for a stacked raid, while like it or not is an HPS increase and you can see that disc is just too far behind holy on raw throughput.

Seriously though PoM for holy in blue chakra heals nearly as much as PoH does even though the tooltip spazzes out and reports completely the wrong value.

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For me holy just needs 10s CD on chakras, sanctuary buffed, serenity giving a longer buff so you can keep it up all the time, smite chakra also increasing ST healing (gh, fh, bh, renew), divine star, CoH and PoM by 15%. The the spec will be very strong then.

I think a lot of people don't quite realise just how much DPS holy can do right now. Its actually sick. I am destroying 480 geared (but obviously not very skilled) dps specs in heroics.

If the raid dosnt have a disc and you could bring a disc or a holy, you bring a disc. Holy has no place as other healers do what a holy does but better. Look at wogs. Look at how many people are holy. Holy is in the same spot as a Rdruid. You say what you want, but the logs don't lie. If you have a disc why bring a holy also when you could bring a shammy.

[ramennoodleking]

The logs do lie when people bring disc as fotm, simply because you can snipe heals by casting PoH on alternating groups. The DA gets absorbed first, making disc look better on numbers. The sample pool of holy priests is small because most priests opt for disc since its easier to be bad at the spec and still look good than it is for holy. The skill cap is high for disc, but anyone can just PoH and smite and look like they know what they are doing.

[Miko]

The reason for this is because it's a stronger healing spec. They are not getting nerfs for being balanced.

[vanityking]

I feel like this thread has been focused more on the past of disc vs holy not the future. All I know is, should my guild continue to raid 5.0 raids for achievements or what not, there is no way I'll be doing Tsulong as disc :P

[Miko]

I hope the next patch is different. As of now they break fight mechanics and can push dps. They are almost always the top of the charts and make every raw healers job easier. The two classes are different. Disc just brings something holy can't. Other healers can fill the role a holy does. Of the two different specs disc is better. I wouldn't raid as sub. I would raid combat or mutilate. The thread was disc vs holy.

[Deleted]

Actually I forgot that holy also has evangelism. Basically all dps spells hit for 50% more from holy, the only difference is penance, but with holy you can afford to stack haste and use shadow spells too, which offsets penance quite a lot. Holy fire in smite chakra hits for 62k and smite glyphed hits for 60k. Pain hits for 85 before hitting the 1st breakpoint and that is without raid buffed intellect. By comparison penance hits for 37k per tick, fully buffed.
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Why would you bring holy? Because holy can push bigger numbers than shamans and paladins:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ration_Shaman/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/.../Holy_Paladin/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...H/Holy_Priest/

Mana tide and blessings are a minor benefit. Also disc gets higher number on the logs for very specific reasons, throughput is not appreciably different. There is nothing disc can heal that holy can't and very few mechanics that are really appreciably easier with disc than with holy.

Sorry but your thinking is quite limited. In 10mans atonement gives disc too big an advantage, but in 25man holy can replace disc without your raid suffering any penalty. You can bring holy because the player who plays it, prefers it and he is good. That is all. Min maxing for 25mans does not require disc at all, for almost all fights the difference is that the priest won't look as great in the meters. Also a well played holy priest is 100000x better than a mediocre disc.

[Deleted]

No other healer has the strength that Disc has, either.

Exactly what are you refering to? Shields? Palas have as strong shields as disc on the ptr, while being better healers in every other area. Atonement? Monks. There won't be any fights thst require a disc in 5.2, but there will be fights that require your healers to compensate for significant aoe damage, which disc can't.

[HPLathus]

Actually I forgot that holy also has evangelism. Basically all dps spells hit for 50% more from holy, the only difference is penance, but with holy you can afford to stack haste and use shadow spells too, which offsets penance quite a lot. Holy fire in smite chakra hits for 62k and smite glyphed hits for 60k. Pain hits for 85 before hitting the 1st breakpoint and that is without raid buffed intellect. By comparison penance hits for 37k per tick, fully buffed.
===================================================
Why would you bring holy? Because holy can push bigger numbers than shamans and paladins:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ration_Shaman/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/.../Holy_Paladin/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...H/Holy_Priest/

Mana tide and blessings are a minor benefit. Also disc gets higher number on the logs for very specific reasons, throughput is not appreciably different. There is nothing disc can heal that holy can't and very few mechanics that are really appreciably easier with disc than with holy.

Sorry but your thinking is quite limited. In 10mans atonement gives disc too big an advantage, but in 25man holy can replace disc without your raid suffering any penalty. You can bring holy because the player who plays it, prefers it and he is good. That is all. Min maxing for 25mans does not require disc at all, for almost all fights the difference is that the priest won't look as great in the meters. Also a well played holy priest is 100000x better than a mediocre disc.

Thank you for this havoc.

I personally forget the capability holy has to do damage. Much higher then disc.

Yes the .5 healer makes a difference but at that point just bring a WW monk if you need it that badly.

[Miko]

Actually I forgot that holy also has evangelism. Basically all dps spells hit for 50% more from holy, the only difference is penance, but with holy you can afford to stack haste and use shadow spells too, which offsets penance quite a lot. Holy fire in smite chakra hits for 62k and smite glyphed hits for 60k. Pain hits for 85 before hitting the 1st breakpoint and that is without raid buffed intellect. By comparison penance hits for 37k per tick, fully buffed.
===================================================
Why would you bring holy? Because holy can push bigger numbers than shamans and paladins:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ration_Shaman/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/.../Holy_Paladin/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...H/Holy_Priest/

Mana tide and blessings are a minor benefit. Also disc gets higher number on the logs for very specific reasons, throughput is not appreciably different. There is nothing disc can heal that holy can't and very few mechanics that are really appreciably easier with disc than with holy.

Sorry but your thinking is quite limited. In 10mans atonement gives disc too big an advantage, but in 25man holy can replace disc without your raid suffering any penalty. You can bring holy because the player who plays it, prefers it and he is good. That is all. Min maxing for 25mans does not require disc at all, for almost all fights the difference is that the priest won't look as great in the meters. Also a well played holy priest is 100000x better than a mediocre disc.

Just looked at the logs. Disc is raping 99% of everything hc 25.

[Isheria]

Just looked at the logs. Disc is raping 99% of everything hc 25.

What's your point? To prove disc is overpowered and it gets nerfed to bring some balance? Well everybody knows that, what happens/happened in 5.0/5.1 is irrelevant anymore though with 5.2 being around the corner. Disc won't be top for everything anymore and that's pretty much about it.

[HPLathus]

The ONLY reason other healers are lower on representation is because disc reduces the amount of healing they are able to do.

Not to say disc wasn't good, but understanding WoL this tier from a healing perspective means understanding that healers are only lower because of not being able to heal to their full potential because of disc.

[Mazi]

Not to mention that skews logs too.. raids with 1-3 Disc will make everyone else lower for each Disc. A lot of my high Holy parses were due to no Disc.. but I do smile when I put up nearly the same numbers in the same raid as Disc :P

[Miko]

The ONLY reason other healers are lower on representation is because disc reduces the amount of healing they are able to do.

Not to say disc wasn't good, but understanding WoL this tier from a healing perspective means understanding that healers are only lower because of not being able to heal to their full potential because of disc.

What you seem to don't understand is that is the very reason WHY disc is stronger. To reduce dmg b4 someone even gets a chance to heal it will always be over powered. Holy can't touch that never will. Same reason why hpallys heals are strong. You can always get a class to bring raid heals and burst raw healing, but when you bring a disc you notice what they do if they are good. I don't know how they will be in 5.2, but I do know is that they don't need to be as strong as they are now. When it comes to power of healing a disc out preforms a holy period. I don't know why its even a discussion. If you like holy play it, but it isn't better currently.

[HPLathus]

Healing was never meant to be that way, disc has been broken since 5.1.. while maybe it made things easier. It only made other healers look bad, even though they AREN'T


It's hard to balance the other classes when disc was almost nerfing boss fights to nothing. Just because disc was strong, doesn't mean its a good mechanics and should be played that way.


You can't say disc is out performed by holy, at all. Because disc can never put out the raw actual healing that holy can, and while holy can never do the absorbs disc can. They are seperate mechanics that really cannot be compared on the same level.

[Abysal]

Healing was never meant to be that way, disc has been broken since 5.1.. while maybe it made things easier. It only made other healers look bad, even though they AREN'T


It's hard to balance the other classes when disc was almost nerfing boss fights to nothing. Just because disc was strong, doesn't mean its a good mechanics and should be played that way.


You can't say disc is out performed by holy, at all. Because disc can never put out the raw actual healing that holy can, and while holy can never do the absorbs disc can. They are seperate mechanics that really cannot be compared on the same level.

Agreed. I think the time has come for Blizzard to make Disc's absorbs partial instead of full. For example, say PW:S absorbs 100k damage. Instead of absorbing a 100k hit, it instead absorbs 50% of incoming damage until the 100k has been absorbed. This will make it so traditional healers still have incoming damage to heal when there's an absorb up.

[Toxigen]

Why would you bring holy? Because holy can push bigger numbers than shamans and paladins:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ration_Shaman/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/.../Holy_Paladin/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...H/Holy_Priest/

Mana tide and blessings are a minor benefit.

Going to back up my Shaman here...

...did we forget SL totem? One of the strongest raid cooldowns out there...

[Miko]

Healing was never meant to be that way, disc has been broken since 5.1.. while maybe it made things easier. It only made other healers look bad, even though they AREN'T


It's hard to balance the other classes when disc was almost nerfing boss fights to nothing. Just because disc was strong, doesn't mean its a good mechanics and should be played that way.


You can't say disc is out performed by holy, at all. Because disc can never put out the raw actual healing that holy can, and while holy can never do the absorbs disc can. They are seperate mechanics that really cannot be compared on the same level.

Asorbs> Raw healing. They can't be compared on the same lvl because holy isn't on the same lvl as a disc priest. Maybe with these nerfs and adjustments it will be, but if numbers where the same as now in 5.2 you can forget it.

[jairash]

Mastery: Shield Discipline now increases the potency of all your damage absorption spells by 12.8%, down from 20%. Now also increases all of your healing by 6.4%.

Which spells are affected by the 12.8% part?

[ramennoodleking]

Asorbs> Raw healing. They can't be compared on the same lvl because holy isn't on the same lvl as a disc priest. Maybe with these nerfs and adjustments it will be, but if numbers where the same as now in 5.2 you can forget it.

Abosrbs don't matter when HP is already dangerously low, or with debuffs requiring %s of health, or when damage is unpredictable.

Discs biggest strength is also it's biggest weakness. They simply cannot put out the raw healing other calsses can, and only look good due to their absorbs. Remove the predictable damage waves and disc isn't so hot anymore.

[HPLathus]

Abosrbs don't matter when HP is already dangerously low, or with debuffs requiring %s of health, or when damage is unpredictable.

Discs biggest strength is also it's biggest weakness. They simply cannot put out the raw healing other calsses can, and only look good due to their absorbs. Remove the predictable damage waves and disc isn't so hot anymore.

Stole the words from my mouth.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 05:18 PM ----------

Mastery: Shield Discipline now increases the potency of all your damage absorption spells by 12.8%, down from 20%. Now also increases all of your healing by 6.4%.

Which spells are affected by the 12.8% part?

Everything thats an absorb shield EXCEPT spirit shell