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  1. #241
    if you judge complexity based on the number of short cd spells a spec has to chose from disc would be higher up than holy.

    You can't...... honestly in a sane mind think on ANY level disc has a harder time managing cooldowns then holy does. Like this statement just... facepalm..

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 05:57 PM ----------

    As said, I played both speccs and I never felt the need to call holy "brainless" like a lot of holy priests do when they talk about disc
    Don't get me wrong, I am not saying disc is "brainless" by any means. However, holding the difficulty of disc next to holy, holy surpasses in terms of difficulty by quite a large margin.


    You absolutley cannot be "unskilled" as a disc priest, you have to know the spec extremley well to play it right.


    BUT... I think disc could be learned far faster then playing a holy priest would.

  2. #242
    Deleted
    You have given absolutely no response to my statement that the skillcap is just as high, all your responses are saying is that if you fuck up completely holy gets punished more than disc, that's irrelevant for a good player and for the skillcap.

    I am saying, holy has much more to worry about then disc. Yes, holy is harder then disc, and I know a lot of holy priests who will 100% agree with me. People don't play disc right now because its hard and a lot of fun, they play it because it's easy to carry raids through mechanics that might otherwise wipe them.
    I find disc maximizing disc more challenging than holy due to the much heavier emphasis on planning. I find disc waaaay more fun than holy, mainly due to the fact that I have to plan ahead more and due to the chakra mechanic being bloody annoying.


    And there you go, bashing on people again. Grats on watching me as disc, maybe you could learn something from that as well.
    Yes, and you deserve said bashing if you say that disc is easier than holy despite being unable to play the spec at even 10% of it's potential. If you can't manage to play the spec at a relatively high level despite trying I don't think you have any place speaking about the skill required.

  3. #243
    Deleted
    People don't play disc right now because its hard and a lot of fun, they play it because it's easy to carry raids through mechanics that might otherwise wipe them.
    How do you know? Just because some holy priests/other classes jumped the boat to disc when it got OP? Those are not disc priests, those are fotm players.

    I play disc for 3 expansions, and I played it in the start of cata and I played it pretty much any time its been at least close to holy. I will play it in 5.2 as well as much as its possible without gimping my raid - and you will not hear me complaining that I have to play holy. And I play it because, for me, it is fun. I dont give a shit about being hard, there is nothing especially hard about pushing some buttons in a video game. I do harder things irl, I'm sure it's not a limited intellect that keeps me from playing holy. And I find it insulting when somebody puts me in the same box with all the fotm re-rollers. So what should I do, stop playing or reroll when my specc is OP?

    But you dont get this. You dont get the fact that some ppl just dont like holy. Not because it's too hard, but because it is an extremely passive style that makes my brain feel like a dragging snail. It's slow. You find it fun to count drops on your mana bar, I dont. I find it fun to spend as much of it without getting into trouble. I like the fact that I can actively do something about my mana, and being better at that gives me more mana to spend, instead of just piling spirit on my gear and counting my spells. You think that just because disc got a truckload of buffs, all the ppl playing it are just freeloaders that do it because it's a free IWIN button. Noway could a normally skilled person just choose to play disc out of their free will.

    You can't...... honestly in a sane mind think on ANY level disc has a harder time managing cooldowns then holy does. Like this statement just... facepalm..
    Holy cds:
    - lightwell - 3 mins
    - DH - 3 mins
    - GS - 3 mins
    - chakra- 30 seconds
    - coh - 6/8 seconds
    - holy words
    - serendipity - not a cd, but it has a duration to track, needs 2 casts to max. When you got it, you use it, because if you dont, you'll just waste it, and there is no loss in using it.

    Disc cds:
    - holy fire - 10 seconds
    - evangelism - not a cd, but same as serendipity, its a duration to track. Needs 5 casts. Using it to only continue smiting or not casting heals for the duration of archangel is a loss
    - penance - 10 sec cd
    - rapture 12 seconds. WS - 15 seconds, grace-15 seconds, aegis- 15 seconds, pws - 15 seconds.
    - archangel - 30 seconds cd
    - spirit shell 1 min cd
    - barrier- 3 mins cd
    - PS- 3 mins cd

    Evidently I didn't list common cds like cascade and pom, which both speccs have. You count how much cds each specc has to manage.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not saying disc is "brainless" by any means. However, holding the difficulty of disc next to holy, holy surpasses in terms of difficulty by quite a large margin.
    BUT... I think disc could be learned far faster then playing a holy priest would.
    That is your personal opinion. Just because the specc is overbuffed right now and a lot of windowlickers do fine with it by spamming one button doesn't mean the specc is easy. It's just broken by stupid buffs. I had to re-learn to play disc every expansion so far, it felt like a new class every time. Holy didn't change that much really.
    How hard is it to just say they are different and not judge one to be "easier" than other? why the need to say yours is harder? does it make you feel smarter or why?

    You absolutley cannot be "unskilled" as a disc priest, you have to know the spec extremley well to play it right.
    I think you meant "holy priest" there, or your statements dont make sense.
    Last edited by mmoc318f6f4933; 2013-02-22 at 06:30 PM.

  4. #244
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    Idd there are, and I know quite a few of them that dont feel the need to roll their eyes and call other classes/speccs easy or brainless. Training your raid to use lightwell is quite a thing of the past since most just glyph it nowadays, and even un-glyphed, it still makes no difference how skilled the holy priest is, but how much their raid cares. So what exactly makes "training your raid to use lightwell" a skill thing? They either use it or not, but you have no saying in it. I'm sorry, but out of all things, calling out that one that gives you 10% of your healing basically passive (with one gcd and a spoonful of mana) is a bit hard to see as "skillbased".

    As said, I played both speccs and I never felt the need to call holy "brainless" like a lot of holy priests do when they talk about disc. I prefer disc because for me, holy is boring, but that doesn't mean others cant find it interesting.

    But thank you for confirming my take on the majority of holy priests. I expressed a general opinion, not directed at anybody in particular, and you took it personally and came to the conclusion that I am a tool for expressing my own views without insulting anybody in particular. So if I say that in my opinion, none of the speccs felt particularly harder, I am a tool, but when you and others say that disc is brainless, it's an entirely different matter? Why, what makes your opinion better than mine?
    If you read my post you would see I was being sensible and reasonable, nor did I ever bash disc. Mana conservation is harder as holy. This is a fact. And glyphing lightspring is no where near as beneficial as instead using Lightwell and using it as a raid cooldown. I was merely mentioning that it is more difficult to get this "10%" healing because it requires the priest to be vocal, spatially aware, and forward thinking. No other class has to rely on others for this "10%" healing, which is also a fact. And lightspring is not nearly as good as Lightwell.

    So where in that was I being opinionated or "special snowflake"-ish about holy? Nowhere. Holy mana is worse than disc, Lightwell is dependent on 9/24 others. Both are facts.

    Again, your comments are unnecessary and aggressive, you should probably take a minute to calm down.
    Last edited by ramennoodleking; 2013-02-22 at 06:33 PM.

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  5. #245
    Deleted
    So where in that was I being opinionated or "special snowflake"-ish? Nowhere. Holy mana is worse than disc, Lightwell is dependent on 9/24 others. Both are facts.
    If you gear according to the spec and playstyle you have no mana to spare as either spec. Using the same amount of mana for disc as you do for holy is just stupid. Lightwell being dependant on others is completely irrelevant for your skillcap. Having to rely on other players doesn't make the spec harder, if anything it takes responsibility away from you.

  6. #246
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    So where in that was I being opinionated or "special snowflake"-ish about holy? Nowhere. Holy mana is worse than disc, Lightwell is dependent on 9/24 others. Both are facts.

    Again, your comments are unnecessary and aggressive, you should probably take a minute to calm down.
    Where have I called you personally a special snowflake?
    Where have I said that disc mana is worse than holy one? And since when the difficulty in a specc/class resides in one single aspect?
    If Lightwell is dependent on others to use it, what is your input in it? What extra work does a holy priest have to do for ppl to use it? Yell on vent? Is that a reason why holy is harder than disc?

    And last time I checked, this was a free forum, and if you don't like my comments, you are free to ignore them. But be at peace, my lunch break is over and I'm going back to work. Have a nice day.

  7. #247
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    If you gear according to the spec and playstyle you have no mana to spare as either spec. Using the same amount of mana for disc as you do for holy is just stupid. Lightwell being dependant on others is completely irrelevant for your skillcap. Having to rely on other players doesn't make the spec harder, if anything it takes responsibility away from you.
    I'm sorry, but being able to gear out of spirit doesn't put the two on the same level. Straw man argument at best. It does not change the fact that holy mana is tighter than discs. And if disc is allowed to allocate more stats into hpm/throughput secondaries while holy cannot, it widens the gap of healing discrepancy.

    And I don't care what anyone believes about Lightwell, but the hardest thing to do as a holy priest has been to get Lightwell charges to be used properly and fully. This is the very REASON people clamored for a ToC-esque lightspring, and lo an behold they got it for the very reason that putting healing in the hands of dps does not mean you will get the healing done when you feel you need it.

    Lightwell is a burden because we, as holy, are balanced with this output in mind. If dps choose not to click it, or click it at terrible times, you personally suffer. Therefore it is harder to train your raid when to use it and requires you to be vocal over vent when you want people I click. Call it too early and the HoT gets removed because people took much damage. You may not understand it, but optimal Lightwell use takes a lot of effort by the priest. And lightspring doesn't hold a candle to the potential of Lightwell.

    Your arguments fall flat.

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  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    How do you know? Just because some holy priests/other classes jumped the boat to disc when it got OP? Those are not disc priests, those are fotm players.

    I play disc for 3 expansions, and I played it in the start of cata and I played it pretty much any time its been at least close to holy. I will play it in 5.2 as well as much as its possible without gimping my raid - and you will not hear me complaining that I have to play holy. And I play it because, for me, it is fun. I dont give a shit about being hard, there is nothing especially hard about pushing some buttons in a video game. I do harder things irl, I'm sure it's not a limited intellect that keeps me from playing holy. And I find it insulting when somebody puts me in the same box with all the fotm re-rollers. So what should I do, stop playing or reroll when my specc is OP?

    But you dont get this. You dont get the fact that some ppl just dont like holy. Not because it's too hard, but because it is an extremely passive style that makes my brain feel like a dragging snail. It's slow. You find it fun to count drops on your mana bar, I dont. I find it fun to spend as much of it without getting into trouble. I like the fact that I can actively do something about my mana, and being better at that gives me more mana to spend, instead of just piling spirit on my gear and counting my spells. You think that just because disc got a truckload of buffs, all the ppl playing it are just freeloaders that do it because it's a free IWIN button. Noway could a normally skilled person just choose to play disc out of their free will.


    Holy cds:
    - lightwell - 3 mins
    - DH - 3 mins
    - GS - 3 mins
    - chakra- 30 seconds
    - coh - 6/8 seconds
    - holy words
    - serendipity - not a cd, but it has a duration to track, needs 2 casts to max. When you got it, you use it, because if you dont, you'll just waste it, and there is no loss in using it.

    Disc cds:
    - holy fire - 10 seconds
    - evangelism - not a cd, but same as serendipity, its a duration to track. Needs 5 casts. Using it to only continue smiting or not casting heals for the duration of archangel is a loss
    - penance - 10 sec cd
    - rapture 12 seconds. WS - 15 seconds, grace-15 seconds, aegis- 15 seconds, pws - 15 seconds.
    - archangel - 30 seconds cd
    - spirit shell 1 min cd
    - barrier- 3 mins cd
    - PS- 3 mins cd

    Evidently I didn't list common cds like cascade and pom, which both speccs have. You count how much cds each specc has to manage.



    That is your personal opinion. Just because the specc is overbuffed right now and a lot of windowlickers do fine with it by spamming one button doesn't mean the specc is easy. It's just broken by stupid buffs. I had to re-learn to play disc every expansion so far, it felt like a new class every time. Holy didn't change that much really.
    How hard is it to just say they are different and not judge one to be "easier" than other? why the need to say yours is harder? does it make you feel smarter or why?



    I think you meant "holy priest" there, or your statements dont make sense.
    You forgot Pom and divine insight procs. As well as leaving out the fact you have to weave all those spells between other casts.


    Also, my last statement you quoted. I was crediting disc at requiring skill, just got as much as holy.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 06:43 PM ----------

    You don't track evegalism, it happens. All you disc priests preach how much you should be using atonement so you can't count evegalism as a cooldown.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 06:44 PM ----------

    From the sounds of it, I take it you haven't even attempted using holy in this xpac outside of tsulong

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 06:51 PM ----------

    Cookie, you really are a sad person.


    You talk more trash on this forum then anyone, yet can NEVER back it up. When someone asks you to back yourself up, you make up an excuse as to why you cannot.

    Yet you sit here day in day out saying what a god player you are and how everyone is under you.


    You try to comment on holy, you don't even play the spec and have said so on miltiple occasions.




    I'm not going to entertain your childish antics anymore because in my eyes you know nothing of how to play a holy priest and listening to you talk about it says enough.


    Not once, did I say disc sucks or disc is not as good as holy.

    Any holy priest that also plays disc will say its 5x harder to learn holy as it is disc.


    You said that if holy fucks up ur done, not 100% true. But yes it's less forgiving as disc.


    You eff up as disc and its a "oh well no big deal". You can't tell me disc is unforgiving...
    Last edited by HPLathus; 2013-02-22 at 06:54 PM.

  9. #249
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    Where have I called you personally a special snowflake?
    Herer you go:

    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    But thank you for confirming my take on the majority of holy priests
    I confirmed your opinion that holy priests who believe that some aspects of holy are harder are special snowflakes, apparently, so you must feel that towards me.

    I expressed a general opinion, not directed at anybody in particular, and you took it personally and came to the conclusion that I am a tool for expressing my own views without insulting anybody in particular.
    You stated an opinion that was obviously directed at those who were saying aspects of holy were harder than disc. You even quoted them and me to refute them. Also, see below:

    So if I say that in my opinion, none of the speccs felt particularly harder, I am a tool, but when you and others say that disc is brainless, it's an entirely different matter? Why, what makes your opinion better than mine?
    Ah, so you weren't making a general statement but instead referring to people like me, right? Even though I admit that the only differences are mana and lightwell?

    Where have I said that disc mana is worse than holy one?
    You didn't, nor did I acuse you. But you acted like there were no major differences, and this was one that I wanted to calmly and reasonably point out.

    And since when the difficulty in a specc/class resides in one single aspect?
    Alot. Multidotting is harder than, say pressing cleave and whirlwind, or one button Aoe. Old Arcane also says hello.

    Lightwell is dependent on others to use it, what is your input in it? What extra work does a holy priest have to do for ppl to use it? Yell on vent? Is that a reason why holy is harder than disc?
    It's not just taking a leader's roll and calling it out in vent. It's also knowing the fight in and out, lining up all raid CDs, not just healer, to get optimal performance for progression raiding. You shouldn't use lightwell with, for example, Tranq. You need to plan all this out, map it out in your head, then make sure every raider gets it. The sad thing is, you cant force anyone to click the damn thing. That's why Divine Hymn is nice, and so is PW:B. Don't have to worry about anyone.

    And last time I checked, this was a free forum, and if you don't like my comments, you are free to ignore them. But be at peace, my lunch break is over and I'm going back to work. Have a nice day.
    You are correct. But I also reserve the right to respond to you when you send out sweeping generalities about people as "special snowflakes." Enjoy your day.

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  10. #250
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by HolyLathusDisc View Post
    You forgot Pom and divine insight procs. As well as leaving out the fact you have to weave all those spells between other casts.
    I didnt forget pom, I explained at the end its a common cd to both speccs
    I didn't put DI in that, because its a talent, and disc has it too. If disc was using it, it would also need to track those procs. Most of us dont use it, but have power infusion instead, which you might notice I didnt list as another cd - for the reason that it is a talent available to both speccs.

    Also, my last statement you quoted. I was crediting disc at requiring skill, just got as much as holy.
    Thank you for the bone. You dont seem to realize how patronizing that statement sounds.

    You don't track evegalism, it happens. All you disc priests preach how much you should be using atonement so you can't count evegalism as a cooldown.
    Evangelism doesn't happen any more than your serendipity "happens". You need to cast for it. It's a choice to cast the spells that stack it.

    From the sounds of it, I take it you haven't even attempted using holy in this xpac outside of tsulong
    I progressed in mogushan in october part holy, part disc, but mostly holy due to the fact that as disc I was just gimping my raid, and I dont give a flying toss about those that claim "disc was still good" when they weren't playing it. I was bottom of the meters as disc, after being my main specc for ages. I was topping them as holy, as an offspecc. We weren't wiping to lack of absorbs. Logical choice. I didn't hop to a monk, I played my priest, so no, it wasn't a case of playing the OP specc, since holy was hardly OP, it was just less bad than disc.

    My first 2-3 kills on tsulong have been as holy because of obvious mechanic advantages. All the rest have been as disc, because it was never a hard boss on normal, and I didn't get to do the hc. I'll go holy for it on hc to buff the other healers, otherwise, I'm cool with the 140k hps I did on it as disc.

    And now, I should really leave forums and get back to work .

    edit: @ramennoodleking

    I made some general statements, you seemed to take them personal and lashed on me for being a tool. Nothing before that was directed to you, but you seem to have included yourself in that group. Evidently that when you go personal on me, I reply personal to you, but I didn't provoke you. This "who's more of a tool than the other" discussion is a bit silly so lets just drop it? I'm fairly sure none of us is a tool.

    I don't mind playing holy sometimes, it's just not something I would enjoy on a long term. I am usually disc/holy and I never had a problem switching for what was more beneficial. They are 2 different speccs and have different problems, it is unfair to assume that one specc's problems are bigger than the other's. There is no need to call down any of those speccs.

    Multidotting is not one aspect. Those speccs/classes are different from more than one reason.
    I have been a raid leader in the past, and I still deal with tactics and log digging nowadays in a 25 man guild as an officer. It requires me to be aware of more aspects than just healing in an encounter. It's funny that you mention that you need to know the fight inside out: of all the healers out there, if there is one that suffers massively from not knowing the encounter, that is disc. When shit hits the fan, you can pop that DH and do both decent numbers and triage at the same time, since its a smart raid cd. I cant drag ppl under my barrier, i have to have some spatial awareness for it as well. I dont have the luxury of any smart aoe spell, my only smart spell is a single target one. Meanwhile, that lightspring does some more triage for you, since its also smart. And same for PoM/DI combo, which is brilliant - another smart heal. And to top the cake - coh. You have multiple ways to do significant aoe healing in vulnerable points. I have to either predict it (and shield it), or dumb heal it with poh. Yes, holy has a lot less mana than disc. It's also a lot more efficient than disc, at least in the aoe dept - which is the majority of the content. All disc has is bruteforce by poh. The fact that its doing ludicrous numbers atm doesn't mean its a great mechanic, it just means they gave us a huge hammer to cover killing anything from moskitos to elephants and called it a day. It's going to be painfully visible the next patch.

    And you have every right to reply, in whatever manner it suits you. However, sometimes the picture is a bit clearer if you're not involved personally.
    Last edited by mmoc318f6f4933; 2013-02-22 at 07:29 PM.

  11. #251
    Deleted
    You don't track evegalism, it happens. All you disc priests preach how much you should be using atonement so you can't count evegalism as a cooldown.
    In an aoe heavy situation you do.

    You talk more trash on this forum then anyone, yet can NEVER back it up. When someone asks you to back yourself up, you make up an excuse as to why you cannot.


    Yet you sit here day in day out saying what a god player you are and how everyone is under you.
    Back it up, what are you on about? I give reasoning behind all my statements, unlike you who go on like a broken record about your opinion like it's fucking sacred.

    No, there are many players that I respect and who are better than me, but you aren't one of them.

    You try to comment on holy, you don't even play the spec and have said so on miltiple occasions.
    I've played the spec a few times (on Tsulong mainly) and I've played holy dps a fair bit (which did mean that I had to swap to dedicated healing in some situations, and with 1/3 of the regen you are talking so much about). How about I don't comment about holys skillcap and you don't comment about discs, since from your play it's apparent that you no clue about it, fair enough? Admittedly I think that I'm a better holy priest than you despite having very little experience with the spec, but I guess I might be biased. I do think that disc has a theoretical skillcap that's higher than holys (even if neither is reachable) but I have avoided shouting that since I simply don't have as deep of an insight regarding holy.

    Any holy priest that also plays disc will say its 5x harder to learn holy as it is disc.
    and I'm a disc priest who also plays holy, and I say that that's completely incorrect, though luck but despite your massive bias your opinion isn't worth more than mine (if anything, it's worth less).

    I'm sorry, but being able to gear out of spirit doesn't put the two on the same level. Straw man argument at best. It does not change the fact that holy mana is tighter than discs. And if disc is allowed to allocate more stats into hpm/throughput secondaries while holy cannot, it widens the gap of healing discrepancy.
    Every healing spec should only gear spirit to a point where they are reasonably comfortable with regen and then go for throughput stas. If disc due to this can afford to put more stats into throughput that's a balance issue, even if disc could heal more (which it can't, raw hps wise, even with the additional stats) that wouldn't have any impact on the skillcap. This isn't a straw man argument, it's been the gearing principle for most solid healers for a very long time.

    Lightwell is a burden because we, as holy, are balanced with this output in mind. If dps choose not to click it, or click it at terrible times, you personally suffer. Therefore it is harder to train your raid when to use it and requires you to be vocal over vent when you want people I click. Call it too early and the HoT gets removed because people took much damage. You may not understand it, but optimal Lightwell use takes a lot of effort by the priest. And lightspring doesn't hold a candle to the potential of Lightwell.
    Again, if people aren't using lightspring and the class is designed around it it's a balance/design issue. Pushing more responsibility on the dps/screaming higher on vent doesn't have anything to do with skill. Should I claim that disc is harder because I have to tell people to stand inside the barrier? You chosing to tell the other players what to do doesn't make your spec more difficult.
    Last edited by mmoc321e539296; 2013-02-22 at 07:15 PM.

  12. #252
    Playing holy on one fight... Guess that means you know the spec.


    And in terms of your trash talking, bringing in. " I've seen u play". "I've seen ur logs". And then say things like how your hoc WoTE kill was faster, you had more rapture procs. Ect

    You say things like that almost every other post.


    Then say, because you played holy on tailing, you know the spec and can comment on how complex it isn't.


    Sorry to burst your bubble, playing holy is nothing like playing it on fights where people would normally be disc.


    Since you started posting here, I have yet to see you back up these So called godly logs you claim to be in, no armory, no wow progress.


    Funny how you comment on everyone else's play style but hide your own. What do you have to hide? The fact that back up what you preach?

    Until I see some sort of evidence you are a competent healer. I will not respect your opinion.



    If you ask me, you are just a treasure troll.

  13. #253
    Have to say I agree with Cookie here. As someone who has played both specs quite a bit (I was holy through most of Cata and the beginning of MoP), I don't buy for a second that holy is more difficult/complicated than disc. Disc is overpowered right now, so it might appear that it's easier, but timing your absorbs is crucial to getting that output. The only way I find disc to be easier is in terms of mana management, and as disc you can still fuck that up if you're bad about rapture. I've always felt that Holy could use something more like 60-70% in combat regen, but it really isn't crippled without it.

    Anyway, back to the original point. Both specs have a pretty mindless smart heal- disc has atonement, holy has CoH. Both rely pretty heavily on PoH, at least for now. Tracking divine insight as holy isn't particularly challenging, your PoM button lights up all nice and shiny and you use the spell as you otherwise would. Both of Holy's raid cds boil down to clicking a button and letting it go. Sure, Lightwell not glyphed to lightspring involves letting your raid know to use it, and being more careful about it's positioning. But I did that all through Cata, and would never say it came down to being difficult to do.

    The specs are about equal in terms of skill difficulty. Disc is just more rewarding at the moment for the same amount of effort.

  14. #254
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    But it does take more skill when you plan the fights out, work with your raid leader on cooldown rotations, actually get people to use it, and place it properly. Maybe "heal leader" isn't baked into the holy spec description, but you essentially have to take that stance by the balls in order to get lightwell to function properly. Is it harder to do than other healing specs? Absolutely.

    But even if it is a "balance/design" issue, isn't that the crux of this debate to begin with? Of course it is. But as is, we are designed with Lightwell in mind, so there is added complexity because of this.

    And cry me a river on PW:B. Most times it's use the raid is already stacked, and even if not just casting it on the tank will get at the very least the two tanks, the melee, and the casting priest.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
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  15. #255
    Deleted
    Playing holy on one fight... Guess that means you know the spec.
    Plays disc without making proper use of any tool in the arsenal.... Guess that means you know the spec.

    And in terms of your trash talking, bringing in. " I've seen u play". "I've seen ur logs". And then say things like how your hoc WoTE kill was faster, you had more rapture procs. Ect

    You say things like that almost every other post.

    Then say, because you played holy on tailing, you know the spec and can comment on how complex it isn't.

    Sorry to burst your bubble, playing holy is nothing like playing it on fights where people would normally be disc.

    Since you started posting here, I have yet to see you back up these So called godly logs you claim to be in, no armory, no wow progress.

    Funny how you comment on everyone else's play style but hide your own. What do you have to hide? The fact that back up what you preach?

    Until I see some sort of evidence you are a competent healer. I will not respect your opinion.
    I normally don't feel a need to use mine/someone elses progress in favor/against arguments, I simply let my reasoning speak for itself (I have tremendous respect for some players who haven't even downed 16/16 norm this tier). But when I repeatedly see someone talking down people purely based on their progress, despite not having a solid progress nor performance himself I simply can't resist sticking it to him (in this case, you). That's why I'm bringing up your logs and your play, you can check my posting history and I'd never do that with a player who didn't start by using that as an argument.

    I don't even need to compare you to myself, go compare your logs to any priest in a solid guild and you will see large differences (in, among other things, rapture procs). A 9:30 wote hc kill isn't special or strange (especially this far into the exp), the speed of that fight is mainly based on your line-up, strategy and obviously gear, our progresskill was far from 9 minutes. I didn't mention it to brag (it was you who jumped to this conclusion), I mentioned it since it's relevant in determining how many rapture procs you should get during the fight which is what I was discussing at that point.

    Trust me when I say that I couldn't care less about your respect and what you think of me. However if you only respect players who are better than you should probably just respect every player you encounter initially, it's quite few that you won't end up worshipping anyways:P.


    But it does take more skill when you plan the fights out, work with your raid leader on cooldown rotations, actually get people to use it, and place it properly. Maybe "heal leader" isn't baked into the holy spec description, but you essentially have to take that stance by the balls in order to get lightwell to function properly. Is it harder to do than other healing specs? Absolutely.

    But even if it is a "balance/design" issue, isn't that the crux of this debate to begin with? Of course it is. But as is, we are designed with Lightwell in mind, so there is added complexity because of this.
    There's no need for you to be a heal leader/raidleader to make people use the spells. I'm sure as hell telling people about our monks healing orbs despite him staying quiet for most of the raid. Using the tools that they gain access to from the raid is the players job, and the raidleaders job is to remind them of this. Warlock portals doesn't increase the skillcap for a warlock either, I would say that it usually results in way more work for the raidleader though. Yes having a lightwell does increase the work and skill/awareness required for the healing/raidleader, which never necessarily has to be you.

    And cry me a river on PW:B. Most times it's use the raid is already stacked, and even if not just casting it on the tank will get at the very least the two tanks, the melee, and the casting priest.
    and how is that close to the potential or "skillcap" of the spell? Getting 4 players in it is a larger reduction of it's potential than using lightspring over lightwell.
    Last edited by mmoc321e539296; 2013-02-22 at 07:44 PM.

  16. #256
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    What are you even trying to argue for here? Just for the sake of arguing? It is literally not debatable that lightwell is difficult to achieve optimal healing output. People have to find it and click it. It's almost like asking the dps to cast flash heal for you. Only they can't keybind it. Or macro it. They have to find it, move their mouse, and click it.

    They have to know where it's at. They have to know WHEN to use it. They have to be within range to use it. It all hinges so much on how well the healer coordinates with the raid and raid leader. PW:B is not even on the same level as Lightwell.

    I don't even understand why you are arguing here. It's like I personally attacked you or something and you are out for blood. I said two things: holy mana is tighter (true statement) and then added later that lightwell is another layer of complexity no other healer deals with (true statement).

    But I also added that other than that, Disc and Holy are on the same level in terms of toolkit and potential skillcap. Even if 5.1 has powered disc well enough to play mediocre and look better than average.

    Just drop the issue. There's nothing to ague here.
    Last edited by ramennoodleking; 2013-02-22 at 07:56 PM.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
    Tactical Disaster - Stormrage-US
    16/16 Heroic T14
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  17. #257
    Who the hell other then you brings people down for progression? I certainly do not.

    Again, just another excuse to not provide proof.

    Please explain how I don't use any tool properly, you seem to say rapture a lot. Ohhh big whoop.

    I purpous key don't regem out of spirit as disc 1) because I mostly play holy. 2) I don't care wasting a global cooldown for regen when I could be doing other things it's a play style choice.

    And don't sit here telling me you brought up your WoTE kill talking about only rapture. You brought it up in comparison to mine to try and hit me down. Which failed.
    I don't have solid progress?


    Taking down 16 bosses in a month 9 of which were heroic and two weeks. With a guild formed a month after the xpac release.

    Hardly solid right? You continue to spew out trolls and somehow think you can be respected by saying.

    "I play holy for some fights, mainly tsulong"

    Then say you know how to play holy simply because of one fight. OK

    You are the ONLY person on this forum I disrespect because you purpous lay troll then go"oh no I wasn't trolling two posts later to avoid getting banned"

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 07:56 PM ----------

    So who is taking who down for progression. You most certainly just did.

  18. #258
    Deleted
    @ramen. Yes I'm surely not posting about this to gain some amazing insight or to actually convince someone (fat chance). I simply find it entertaining to argue, if you don't I have a hard time seeing why you even are posting about this subject.

    2) I don't care wasting a global cooldown for regen when I could be doing other things it's a play style choice.
    Excluding that PW:S is an excellent output spell (when you don't have to pay the massive mana cost, aka when rapture is up) and that the output you lose by using 3k more spirit yet having the same regen is massive, especially compared to the trade off (which is that you have use a spell which already is great more often). It'd also a playstyle choice to simply never change chakra stance (and that would probably end up being more viable) or to never use pom. The fact that it's a playstyle choice doesn't make it good.

    And don't sit here telling me you brought up your WoTE kill talking about only rapture. You brought it up in comparison to mine to try and hit me down. Which failed.
    No I brought it up mainly to talk about rapture, admittedly I also threw a shot at you while at it (since I was discussing your rapture usage). I don't even see how the kill timer has any relevance if I was trying to talk you down, it's hardly the healers responsibility to get the boss down in a timely manner.

    don't have solid progress?
    Your guild has worse progress than pugs on my server, you aren't even close to getting the content for this patch down before the next one hits (after 11/16 hc things get significantly more challenging), no I don't consider this solid progress. Admittedly I haven't finished the tier myself, so I can't really brag about my progress either, in my eyes anyone with solid progress already killed sha hc.

    You are the ONLY person on this forum I disrespect because you purpous lay troll then go"oh no I wasn't trolling two posts later to avoid getting banned"
    My purpose for posting is generally to entertain myself, and arguing with someone is something I find entertaining, purely insulting/trolling usually isn't (though getting a lenghty and upset response from you is admittedly quite hilarious). Nor am I actively trying to avoid getting banned (please tell me how I'm doing this, I'm genuinly curious), my posts are simply not breaking any rules (even if I do cut it close from time to time).

    "I play holy for some fights, mainly tsulong"

    Then say you know how to play holy simply because of one fight. OK
    As stated I've also had to emergency heal as it a few times. I never claimed to be excellent at holy, but I do claim that I'm just as or more proficent as holy than you are as disc.

    So who is taking who down for progression. You most certainly just did.
    As stated I do mention it if someone is asking for it as badly as you, otherwise no, I don't.

  19. #259
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Because you are arguing against a brick wall of logic. Holy mana is worse than disc. Lightwell is the hardest healing cooldown to achieve optimal use from, unlike any other.

    You are arguing to hear yourself speak. Or read what you write. Or [insert appropriate metaphor].

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
    Tactical Disaster - Stormrage-US
    16/16 Heroic T14
    10/13 Heroic T15

  20. #260
    Deleted
    Lightwell is the hardest healing cooldown to achieve optimal use from, unlike any other.
    Then why do you use it glyphed on your ranked fights? Seems to me it worked out just fine without that whole "train your dps to look for the shitty lightwell" thing. I'm sorry, the whole debate got me curious.

    I went to WoL and looked for a big aoe fest and chose Garalon. Last time I checked, you could use LW while stunned, so thought an unglyphed one would be amazing. I picked the top holy priest there (one that I could actually understand the names of his spells) and ...he had it glyphed too.

    So, where are you using LW unglyphed?

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