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  1. #261
    Because you are arguing against a brick wall of logic. Holy mana is worse than disc. Lightwell is the hardest healing cooldown to achieve optimal use from, unlike any other.

    You are arguing to hear yourself speak. Or read what you write. Or [insert appropriate metaphor].
    That's called your opinion (and a logical fallacy), not logic:P. I agree that lightwell is harder to get optimal use of from the raid than barrier, but apart from placement it's not a responsibility that the priest is forced to shoulder, I also doubt that holy is designed/balanced around the raid making perfect usage of the lightwell (more likely around lightspring). That you gear for as much mana as you need to do your job, and not beyond that, is completely standard and a widely accepted premiss as a healer. The net result of a spec having less regen is (unless it's a difference that can't be compensated by gearing, and in this case it isn't, at least in 10 man) a difference in how much output you can gear for.

  2. #262
    Your guild has worse progress than pugs on my server, you aren't even close to getting the content for this patch down before the next one hits (after 11/16 hc things get significantly more challenging), no I don't consider this solid progress. Admittedly I haven't finished the tier myself, so I can't really brag about my progress either, in my eyes anyone with solid progress already killed sha hc.
    Interesting that you say you don't talk people down because of progression. Pretty sure you do ALL THE TIME and here is proof.

    I said earlier, we formed a month after other guilds. Brand new guild, mostly IRL friends.

    Our normal mode stone guard kill was US 8909...


    Our Imperial HEROIC kill.. was 603


    We also killed harder bosses first, to prove that we were competent enough to compete despite our late start in the expansion. SO.. you can't say our progression sucks when it doesn't.

    If we had only targeted easy bosses before killing will/imperial... such as, garalon/windlord/amber shaper/blade lord. Then maybe I would see why you say that.


    But we killed the hard ones first to prove a point.



    Seems steady if you ask me, considering we had never raided together in our lives and 50% of the guild was new to wow. You are a hypocrite at it's finest cookie.


    No I brought it up mainly to talk about rapture, admittedly I also threw a shot at you while at it (since I was discussing your rapture usage). I don't even see how the kill timer has any relevance if I was trying to talk you down, it's hardly the healers responsibility to get the boss down in a timely manner.
    Thank you for proving my point, because you earlier said you in fact don't bring up things like this to take hits. More reason to not respect you.

    Excluding that PW:S is an excellent output spell (when you don't have to pay the massive mana cost, aka when rapture is up) and that the output you lose by using 3k more spirit yet having the same regen is massive, especially compared to the trade off (which is that you have use a spell which already is great more often). It'd also a playstyle choice to simply never change chakra stance (and that would probably end up being more viable) or to never use pom. The fact that it's a playstyle choice doesn't make it good.
    Never said it wasn't, however. On a fight like WoTE since you want to bring it up so badly to talk about rapture.


    Since you earlier said, how hard rapture is to proc on that fight. Would it not be better to have more spirit for said fight, since when rapture DID proc you would get more benefit from it on top of a higher natural regen to do other things such as, oh I don't know. Prayer of healing, PoM, Penance the tanks considering how hard the tanks get stomped between dances on that fight.

    Plus, PW:S on that fight is not exactly the most important thing you should be casting. So you really just contradicted yourself.As stated I've also had to emergency heal as it a few times. I never claimed to be excellent at holy, but I do claim that I'm just as or more proficient as holy than you are as disc.


    Again, claim. I could claim to be Obama, but no one will believe me unless I show up at their doorstep and log into MMO-champion in front of their eyes. You can't talk big talk, and not be able to back it up with proof.


    My purpose for posting is generally to entertain myself, and arguing with someone is something I find entertaining, purely insulting/trolling usually isn't (though getting a lenghty and upset response from you is admittedly quite hilarious). Nor am I actively trying to avoid getting banned (please tell me how I'm doing this, I'm genuinly curious), my posts are simply not breaking any rules (even if I do cut it close from time to time).
    Bold: Words of a troll

    Underline: How you avoid getting banned

    You troll JUST enough, that it's not quite bannable. I commend you for your choice of words when trolling people such as myself, you are one of the slickest trolls I have ever seen




    As stated I do mention it if someone is asking for it as badly as you, otherwise no, I don't
    By posting a general statement, with absolutely no regards to you whatsoever. Is deserving? It's trolling.


    As stated I've also had to emergency heal as it a few times. I never claimed to be excellent at holy, but I do claim that I'm just as or more proficent as holy than you are as disc.
    Grats, you played holy a handful of times.

    You can't make bold statements like you have on a spec you have only played a few times, and not even by choice. In fact, you can't really even argue against people who have played holy the majority of the expansion because you don't have enough knowledge on the way it works.

    Honestly, I even take your words about disc with a grain of salt because I have 1) Never seen you play 2) never seen your logs

    Again, no one believes I am barak obama just because I say it. No one is going to believe you are a lord disc priest until you prove otherwise.


    @ramen. Yes I'm surely not posting about this to gain some amazing insight or to actually convince someone (fat chance). I simply find it entertaining to argue, if you don't I have a hard time seeing why you even are posting about this subject.
    You realize you literally, are calling yourself a troll right?


    I never claimed to be excellent at holy, but I do claim that I'm just as or more proficient as holy than you are as disc.
    Oh? I have reason, with proof to think otherwise. By now, I am sure you learned how to easily read someone's logs so I am not going to bother posting the website to my ranked logs as holy. I will let you dig your own grave saying things like this.
    Last edited by HolyLathusDisc; 2013-02-22 at 09:06 PM.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  3. #263
    Interesting that you say you don't talk people down because of progression. Pretty sure you do ALL THE TIME and here is proof.
    If you go back and read the entire post again you'll see that I also stated that I will discuss and "talk down" people due to progression if they use it as an argument first.



    -
    -
    -
    Seems steady if you ask me, considering we had never raided together in our lives and 50% of the guild was new to wow. You are a hypocrite at it's finest cookie.
    There's hardly a set measurement for what's solid progression, and my opinion is that solid progression at this stage in an expo/patch means killing every boss on hc. If you have a different measurement/opinion, keep thinking that you have solid progression. However, don't for a second think that it's the same thing killing a boss when you are overgeared towards the end of a patch as if you do it at the start of the expo with way less info/strategies and significantly worse gear.

    Thank you for proving my point, because you earlier said you in fact don't bring up things like this to take hits. More reason to not respect you.
    When did I say this? Please quote me. I do "take hits", it's simply not my primary objective when posting.


    Since you earlier said, how hard rapture is to proc on that fight. Would it not be better to have more spirit for said fight, since when rapture DID proc you would get more benefit from it on top of a higher natural regen to do other things such as, oh I don't know. Prayer of healing, PoM, Penance the tanks considering how hard the tanks get stomped between dances on that fight.
    While the tanks are getting stomped and rapture is up PW:S is an excellent spell to use purely for output, and when they aren't getting stomped you normally want to conserve as much mana as possible while keeping the raid topped, the later is easily achived despite using a PW:S. You should also keep borrowed time in mind, the combination of PW:S's hps output, rapture and this passive means that there's very few situations where it isn't the best spell to cast (assuming that you 1.) Get the absorb used and 2.) have rapture up). Rapture being "hard" to proc doesn't mean that you use more globals, mana or healing time to proc it, it means that you need to be a better player.

    Again, claim. I could claim to be Obama, but no one will believe me unless I show up at their doorstep and log into MMO-champion in front of their eyes. You can't talk big talk, and not be able to back it up with proof.
    Yes, and if I actually cared about you respecting(since this for some reason is your premiss for respect)/beliving me you'd have a point.

    My purpose for posting is generally to entertain myself, and arguing with someone is something I find entertaining, purely insulting/trolling usually isn't (though getting a lenghty and upset response from you is admittedly quite hilarious). Nor am I actively trying to avoid getting banned (please tell me how I'm doing this, I'm genuinly curious), my posts are simply not breaking any rules (even if I do cut it close from time to time).
    Bold: Words of a troll

    Underline: How you avoid getting banned

    You troll JUST enough, that it's not quite bannable. I commend you for your choice of words when trolling people such as myself, you are one of the slickest trolls I have ever seen
    If you aren't posting here to have fun I'm seriously questioning why you are. So basically I'm avoiding to get banned by following the rules? I think that's how most people do it. Thanks for flattering me though.


    By posting a general statement, with absolutely no regards to you whatsoever. Is deserving? It's trolling.
    The statement(s) I'm refering to were aimed to other posters who were trying to have a discussion, to me that's deserving.
    Grats, you played holy a handful of times.

    You can't make bold statements like you have on a spec you have only played a few times, and not even by choice. In fact, you can't really even argue against people who have played holy the majority of the expansion because you don't have enough knowledge on the way it works.
    You say that I don't have enough knowledge to argue about holy, I say that you don't have enough knowledge to argue about disc. Catch 22.

    Honestly, I even take your words about disc with a grain of salt because I have 1) Never seen you play 2) never seen your logs

    Again, no one believes I am barak obama just because I say it. No one is going to believe you are a lord disc priest until you prove otherwise.
    Again, I don't care if you think I'm the best disc in the world or that I haven't cleared msv on normal. To me reasoning (nothing else) is the way you should back up your arguments, especially on a forum.

    @ramen. Yes I'm surely not posting about this to gain some amazing insight or to actually convince someone (fat chance). I simply find it entertaining to argue, if you don't I have a hard time seeing why you even are posting about this subject.
    You realize you literally, are calling yourself a troll right?
    There's a difference between arguing and trolling. Trolling is internet slang so there's no set description, but the general meaning is that your primary purpose for writing something is to make a person hurt/upset. My primary purpose with this post is to argue, which albeit slightly similar isn't the same thing. Some would even say that the primary purpose of a forum is to argue with people (it'd be a very boring forum if everyone kept agreeing with each other:P).

    Oh? I have reason, with proof to think otherwise. By now, I am sure you learned how to easily read someone's logs so I am not going to bother posting the website to my ranked logs as holy. I will let you dig your own grave saying things like this
    I think you missunderstood what I wrote there (and admittedly it wasn't crystal clear). I mean that I'm just as good the holy spec as you are at the disc spec (which in my opinion isn't very hard), and from what I can see there's nothing proving otherwise (two poor disc rankings, and generally very strange spell usage in your disc logs).
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-02-22 at 09:19 PM.

  4. #264
    Two poor disc rankings because my holy spec rankings were better. You only get one per fight

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  5. #265
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    That's called your opinion (and a logical fallacy), not logic:P. I agree that lightwell is harder to get optimal use of from the raid than barrier, but apart from placement it's not a responsibility that the priest is forced to shoulder, I also doubt that holy is designed/balanced around the raid making perfect usage of the lightwell (more likely around lightspring). That you gear for as much mana as you need to do your job, and not beyond that, is completely standard and a widely accepted premiss as a healer. The net result of a spec having less regen is (unless it's a difference that can't be compensated by gearing, and in this case it isn't, at least in 10 man) a difference in how much output you can gear for.
    Holy mana being less than disc is not an opinion. It's a fact. Holy and Disc have equivalent combat regen and abilities. But Disc has rapture. A ridiculously powerful rapture, I might add.

    You believing that is an opinion is a logical fallacy, and it frankly makes you look uninformed.

    You also agreed that it is harder to get optimal use of Lightwell. So you agreed with me. And even if you think Lightwell is a drop and forget spell, even if that were true, it makes me question how much you really understand it's place in progression.

    So a recap for you:

    1.) It is a fact, not opinion, that Disc regen is better than Holy.
    2.) It is a fact, not opinion, that Lightwell requires more effort than PW:B
    3.) Therefore, since 1 and 2 are facts, then my initial comment about the only difference I see between the two specs is that holy has a tougher time with mana and dealing with Lightwell are true. So stop arguing, you are starting to look foolish.
    Last edited by ramennoodleking; 2013-02-22 at 09:21 PM.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
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  6. #266
    You believing that is an opinion is a logical fallacy, and it frankly makes you look uninformed.
    I don't believe that disc and holy has the same regen at the same spirit level, you making a strawman and using a black-or-white argument are both logical fallacies. To clarify:

    Holy mana being less than disc is not an opinion. It's a fact. Holy and Disc have equivalent combat regen and abilities. But Disc has rapture. A ridiculously powerful rapture, I might add.
    Strawman, I never stated that holy and disc had the same regen at the same spirit level, yet you are speaking as if that's my argument. Black-or-white, refusing to look at anything but equal amounts of spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    1.) It is a fact, not opinion, that Disc regen is better than Holy.
    2.) It is a fact, not opinion, that Lightwell requires more effort than PW:B
    3.) Therefore, since 1 and 2 are facts, then my initial comment about the only difference I see between the two specs is that holy has a tougher time with mana and dealing with Lightwell. So stop arguing, you are starting to look foolish.
    1.) It is a fact, not opinion, that disc regen is better than holy at an equal amount of spirit, this should never be the case in 10 man raiding.
    2.) It is a fact, not opinion, that lightwell requires more effort than PW:B for the raidmembers/leader.
    3.) Due to healers always using/should use just enough regen holy doesn't necessarily have a harder time managing mana, hence your statement is incorrect. Lightwell is giving the raid/raidleader/healing leader a tougher time, and not necessarily the priest, hence your statement that holy has a tougher time dealing with lightwell is incorrect.

    Two poor disc rankings because my holy spec rankings were better. You only get one per fight
    Feel free to link me the logs where you would've ranked as disc otherwise.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-02-22 at 09:33 PM.

  7. #267
    But I'll take credit for mis understanding the last part.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  8. #268
    2.) It is a fact, not opinion, that Lightwell requires more effort than PW:B
    Which fights are you using LW unglyphed? I'm curious to see a log.

  9. #269
    You think a priest with 13k spirit regents as fast as a disc with 13k spirit and using rapture on cooldown have the same mana regeneration?


    What world do you live in cookie?

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 09:52 PM ----------

    Rephrase. Read it wrong.

    Regardless of spirit, disc regen is superior to holy on every level because they have two sources of regen.

    Spirit does not matter, if a holy priest has 13k and disc has 10.


    Disc still wins via rapture.


    5.2 we will see.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  10. #270
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Must be nice to live in a world where you believe that disc is equivalent to holy because it can equal it's regen by severely cuttin out spirit and stacking throughout/hpm secondaries. At this point you are just too stubborn to admit you are wrong.

    And the caveat about the raid leaders job? Even if you are in a guild where everyone is mute or too dumb to help organize raid strategies, the mere fact that lightwell a usefulness depends on others is much worse than PW:B, which guarantees results.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
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  11. #271
    You are trolling us, aren't you Lathus?
    Because you are not reading the posts you are supposedly responding to.

    -possible missunderstanding was resolved
    Last edited by Noradin; 2013-02-22 at 10:45 PM.

  12. #272
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    Which fights are you using LW unglyphed? I'm curious to see a log.
    Presently I am not unglyphing it. The fights that would best utilize LW vs LS are better handled simply by speccing Disc and mitigating the damage entirely.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
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  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    You are trolling us, aren't you Lathus?
    Because you are not reading the posts you are supposedly responding to.

    What? I'm responding on my phone so I'm not making the most use of quoting.

    Although I don't see how this would be trolling?

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  14. #274
    Regardless of spirit, disc regen is superior to holy on every level because they have two sources of regen.

    Spirit does not matter, if a holy priest has 13k and disc has 10.

    Disc still wins via rapture.

    5.2 we will see.
    With picture perfect rapture usage, yes the disc has slightly more regen in this case (but not a huge difference), which largely is offset my PW:S mana cost. However the playstyle, spell usage, costs and output is different and requires different amounts of mana (you obviously have to use PW:S way more as disc, and it's damn expensive), for me it'd also not be a difference of 10 vs 13k, I'm currently using just below 9k as disc (and I'd definitely play with 13k as holy), mainly because (outside of PW:S) I find myself using slightly more expensive spells as holy. For me that doesn't feel very different regen wise (and well, it isn't).

    Must be nice to live in a world where you believe that disc is equivalent to holy because it can equal it's regen by severely cuttin out spirit and stacking throughout/hpm secondaries. At this point you are just too stubborn to admit you are wrong.
    Do you actually believe that my "case" ever was that disc and holy had equal regen at equal amounts of spirit (since this is the only thing you've "proven wrong")? That's actually kinda offending, and very ignorant:P. Also you should probably let me explain what my opinion/argument is, if you decide what my arguments are, for me, it's hard to have a discussion in the first place.

    And the caveat about the raid leaders job? Even if you are in a guild where everyone is mute or too dumb to help organize raid strategies, the mere fact that lightwell a usefulness depends on others is much worse than PW:B, which guarantees results.
    From what I can see blizzard aren't balancing the game around people not using spells (the auto attack damage of different classes are actually very different!) nor around complete ignorance of things around you (excluding lfr). But if you despite that happen to be in a guild with mute and dumb people (I doubt lightwell is your biggest issue then), go ahead and glyph it. A glyphed lightspring is far closer to lightwells maximum potential than a PW:B without any coordination.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-02-22 at 10:35 PM.

  15. #275
    So then cookie.


    Would you still spec out of spirit come 5.2 with the nerfs to rapture?

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-22 at 10:29 PM ----------

    Cause last I checked, discs regen via rapture was so rediculously higher then holy, and any other healer for that manner regardless of spewing out of spirit, blizzard said they were nerfing it.


    I don't see how you can say disc is the same regen as any healer, let alone holy considering the known nerfs to regen via rapture.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    Presently I am not unglyphing it. The fights that would best utilize LW vs LS are better handled simply by speccing Disc and mitigating the damage entirely.
    So that whole shizzle about the difficulty of LW was just something theoretical? Since you never actually do it? Do you know of any priest using it unglyphed successfully?

    For the record, I dont believe holy is balanced around optimal use of lightwell, just like prayer of healing isn't balanced around hitting 5 targets. I'm also yet to see a single priest this expansion using it unglyphed. Right now, I would hardly call Lightwell (or better said Lightspring) a raid cd, its a stupid hot that breaks on dmg, and basically just some passive healing for holy priests.

  17. #277
    I'll be using more spirit in 5.2 than now for sure, that atonement is a lot stronger (comparatively) does mean that I won't have to increase it 'that' much though (I'll use more low cost spells than currently), thinking around 10k. If I progressionraid on my priest in 5.2 (I'm currently raiding on my dk tank, and just pugging a bit with my priest) I'll definitely be speccing holy on at least a few fights though.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-02-22 at 10:32 PM.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    Cookie, telling a holy priest that he is not a playing the absolutely most hard thing in game is like insulting their whole family :P. I dunno about buttons, but it is the specc with the most representatives of "special snowflake" syndrome. It doesn't matter that since TBC they got about 3 more buttons, and they barely use them, since most are shit (ie chakras and holy words).

    Played holy for the first month of mop, after not playing it for 2 expansions. Nothing felt especially hard about it. The only thing that saved me from falling asleep out of sheer boredom was DI. I even got ranked for a couple of kills. I'd like to believe that holy priests will someday get off their high horses but they got that martyrdom complex for so long, it's unlikely. If they dont get any new spell for the next 10 years, while all the other healers in the game change completely, they will still say they are the most complex healer out there. And I think blizzard knows! that's why they dont do much new stuff for holy, because they know they are already happy with being the ultimate complex specc no matter what.

    "Oh, Saph, here comes 5.2 and we'll see you sucking as holy!" "wiggles finger".
    Well, I'm a pretty mediocre disc too, so nothing new there. Good thing I get paid for something else and I dont need to feed my ego with video games "hard stuff" .
    Weird, I thought you don't like taking things too personally. Seems you are doing just that

    Anyway, Lathus doesn't represent all holy priests. I'm an example of one who disagrees with him. I don't think holy is tougher to master than disc or vice versa, its just different. I think you'll automatically be better at what you enjoy more. For you, holy is obviously not the right spec. That's not to say we never use holy words, while its true Sanctuary isn't doing so hot right now, I use Serenity a lot even in raids environment (and certainly in 5 man).

    Anyway, arguing that holy is interesting or not is irrelevant, since there are like, what, 5 people worldwide playing the spec? LOL (laughing at myself here :P)

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    I'll be using more spirit in 5.2 than now for sure, that atonement is a lot stronger (comparatively) does mean that I won't have to increase it 'that' much though (I'll use more low cost spells than currently), thinking around 10k. If I progressionraid on my priest in 5.2 (I'm currently raiding on my dk tank, and just pugging a bit with my priest) I'll definitely be speccing holy on at least a few fights though.

    Goodluck raiding as holy in 5.2 with 11k spirit. I don't see that happening at all.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  20. #280
    Its not about quoting, I for one don't do much of it either, but you seem to miss (intentionally? maybe it's reading on your phone) parts of the points others make or misread them.

    For example the point about Disc and Holy having different amounts of reagen if they were to gear the same. Nobody said they have the same amount, but that is exactly what you imply. Instead Cookie and others brought up the point that Disc and Holy would not have the same amount of spirit if played well. Holy has to keep an eye on their spirit to keep it high enough, Disc needs less spirit, but they have to keep an eye on it to find the right balance, because they (should) need these statpoints elsewhere. Disc struggles with on sudden demand healing and will hit its HpS ceiling easily - Holy has a much higher ceiling but has to keep an eye on mana if they heal for more than they can sustain.

    True Disc has numbers that are a bit high right now, since many encounters this tier favor that spec and all those mechanic changes made the deffs overbuff it when it appear to be to weak (which it was in the begining). But a larger part of problem is the way logs work.
    In the past it was resonable to look at effective healing and overhealing and seeing exessive overhealing as something that should be changed if mana was a problem - nowadays people belive all overhealing is bad and wasted - which it is not, playing with no overheal is indicative of taking more risks now that there is no downranking anymore. Today we have a substantial amount of absorbs going around from several healing classes. Looking at effetive ApS and HpS versus overheal and exspired absorbs as is still done by the logs is just as bad as just neglecting all absorbs. Both are misleading. The way our logs work all healing buffer and all overheal due to lack of fitting heals/absorbs (like downranking) is wrongly distributed to the healing portion ("overheal") even if it should be distributed almost evenly between heals and absorbs.

    If you search for potential to negate extra damage, you will mostly find it in the "overheal" portion of the logs.
    Just because absorbs are accounted for first doesn't make those absorbs any bigger, true, sometimes absorbs are more valueable (and sometimes they are less valuealbe), but not nealy as much as those logs would make you believe at first glance (and a first glance is all most people give them).
    Last edited by Noradin; 2013-02-22 at 10:44 PM.

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