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  1. #341
    Those cooldowns are much bigger for druids and shamans, than the respective CDs for disc and paladins. He also ignored secondary CDs which are completely game changing for druids and shamans.
    I'm aware, I said so, and that's not what that discussion was about in said thread. Also, what do you mean by secondary cds?

    The calculations are reasonably (not entirely) correct for what the purpose was, and once you factor in the fact that disc have far worse cds and more severe limitations (than anything but shamans at least) it's quite obvious that we are the worst raidhealers in 5.2.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-02-24 at 09:21 PM.

  2. #342
    Holy has better AoE heals and disc specializes in bubbles and penance

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyCupofJoe View Post
    Holy has better AoE heals and disc specializes in bubbles and penance
    This man... He gets it !!

  4. #344
    E.g. for resto, did he take into account ascendance and unleash elements, or the level 90 talents for all classes. Did he include ToL and nature's vigil for druids or at least heart of the wild?

    It certainly does not look like.

    The difference between using those CDs and not using them is massive for shamans. Not using healing tide is like not using spirit shell. Unleash elements is also very useful when the raid is full health and about to enter a burst phase. 30% on the healing rain is a massive boost in throughput. This kind of thing is difficult to model for shamans, but it makes a big difference when maximising hPS.

    Then I don't think the lvl 90 talents have been taken into account.

    Here is a fairly maximised sequence for disc assuming high raid wide damage:

    1.363636364 1.363636364 PWS
    2.944664032 1.581027668 Penance
    4.130434783 1.185770751 Solace
    5.316205534 1.185770751 PoM
    6.679841897 1.363636364 BH
    8.043478261 1.363636364 PWS
    9.229249012 1.185770751 cascade
    11.2055336 1.976284585 PoH
    13.47826087 2.272727273 PoH
    14.84189723 1.363636364 PWS
    16.4229249 1.581027668 Penance
    17.60869565 1.185770751 solace
    18.7944664 1.185770751 PoM
    20.15810277 1.363636364 BH
    21.52173913 1.363636364 PWS
    23.49802372 1.976284585 PoH
    25.77075099 2.272727273 PoH
    27.13438735 1.363636364 Smite
    29.40711462 2.272727273 PoH
    Healing values (per target) and assuming no tier bonus, 28% mastery and 23% crit with 26435 spellpower (this is low with 35k sp you get 28% more healing/absorb)

    PWS 108456.6796
    PoH 45509.12109
    PoM 43403.26999
    Penance 52811.18993
    BH 66365.37518
    Holy Fire 56802.43608
    Smite 38717.87664
    Cascade 62209.19449

    The sequence correctly incorporates evangelism for both smite/HF and penance (i.e. the 2nd and 3rd tick of penance benefit from an extra stack)

    HPS without and with archange are 141382.2364 and 165248.5991, respectively.

    This needs to be further modified for power infusion/TF

    Holy can push 25% more HPS overall when overheal is ignored.

    Calculations without detailed modelling of big CDs are totally pointless.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-02-25 at 01:43 AM.

  5. #345
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    I'm talking about LFR here, so take it with a grain of salt. But I was doing it this weekend with 0-5 fps.. nearly unplayable.. I don't even know how.. but I was worlds ahead of other healers as Holy (yes, even Disc. and yes, a very skilled Disc from my guild).

    Makes me excited to see what comes from actual raiding and non shit running game. (I hate the PTR)

  6. #346
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Holy seems better suited for 25s in general, I'm not so sure that discrepancy would be as present in 10s. This is all conjecture, so take it, too, with a salt dome of salt.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
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  7. #347
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    Holy seems better suited for 25s in general, I'm not so sure that discrepancy would be as present in 10s. This is all conjecture, so take it, too, with a salt dome of salt.
    Holy has always felt strange in 10m to me, so I agree.

  8. #348
    Disc is a little strange in 25-man because spamming PoH across 5 groups just feels clunky, or, alternatively, setting up the raid into groups optimized just for the disc priest is also a little clunky. Clever but clunky. (Obviously not doable on LFR.)

    But on the other hand atonement works very well in 25-man.

  9. #349
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    The final tier of talents also feels more suited towards 25s.

    I think holy's biggest problem in tens is its mastery. They just fulfill virtually the same role as Druids in 10s. I can't imagine what they could change our mastery to.

    It might seem clunky, but the only original thought I've had is that holy mastery instead of granting EoL instead builds up "charges" of healing energy on each person you heal, equivalent to a % of what you already get in total from EoL. Then a new ability to release that energy and heal the target instantly for whatever you've built up. The caveat would be the 15 second timer on the built up energy. It would give us something interesting, would go with the holy priest spec description of "damage reversal" and eliminate some of the forced overheating.

    /shrug

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
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  10. #350
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Theres one very simple thing they could do to improve our Mastery greatly and that is shorten the HoT by a couple of seconds. 3 sec feels right to me.

    Unless there is constant dmg EoL overheals way too much.

    Otherwise I like Holy Mastery, it's okish, could be worse really, even though I always been a fan of Haste, and probably going more towards that in 5.2.

    Oh, edit; Blizzard should put a limiter to Floating text. Can.. not... use.. it.. as... holy:P Thanks God theres MSBT, but Blizz should make that an option to, I like their numbers better as they show numbers at targets that recieved healing.
    Last edited by nobodysbaby; 2013-02-25 at 11:01 PM.

  11. #351
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    I use Blizzard floating text :P

  12. #352
    Looks like holy is the spec to go for 5.2. I will definitely be reforging haste so I can actually do some tank healing without nerfing my aoe heals for the next 30 secs.

    Actually it looks more like disc for 10 m and holy for 25m and in some cases disc for 25m and in some very rare cases holy for 10m. I really hate having to give up my shadow spec for some fights so I hope disc never shines in 25man in 5.2
    Last edited by Rorschachs; 2013-02-26 at 07:15 AM.

  13. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    Holy has always felt strange in 10m to me, so I agree.
    I agree as well, although some fights in Cata and one so far in MoP I played Holy. The limits on Chakra are really unappealing.

    When I switched mains for a bit in Cata, I did 25man GDKP runs as mostly Holy.

  14. #354
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    I know Mazi, I saw your Sha hc vid... Laughed at your HoH "dance", or was it DH^^

    Don't you wish you could set the visible numbers to a min treshold?

  15. #355
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    I know Mazi, I saw your Sha hc vid... Laughed at your HoH "dance", or was it DH^^

    Don't you wish you could set the visible numbers to a min treshold?
    Yeah I do. But I don't like MSBT. I like seeing the heals in the actual playfield... so I've learned to deal with EoL lol

  16. #356
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    I disagree. I think holy is absolutely fine in 10s, it just performs better in 25s. Disc gives it a run for its money due to atonement and the ease of preshielding the majority of ten people, but holy can remain competitive and viable. I thoroughly enjoy holy in 10s, though I do miss the days I was raiding 25s.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 04:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    Yeah I do. But I don't like MSBT. I like seeing the heals in the actual playfield... so I've learned to deal with EoL lol
    I just like green numbers. Everywhere. Sometimes I dream in green.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
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  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    I disagree. I think holy is absolutely fine in 10s, it just performs better in 25s. Disc gives it a run for its money due to atonement and the ease of preshielding the majority of ten people, but holy can remain competitive and viable. I thoroughly enjoy holy in 10s, though I do miss the days I was raiding 25s.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 04:22 PM ----------



    I just like green numbers. Everywhere. Sometimes I dream in green.
    I never said it's bad. I just said it feels weird, probably mostly because of Chakra. Serenity is far more useful in 10 but then when you have to spam PoH it feels... weird :P

  18. #358
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Lol no I was replying to Rorschachs, I knew what you meant, Mazi :P

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
    Tactical Disaster - Stormrage-US
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  19. #359
    Disc should be competitive both in 25man and 10man, on the first three bosses due to encounter design. I think holy will outperform disc on horridon though.

    Tried LFR with both disc and holy and I was about to pull bigger numbers for holy on horridon, despite atonement getting a ridiculous buff from the wipe buff thingy.

  20. #360
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    What do you mean by competetive? Numbers? Usefullness? Take into account the dmg a Disc can, and will do etc.

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