Page 6 of 19 FirstFirst ...
4
5
6
7
8
16
... LastLast
  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    ...I've said this over and over...while Pallies were doing a bit OP in DS, I still think DS was a good model for healers balance, and priests were really enjoying this. Holy wasn't forced to respec disc, despite being worse at fights like Morchok, Zonozz. Disc wasn't forced to respec holy, despite being worse at Hagara, Spine. Everyone was happy. Funny to say that while DS was a much worse raid than MsV and HoF, I enjoyed it a lot more overall - simply due to this fact.
    ...Besides the fact that they had the entire xpac to get everything to the point it should've been at the start. Tier 11 and 12 weren't even close.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    I disagree with the above statement. I was a holy priest for about half of our progression in this tier. Holy was fine for all fights, disc just provided a cushion for the heavy hitters.

    I was holy for Stone Guards, Spirit kings, Elegon, Will, Garalon, Wind lord, protectors, and tsulong.

    The obsession with using WoL as proof is futile. People respecced to Disc by the droves in order to take advantage of Discs...well, advantages. Holy was shoved under the rug since it couldn't completely negate mechanics like disc could. But to believe these fights weren't/aren't doable without a disc priest is total folly.
    Yeah, I disagree as well. Seems to me like disc is just a bit better in one aspect and thats why people are currently respeccing for it. I guess its hard to discuss further if we disagree that much though.

  3. #103
    Stood in the Fire h3lladvocate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    幻想郷
    Posts
    465
    Quote Originally Posted by Findulidas View Post
    Yeah, I disagree as well. Seems to me like disc is just a bit better in one aspect and thats why people are currently respeccing for it. I guess its hard to discuss further if we disagree that much though.
    The main advantage Disc has, in my experience, it removes the need to worry about raid CD's for most fights. Takes H Blade Lord. Generally, you would need some sort of raid/personal CD to survive the slash (technically yea, you don't need a CD, but you'll be damn near death). Disc just makes it a utter joke. No thought needed by raid members, if 1-2 members don't get hit, no big deal, the rest of the raid has 400k abosrbs. Ofc the fights are doable with Holy, but it requires more effort. Why put through the effort when you can just respec and faceroll?

    That and Disc's DPS. I know my 80k DPS as Disc on H Lei Shi was a definite advantage over anything Holy could ever bring. A properly geared Disc can pull .5-.7 of a true DPS's damage, and in 10 man, that makes things much easier (going from a 5 DPS roster to a 5.5 equivalent, that's a 10% boost in DPS). Not to mention all the ghimicks where I can double dip on buffs.

    I still think Disc will be a popular choice in 5.2. The DPS ability alone is very nice for 10 man. Spirit shell still has some ability to trivialize things (not as much, but some).

    On another note, I really wish they would rework Twist of Faith. Terrible talent is TERRIBLE for healers... (Should make it 20% threshold for doing damage gives 15% and 40% threshold for healing gives 5%, that way, if you game it, you get a good buff, but it isn't complete trash if you can't hit a 20% target. Really, the raid is rarely sub 20%)
    <Rustlemania> - 10 Man Raiding - 12/14 H SoO, 13/13 H ToT, 16/16H T14

    Faera - 90 Priest - Non-Disc/Disc PvE

  4. #104
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Louisiana, United States
    Posts
    1,395
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakamae View Post
    ...Besides the fact that they had the entire xpac to get everything to the point it should've been at the start. Tier 11 and 12 weren't even close.
    Again, I have to disagree. I cleared Heroic Chogall, Nefarian, and Al'akir, all while the current tier, as holy. Top heals as well, and ranked. In fact, the only fight that tier I wasn't holy for was Chimeron, and that was only due to PS and PW:B.

    Further, I was holy every fight of heroic firelands except for Majordomo, again for PW:B. Grants, I killed H Rag after he was nerfed, but it was still as holy.

    I think the problem with holy is it has a higher skill cap (no offense to discs). It's easier to put out numbers and look useful as disc, but a well played holy can be a tremendous boon to the raid.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
    Tactical Disaster - Stormrage-US
    16/16 Heroic T14
    10/13 Heroic T15

  5. #105
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    1,433
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    Again, I have to disagree. I cleared Heroic Chogall, Nefarian, and Al'akir, all while the current tier, as holy. Top heals as well, and ranked. In fact, the only fight that tier I wasn't holy for was Chimeron, and that was only due to PS and PW:B.

    Further, I was holy every fight of heroic firelands except for Majordomo, again for PW:B. Grants, I killed H Rag after he was nerfed, but it was still as holy.

    I think the problem with holy is it has a higher skill cap (no offense to discs). It's easier to put out numbers and look useful as disc, but a well played holy can be a tremendous boon to the raid.
    It's like you're living in my brain Ramen.. I've missed you!

  6. #106
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Louisiana, United States
    Posts
    1,395
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    It's like you're living in my brain Ramen.. I've missed you!
    Missed you too I haven't felt worthy posting too much on here since my new job has me missing 4 raid nights out of 12...but aww heck, I still priest it up as best I can! Now where has Kel even these days? You two (and the long lost Spiritus) are my buddies!

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 06:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by h3lladvocate View Post
    The main advantage Disc has, in my experience, it removes the need to worry about raid CD's for most fights. Takes H Blade Lord. Generally, you would need some sort of raid/personal CD to survive the slash (technically yea, you don't need a CD, but you'll be damn near death). Disc just makes it a utter joke. No thought needed by raid members, if 1-2 members don't get hit, no big deal, the rest of the raid has 400k abosrbs. Ofc the fights are doable with Holy, but it requires more effort. Why put through the effort when you can just respec and faceroll?

    That and Disc's DPS. I know my 80k DPS as Disc on H Lei Shi was a definite advantage over anything Holy could ever bring. A properly geared Disc can pull .5-.7 of a true DPS's damage, and in 10 man, that makes things much easier (going from a 5 DPS roster to a 5.5 equivalent, that's a 10% boost in DPS). Not to mention all the ghimicks where I can double dip on buffs.

    I still think Disc will be a popular choice in 5.2. The DPS ability alone is very nice for 10 man. Spirit shell still has some ability to trivialize things (not as much, but some).

    On another note, I really wish they would rework Twist of Faith. Terrible talent is TERRIBLE for healers... (Should make it 20% threshold for doing damage gives 15% and 40% threshold for healing gives 5%, that way, if you game it, you get a good buff, but it isn't complete trash if you can't hit a 20% target. Really, the raid is rarely sub 20%)
    I agree on Twist of Fate. And really, most of what you said is spot on, though probably more likely for 10 man heroic progression. While holy can match/exceed the damage of disc, it has to spend GCDs on CoH, Casade/DS, and PoM to send out any heals like a disc can. And on tight enrages where you don't -quite- need three healers, disc has a clear advantage there. Not to beat a dead horse, but heroic garajal and Lei shi progression fights come to mind.

    I think it is probably possible for a holy dps/heals hybrid to compete with a disc with the right gearing (can sacrifice way more spirit than a disc can due to the chakra mechanic), but I've only been able to very sparingly test this in normal mode pugs since I can't afford to waste what limited time our 9 hour weeks provide us to experiment. But in my head it works.

    Without proper gearing, I recall pulling about 60k dps and 40k hps on feng normal playing around as a .5 healer. I suppose this could translate a lot better with proper gearing and more practice. /shrug its all napkin math and dreamy thoughts, but I bet it could be done with a ton of effort.
    Last edited by ramennoodleking; 2013-02-14 at 06:56 PM.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
    Tactical Disaster - Stormrage-US
    16/16 Heroic T14
    10/13 Heroic T15

  7. #107
    Twist of Faith double dips on atonement and it looks like there are few fights where you are constantly fed low health adds to proc it from in the new raids, so it will probably be a good talent to have for those fights, especially since atonement will be big in 5.2 and power infusion is not as useful as it was with the spirit shell nerf.

    Absorbs can be perfectly balanced and disc had lots of absorbs in 5.0 but it was still bad. The only problem that disc has now is absorbs are too much

    I would say aegis just needed to be nerfed and the cap on both aegis and spirit shell should be reduced a lot and their duration increased to at least 30s.


    I really don't know what you guys are talking about. Unseen strike is no problem whatsoever even on hc. You can remove spirit shell and absorbs from the game completely and unseen strike won't be a problem. Especially on 25man its impossible to hit everyone with spirit shell. Its only windstep that kills people and paladins can simply remove that from the start. Disc is awesome on bladelord hc because of barrier, which is what really trivialises unseen strikes.

    The encounters where spirit shell makes a massive difference to survival are lei shi (on tanks), Vizier hc and empress. All other encounters spirit shell is no different from any other cooldown except it is a 1 minute CD, which is one of the reason disc is so strong. Spirit shell is easily equal to a tranquility or healing tide. Disc is no different to a druid with 1 minute tranq or a shaman with 1 minute healing tide.

    Disc is not OP because the absorbs trivialise mechanics. Disc is OP because with the amount of absorbs it can stack it can produce massive throughput. Where other classes can't heal when the bars are full, disc can put down massive massive absorb stack. So effectively disc get much more effective healing time than any other class. Even though the healthbars are full and all other classes are doing zero healing disc is still producing 40-100% of its maximal HPS (100% if you have spirit shell up). If all healers produce the same amount during the bursts, but one healer can use the time between bursts to build a large absorption stack, guess who will be at the top of the meters. The other thing that makes disc ridiculously OP is atonement on bosses with damage buffs.

    Holy simply can't match the power of atonement, although it can do more DPS than discipline, its heals are really week in the offensive chakra and discipline has evangelism/AA.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-02-15 at 01:29 AM.

  8. #108
    For 10 man spirit shell is way stronger than barrier in almost every situation and does indeed trivialise unseen strike (no one takes, litterarly, any damage if it hits everyone, and you'll survive even if it hits 4-5 players unlike the ~8 normally required), I'm sure that barrier is stronger in 25 man and the fight is easy enough either way, but spirit shell still removes any challenge there is. It's also far stronger than healing tide or tranq vs any bursty aoe dmg, things like raining blades (or force and verve), we've occasionally had a player die during raining blades during tranq when I was playing shadow while it barely gets through spirit shell when I heal, while not being weaker vs more consistent aoe.

    I don't agree with the direction disc is taking in 5.2 (atonement4ever) but nerfing spirit shells power in aoe situations is definitely something I don't mind. It is indeed the fact that they can heal when the bars are full (and the reason we can do that are absorbs) that does trivialise some mechanics and I really feel like disc would be way easier to balance without the current form of spirit shell (it's really hard to keep us balanced on some fights without being op/up on others)

    I do think that DA and SS are the things that make disc too strong but nerfing them like you suggest (lower caps) would barely affect 25 man, where disc is considered the strongest right now, just 10 man.

  9. #109
    The problem with unseen strikes is people with windstep. So if they are soaking too and they are taking 100k ticks they will have zero absorb when the unseen strike hits and if you are soaking with 5 players they will die, especially in the latter unseen strikes which hit a bit harder. With barrier they will still survive even if it hits 5 players and even if they have windstep, because it also reduces the damage from windstep so you can keep them at high health before unseen hits and be ready to heal them hard after. Spirit shell maxed can increase player health by 50%, though not necessarily the tank because he gets hit and not people with windstep.

    Spirit shell leaves no healing for other people, but it is actually not as good at trivialising the mechanic as barrier is. Especially on 25man, where you just can't hit everyone with spirit shell and where unseen strike hits harder.

    Or you can have 3 paladins with clemency, who can just remove windstep and you stack with everyone.

    Unseen strike is definitely one of those encounters where spirit shell pads the meters nicely, without having a proportional impact on survival. I am not saying it does not help. I am saying it does not really help anywhere as much as ppl think.

    Rain of blades on 10man I can see spirit shell being too strong, but in 25man our raid does not organise positions properly so you can hit a lot of ppl with spirit shell and the result is that there is little absorbs on the ranged. Our druids, monks and shamans, manage it just fine.

    Healing tide is definitely as strong as spirit shell. 2.5-2.7 million absorb from spirit shell max on 10 man and whatever the disc can heal, but the shaman can also pop tide and keep healing. Tranq is not quite as strong for burst because a lot of its healing is end rather than front loaded, but two druids each with 1 minute tranq, will out heal rain of blades 100% of the time easily even when the raid is really spread out and you can't hit 4-5 targets with PoH.

    Spirit shell is just a strong ability at 1min CD in most fights.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-02-15 at 12:21 PM.

  10. #110
    And with a SS there's 0 risk just having them stand outside during unseen, which is what we do. Without the unseen damage there's no risk that wind step kills anyone (your healers have that+the tanks to keep up, which is less damage than most fights) and it does trivialise the encounter, at least in 10 man. If your raid doesn't position/group people properly that's an issue on your side, abilities should be balanced around people playing properly, and if you do SS has a massive impact, even if 25 man (but yes it's closer to a healing boost, e.g. tree of life, than a raidwide cd in 25). Yes 2 druid tranqs will outheal rain of blades, one tranq won't, one healing tide+the shaman healing won't, one spirit shell easily does. In this tier it's an (albeit a bit situational, but less so than barrier) extremly strong raidwide cd on a 1 min cd, at least in 10 man.

  11. #111
    Stood in the Fire h3lladvocate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    幻想郷
    Posts
    465
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    And with a SS there's 0 risk just having them stand outside during unseen, which is what we do. Without the unseen damage there's no risk that wind step kills anyone (your healers have that+the tanks to keep up, which is less damage than most fights) and it does trivialise the encounter, at least in 10 man. If your raid doesn't position/group people properly that's an issue on your side, abilities should be balanced around people playing properly, and if you do SS has a massive impact, even if 25 man (but yes it's closer to a healing boost, e.g. tree of life, than a raidwide cd in 25). Yes 2 druid tranqs will outheal rain of blades, one tranq won't, one healing tide+the shaman healing won't, one spirit shell easily does. In this tier it's an (albeit a bit situational, but less so than barrier) extremly strong raidwide cd on a 1 min cd, at least in 10 man.
    Basically this. If, for instance, on H Blade Lord my tanks were Blood DK/Prot Pally, that removes 2 raid CD's for the raid on that fight. 10 man is already fairly limited on raid CD's because of, well, 10 people, which is why Spirit Shell is so godly on 10. No raid CD coordnation needed, 1 minute CD means it can be used usually on every raid wide ability a boss does, 100% damage prevention instead of after-the-fact healing or partial reduction. Also, as for blade lord, allows for mistakes to be made. Only 8 people got in for Unseen? Normally, a wipe (at least someone will die, prob the Priest/Shaman), but with spirit shell, they just go down to half HP.

    Back on topic. The Disc changes seem interesting. Mostly positive, some worry. Don't know how big a deal it will be with Disc casting PW:S more often, but PW:S critting has always been a contraversy amonst Disc (4pcT13). Since it's unpredictable, and we use shield breaks for mana, it would suck to be like "Oh, the mage is gonna take 150k damage, lemme Shield him and get mana, oh... I crit for 220k... no mana..." Might not be a huge deal if we are casting multiple PW:S's on a regular basis, but only time will tell.

    I need to see (calc) how much mastery is going to help Disc's PoH. Previously, I did the math, and at equal mastery as Holy, Disc would need 3 of the 5 heals of PoH to all crit to equal Holy's PoH (assuming same number of crits). i.e. Base PoH for Disc is a '1', then a Holy PoH with equal mastery is at '1.5' (I had about 25% mastery and 25% from chakra). With Disc getting .8% healing per point, it looks like I'd be getting ~15% +healing from Mastery as Disc now. So Disc PoH will still be quite a bit smaller than Holy's (though less of a margin)

    Not sure how I feel about Crit's being 100% absorbs (well the crit portion). It means I can never heal for more than my base value... Fights like Tsulong become worse for us, since all crits on him(her?) are wasted. If there is a fight where HP % matters, Disc has a harder time with it as again, crits are wasted. Fights like Baleroc (though they did change this) and Gara'jal where attacks go through absorbs... again, crits are wasted. Seems like this could be a problem. I'd rather have 150% crits and 75% absorbs than 100/100, so at least crits do some additional healing...
    <Rustlemania> - 10 Man Raiding - 12/14 H SoO, 13/13 H ToT, 16/16H T14

    Faera - 90 Priest - Non-Disc/Disc PvE

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    And with a SS there's 0 risk just having them stand outside during unseen, which is what we do. Without the unseen damage there's no risk that wind step kills anyone (your healers have that+the tanks to keep up, which is less damage than most fights) and it does trivialise the encounter, at least in 10 man. If your raid doesn't position/group people properly that's an issue on your side, abilities should be balanced around people playing properly, and if you do SS has a massive impact, even if 25 man (but yes it's closer to a healing boost, e.g. tree of life, than a raidwide cd in 25). Yes 2 druid tranqs will outheal rain of blades, one tranq won't, one healing tide+the shaman healing won't, one spirit shell easily does. In this tier it's an (albeit a bit situational, but less so than barrier) extremly strong raidwide cd on a 1 min cd, at least in 10 man.
    Its not a positioning issue. It is impossible to hit even most of the raid , because you have to fit 25 ppl in a limited space and have to keep the exit path free from cyclone. SS does not go on everyone. Spirit shell also does not guarantee no deaths because the damage on 25 man is massive, so if by accident it hits half the raid they will die SS or not. On 10man spirit shell still might not be enough to save your raid if the strike only hits half the ppl stacking, because spirit shell increases health by 60% max. Even if you don't cast any spirit shells and leave the person with windstep outside you will be fine for every strike. Just look for parses on bladelord hc without disc and you will see. It is absolutely no problem. Spirit shell makes a tiny tiny difference here.

    One shaman + tide will outheal blades on 10man hc solo. I know so because I have seen a resto shaman outheal it solo on 10hc. Tranq will also out heal it, but maybe less reliably. You realise that it heals for 50-60k per target and its smart and it benefits from haste. It will heal everyone in the raid for 120k+crits in just 5s or so. It hits for 27k per 0.5s on hc and it lasts for 8s. It will take 7s to kill anyone and you supply 100k healing to everyone they will leave through it. Tranq will also outheal it almost but not always because the tanks might soak up too many of the heals. On 25 man again because of the bombs you just cant hit a big chunk of the raid with it anyway. You realise that a holy priest with practically outheal it solo without any other CDs if they can hit everyone with PoH.

    On empress on the other hand the damage on the whole raid from back to back bursts is really hard to heal without absorbs, so spirit shell essentially lets you fuck up completely and still live through it no probs. That is trivialising mechanics, not outhealing something that is not really that dangerous and won't kill anyone.

    Force and Verve is also unsurvivable without CDs so having someone with a 1 minute very strong CD is just a humongous advantage.

    ========================================================================================== ==

    The new changes are quite interesting. I need to go and calculate and see whether they fix the problem of low throughput. If they did that might fix discipline actually.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-02-15 at 08:58 PM.

  13. #113
    I play disc for blade lord just for the unseen strike personally.

    ALTHOUGH, we have a holy paladin BoP the windstep people as much as possible and rotate single target CD on them for the strike so that the dot isn't a HUGE threat during the actual strike.


    Pain Suppression/Dark Bargain ECT.

    I don't agree with the direction disc is taking in 5.2 (atonement4ever) but nerfing spirit shells power in aoe situations is definitely something I don't mind. It is indeed the fact that they can heal when the bars are full (and the reason we can do that are absorbs) that does trivialise some mechanics and I really feel like disc would be way easier to balance without the current form of spirit shell (it's really hard to keep us balanced on some fights without being op/up on others)

    I am unsure how I feel, I haven't gotten on the PTR to test disc yet because I am too lazy to download it right now.


    From the patch notes, I feel like they are at the very least making discs playstyle less simple minded. SS everything, PoH everything: profit

    It feels like disc actually has to think now to be useful in raids and be choosy about what spells they are using. The mastery change, I think was fairly smart. The crit heals being 100% and the actual crit being the DA is... an interesting way of changing things. They say that those changes will make us want crit less but.... Idk, feels like it makes crit pretty close to mastery depending on what your goal is as disc.


    So maybe we will see something along the lines of having 2 disc play styles where Mastery = Raid Healing spec and Crit = More pre shielding spec[Or do I even dare say disc become a tank healer again with crit?]
    Last edited by HolyLathusDisc; 2013-02-15 at 10:32 PM.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  14. #114
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Louisiana, United States
    Posts
    1,395
    I dont think you'll see much change in the 10 man healing with disc. SS, albeit weaker, still is going to be a pad for damage waves, PoH still being used to top people up, and PW:S seeing more use as a single target mitigator, or even to mitigate an entire group prior to a damage wave if SS is down, with atonement and penance fillers.

    I don't see that so much as a change in healing style as I do in raw numbers, which is were crit and mastery come into play. But overall it seems the playstyle for 10s will stay relatively intact.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
    Tactical Disaster - Stormrage-US
    16/16 Heroic T14
    10/13 Heroic T15

  15. #115
    The healing style will change for disc, depending on gear this is a straight 10-16% boost in throughput and it normalises crit and mastery essentially. I need to do the math for the breakpoints. Basically waht this change has done is boost the non crit values for all heals across the board. Crits are the same size as the old 5.2 system, but all non crits are large by a factor of (1+0.5*mastery) for the new mastery or (1+0.32*mastery) with the old mastery system. In essence blizzard applied 1/3rd of our old mastery to the non crit heals and kept crits the same, but made them apply more absorb.

    This is certainly a step in the right direction and it is not too difficult to tell whether disc will do well in the new system or not. Does this change also apply to spirit shell? I am not quite sure. Personally I like it, I think this will put us in the right throughput range and more importantly it will mean a lot less overheal from crits and more even healing. I am not sure about how PWS works with the new change. I need to test to see how the crits are applied, to see if its a nerf or not overall.

    I think I would just like to see a buff to borrowed time and I would be satisfied that disc will be more or less balanced for the new patch. I am not happy that they are still pushing us so much into atonement, because it just not fun to use a heal that you have zero control over, but the most important thing is that blizzard is recognising that throughput is too little and worse it was too dependent on the huge crits. So the kept the huge crits the same but buffed non crits too. Personally I would like to see borrowed time feature more prominently for disc. It should modify spell behaviour more, rather than just give haste.

    Now the play style is very different from before. Atonement spam is still the name of the game, because all heals were buffed the same way, but now if you don't have spirit shell for burst then Glyphed binding heal, PoM and penance are still priorities and PoH is the filler. We need to see what they did to spirit shell before deciding whether inner focus is to be used exclusively with spirit shell or not.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-02-16 at 12:23 AM.

  16. #116
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Louisiana, United States
    Posts
    1,395
    I don't see it being much different in 10 mans, honestly. I've gone through the numbers and obviously will need to get my hands on it to know for certain, but the only addition to non-SS moments is perhaps the glyphs binding heal and more PW:S. Certainly nowhere near the level of change say holy priests got with chakras.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
    Tactical Disaster - Stormrage-US
    16/16 Heroic T14
    10/13 Heroic T15

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    The healing style will change for disc, depending on gear this is a straight 10-16% boost in throughput and it normalises crit and mastery essentially. I need to do the math for the breakpoints. Basically waht this change has done is boost the non crit values for all heals across the board. Crits are the same size as the old 5.2 system, but all non crits are large by a factor of (1+0.5*mastery) for the new mastery or (1+0.32*mastery) with the old mastery system. In essence blizzard applied 1/3rd of our old mastery to the non crit heals and kept crits the same, but made them apply more absorb.
    How are crits even close to the same size when the actual heal gets split in half? The mastery isn't even close to compensating for that.

  18. #118
    Actually you are right cookie! Only the amount of aegis remained the same not the crit itself!

    This ends up being a throughput increase of just 3.6% with mastery stacking. Not nearly enough to put disc back on the map.

    I don't see it being much different in 10 mans, honestly. I've gone through the numbers and obviously will need to get my hands on it to know for certain, but the only addition to non-SS moments is perhaps the glyphs binding heal and more PW:S. Certainly nowhere near the level of change say holy priests got with chakras.
    When it will be absorbed PoM with the 2set is now your strongest heal until you get the 4set. Then it will be your second strongest heal. So whenever you anticipate damage PoM has to go out too.
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-02-16 at 02:44 AM.

  19. #119
    Actually you are right cookie! Only the amount of aegis remained the same not the crit itself!

    This ends up being a throughput increase of just 3.6% with mastery stacking. Not nearly enough to put disc back on the map.
    Actually, pff:P. According to the little math I've done crit stacking before this change seems to be more output (crits may yield slightly more overhealing, but not significant enough to change the end result) for our heals than mastery stacking after this change (and I'm still uncertain if mastery is superior to crit even with these changes, they do scale of each and it'll probably boil down to playstyle, if anyone actually is silly enough to play disc in 5.2). This is without me factoring in IF (which heavily favors the pre change numbers) and the fact that PW:S gets a net nerf from the mastery change. PW:S is able to crit now but I'm honestly uncertain if this even is a buff, if you aren't stacking crit it's insignificant, if you are it'll make rapture procing a lot more troublesome.

    TLDR: I'm almost entirely certain that these changes combined add up to (yet another) nerf for disc.

    I don't see disc being viable whatsoever when heavy aoe healing (for a longer duration than shell) is required come 5.2. I think we'll end up smiting away on the majority of the fights (atonement is getting buffed, our other healing tools are getting nerfed) and just spec holy on any fight that requires consistent aoe healing, disc just can't handle it once SS and Cascade/PoM are on cd.

    I think these are the two largest issues with disc come 5.2.
    1.) Atonement healing is insanely simple and boring (3 buttons, no targetting, yay...) yet will end up as the strongest way to heal in almost every situation (especially in 10 man).

    2.) Disc simply can't handle consistent aoe situations. I'm fine with some healing specs being slightly better or slightly worse at certain things, but disc is just incredibly far behind every other spec in this area.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-02-16 at 03:10 AM.

  20. #120
    Nope that is not right:

    If a disc priest dropped all mastery and stacked crit to say 26% his heals would have a modifier of (1+0.26*(2+0.325)) = 1.6045. With the new system this would become (1+0.5*0.208)*(1+0.25*(1+0.208)) = 1.437408, a nerf of 11%.

    However reverting to full mastery stacking with 15% crit though gives you (1+0.5*0.348)*(1+0.25*(1+0.348)) = 1.569638, so a very slightly nerf to what you could achieve before with crit, but that does not take crit overheal into account. Factoring a small amount of overheal in it ends up being a small buff. The formula without overhealing is

    base*(1+0.5*mastery)*(1+crit*(1+mastery)),

    and with overhealing it is

    base*(1+0.5*mastery)*(1-OH_h+crit*(1+mastery)*(1-OH_a)), where OH_h is the overheal on the heal part and OH_a is the aegis overheal.

    PWS if its crits are treated like aegis it will have a very slight buff otherwise it will be the same assuming you have at least 15% raid buffed crit.

    So its not a nerf, but its also not exactly a buff. Nevertheless by removing the excessive over-reliance on random crit and aegis being absorbed and making the non-crit part of the spell these changes help make disc more competitive, but its not competitive enough. Absorbs or not either disc gets more throughput or it will be rubbish.

    The over-reliance on atonement is also a big problem. Atonement is a totally brainless way to heal. It should be filler, not your major heal.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •