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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    To the first point:

    A modern fight to point to would be garalon. Steady AoE damage with 30 secon intervals of heavy raid damage. Very little overheal from disc since absorbs get pulled in first, so it is competitive on these fights. Heavy raid pulses, disc is ahead. There's little arguing this.
    Are you joking, garalon is the exact proof of what I am saying. On garalon holy is closer to disc than any other fight, exactly because you just can't set up any big absorb stacks. Look at fights like empress or windlord/blade lord or even ambershaper. Disc is miles ahead of holy because you can build big absorption stacks. Currently disc is imbalanced because its throughput is practically the same as holy but it is muchless resistant to overhealing. So looking at the same guy in the same guild (Homonoia) holy is 157k on garalon hc (http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...H/Holy_Priest/) but disc is 167k. 167/157, a 6% difference. Nerf disc throughput by 5% here and the specs are equal, but holy is not the median of all healers. If disc was 5% below the median it would squarely behind holy and balanced. In encounters however where there is shallow damage and hard burst disc is Miiiiles ahead of holy. Just like I said.

    The evidence is absolutely contradicting everything you have said so far. Looking at the logs will verify what I am saying 100%.


    The problem with disc was just raw output in the beginning, I was there. Obviously we are talking about current disc. Balancing disc is incredibly hard since you have to toggle absorbs with raw healing, and damage patterns dictate which of these is more successful. Even "barely viable" early disc would STILL be able to nearly mitigate raid mechanics, which is the issue at the very core of this discussion. It's what makes disc so unique and feel necessary.

    Secondly, you are over valuing discs "rotation." It really is a nutshell of healing. In fact, MoP bubble spamming currently doesn't exist in MoP except for in PTR 5.2. And it really didn't exist much in Cata either. Any disc priest knew PoH spam was better. So again, what the hell are you talking about?

    If blizzards plans go through, bubble spam will make a comeback in 5.2. Bubble spam is not hard, and you've said nothing to the contrary. And as I clearly mentioned in my previous post, atonement, SS, and associated cooldowns (PI, AA, IF) will be part of the rotation. None of that is hard, all you really need to know is when damage is coming. Smite away in between.

    There is no "intricate" branching. Raid damage coming? SS or PW:S preshielding. Downtime with spotty, random damage? Smite/holy fire, occasional PW:S and penance to targets you need to get heals to quick. Use PI/AA/IF prior to dumping out your presheilds.

    Discipline healing is a god damn flow chart. It's about as rigid of a healing spec as you can get.
    You might have been there but you don't see that what you just said just agreed with my point. Its raw output that decides really the viability of the spec. We just went through a series of posts explaining how disc spirit shell trivialises very little and every encounter is healable without spirit shell. Why would you bring a spec that lacks the necessary throughput when it does not bring something you can't leave without. Limiting the amount of absorbs you can stack is enough to balance the utility of disc in mitigating short strong burst damage.

    Thus as I said exactly 5% below the median and 40% absorbs (through limiting the caps) is all you need for disc to be balanced.

    There is no such thing as PWS spam in 5.1 (and there won't be any in 5.2). Bubble spam = Building large bubbles with aegis and spirit shell mate and there is branching everytime you have a big aegis stack and it is time for spirit shell for example. There is no PWS Synch your CDs with spirit shell and win = mediocre disc. Can you beat the other healers that way? After a certain gear level certainly, but that is not maximising performance. Disc is not a flow chart, but a constant stream of decisions, whose difference is easily 10% or more. Even things like casting a smite is a decision. Are you likely to need that faster borrowed time? Is the extra 5% healing worth it compared to a PoH? Sometimes it turns out its considerably better to pop archangel at 4 stacks instead.

    Yes disc is somewhat inflexible, because it is nearly always GCD locked since maximising involves squeezing as much as you can within a 20-25s window, without screwing anything up. The more you squeeze in the better your performance but the complexity increases dramatically. Squeezing that extra 5-10% out of disc requires extreme effort and concentration. More than any other healing class in the game IMO. Its not easy and its not boring that is for sure. Some people might find the constraints of the disc game play difficult to stomach, or they might have no desire to maximise, in which case then yes disc can be boring and easy and still do really well since being 20% ahead instead of 22% is not really a big deal. That is a failure of the player though not the spec.

    I think it is clear that you don't have an in-depth appreciation for the spec and that your knowledge is at best shallow. In short disc can be balanced EXACTLY as I say. Feel free to bring in all the evidence you want, I will shoot you down every time.

    PWS spam is NOT making a comeback in 5.2. PWS is too expensive and the throughput is too weak, but more importantly PWS has a 15s duration. That means you can get a maximum of 10 up and expect to give them reasonable time for all to get absorbed, but 10 PWS will cost you 135k mana in those 10s and you will get back maybe 20k. PWS spam is 100% unsustainable and blizzard wants this to be the case. More importantly compared with penance, cascade, PoH, PoM and glyphed binding heal PWS is just too weak. PoH needs to be precast for maximum effect as does cascade and PoM, so the time before the burst you have for setting up PWS is very short. You will cast a couple mostly for borrowed time and that is it. The higher usage of PWS that GC is dreaming off is a wet dream and nothing more. It will be slightly higher. Maybe one additional PWS per rapture period just before a hard burst if there is no spirit shell, but that will be for borrowed time during the burst and not necessarily for pre-shielding.

    In 5.2 all the complexity disappears because you no longer have to maintain absorbs on the raid, but also disc raw throughput is nerfed back to 5.0 levels, essentially. The atonement buff also means that disc will use atonement a lot more, which is a completely brainless way to heal. You play like a DPS most of the time....
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-02-18 at 12:58 AM.

  2. #162
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    I wasn't arguing, I was agreeing. But what you failed to understand is that unless they make every fight like garalon then disc is bound to be either very far ahead or mediocre at best. With discs current spell set, the tools at that disposal, the ones granted by the wow gods, you don't balance it. It's really that simple. The closest to balance we had was DS.

    To the other point, you obviously have no idea what I'm talking about. Bubble spam has most often been used to refer to PW:S spam, not aegis/SS, and using PW:S more IS becoming more viable with 5.2. Not to the point of ICC, but to the point where it will actually be used. Fifteen seconds is plenty of time in a ten man raid, shielding 5 targets, and is the same length of time as a spirit shell. Basically, if SS isn't up, PW:S will be your buffer for heavy raid damage on the most vulnerable targets. It may not be the most efficient, but it the quickest way to do the job SS does, which is to increase effective health and provide breathing room. Guaranteed it will be used.

    I don't care how knowledgeable you believe you are, there is nothing intricate about disc. Atonement is the only thing keeping disc GCD locked at the moment, and that is neither compelling nor helpful gameplay. If anything, the extra raid dps hinders 10 mans. But by all means, if you have the magic cure to make disc viable then write GC a letter.

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  3. #163
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    The rollercoaster of Disc happened because of a few things;
    1. Players didn't learn the effeciancy of their new spell SS straight away.
    2. Disc scaled better with gear (surprise).
    3. Fights later on in the tier were extremly SS friendly, like made for Disc, with a 1 min burst timer.
    4. Rapture together with temporary spirit proccs got out of hand.
    5. Last but not least they overbuffed Disc like mad with 50% Aegis as a quick band aid.

    Screw the AoE timer on 1 min and you will see completly different numbers. I think since Discs were unhappy with their output at the start of MoP, they did tailor the fights for them in HoF mostly. Overall I do not like boss timers, it's unlikely for a boss to tell us exactly when he is going to strike next time, and for me it feels quite awkward to know in advance - put raid CD's up, and play that kind of game, but now it's a lil bit too worked in to all systems to have it like that. I also know many like to have it that way, especially having spells like Disc.

    Back to topic, I don't like crit based Aegis. I would rather have it 30% on PoH and make mana really matter for Disc to prevent pre shielding with PoH too much, and also put SS on a longer CD (not adjusted to all the raid mechanics in the world) and make it not absorb more than a normal healing rotation (but it's a weird way to take away Mastery from SS imo). I also wonder, did Penance really need a buff? Really? Atonement - isn't it pretty neat already? With the new Mastery and the buff to Penance I believe Discs will be a tad too good at dps-healing, and make Disc forced to dps a lot more, perhaps really only dps outside of SS/CD timers?

    Some of this stuffed is fixed for 5.2, great. The Binding Heal glyph looks cool, if they make it smart.

    I believe they could have gone a different way with Disc, I like the idea they want to buff real healing and tone down absorbs, but.... This feels very messy and half thought through?

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    I don't care how knowledgeable you believe you are, there is nothing intricate about disc. Atonement is the only thing keeping disc GCD locked at the moment, and that is neither compelling nor helpful gameplay. If anything, the extra raid dps hinders 10 mans. But by all means, if you have the magic cure to make disc viable then write GC a letter.
    Again you are wrong atonement on bubble spam fights is used for nothing but evangelism. You don't smite when the damage is low you build bubbles with aegis and maintain them and that is where the complexity arises and why you are GCD locked. If you don't understand that its no wonder that you can't see why disc is complex. If you don't believe me look at the top logs in 25 man and see the spell and cooldown usage. Smite is a decision since it can lower your HPS. In most cases you don't want to cast a single smite if possible. The extra dps does not hinder 10man, your arguments are becoming more and more absurd. 10man disc being OP is nearly as much due to the DPS/healing as absorbs. Atonement is not compelling but as to whether its helpful there is no question that it is. Atonement is a major power of 10man disc and it is the main reason why disc will still be mostly viable in 10mans after the patch.

    I made several posts but its always people like you that start saying things that are so obviously wrong, but stick to them tenaciously in the face of all available evidence that create the problem, because they send out a mixed message. You get way too much rubbish like: "if disc has absorbs it should be far behind all other healers" and "You can't balance absorbs just remove them" or worse "disc shouldn't be a healing spec".

    I think saying that people did not know how to use spirit shell from the start is wrong. Most ppl in top guilds played the beta and knew exactly how powerfull spirit shell is AND when it was best to use it. The problem was from the start that disc had too low throughput and blizzard made a series of buffs that were really ridiculous since they were all interacting. They buffed PoH by 25% and then allowed all +healing effects to affect spirit shell.... so the overall buff to spirit shell was about 50%. Then they also increased aegis to 50%, which allowed disc to gain nearly 30% more bubbling power. On top of that they also buffed rapture to 200%, without taking into account spirit inflation and temporary buffs and they reduced spell costs too.

    All of these buffs interacted with each other to make disc have throughput well above the median and the ability to stack extremely large absorb stacks. That is what makes it OP. Even in a fight with zero overheal disc throughput rivals that of resto shamans, holy priests and paladins. Only monks are clearly ahead atm. It is not difficult to see why they would be OP.

  5. #165
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Is there something wrong with you?

    All of my posts have been from a 10 man perspective, and yes, in 10s you use Atonement during low damage phases not only for the damage but for the smart heal. This is utilized early and often and the majority of the casting done in between SS. Sure, theres the occasional odd spell added in ther, but in ten mans the majority of your healing comes from SS, DA, PoH, and Atonement.

    And yes, the extra dps DOES hinder 10 mans because its presents an option not legitimately present to other healers, and one that is not as big of a deal as in 25s. It almost pigeon-holes 10 mans into having to make the decision on tight enrages whether or not to bring a Disc just as the .5 healer. The problem was present early on with heroic garajal and lei shi heroic, and it is something to consider on other fights. If you truly read what I wrote you'd understand what I meant by hindering. Disc is a problem in 10 mans because its too lucrative, just like SS was.

    I never said people didn't know how to use Spirit Shell, I'm saying that once the damage was done with the changes it became obvious they had screwed up and needed to make changes.

    25 man =/= 10 man. Disc is a problem in 10 man right now. I reiterate that I believe the Disc/Holy balance was best in the DS era, and am unsure that 5.2 is going to make things any better.
    Last edited by ramennoodleking; 2013-02-18 at 02:46 AM.

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  6. #166
    Fair enough on the 10 vs 25man.

    Disc/holy balance was indeed v good in the DS era, but that exactly because disc throughput was high enough to be competitive and absorbs could not easily be stacked very high. The same thing needs to happen now.

    Atonement is not fun, it should be a filler, not your main source of healing and it's healing should be capped, rather than scale with every damage buff.

    Monks in 5.2 will also have a stronger eminence, giving raids more options.

  7. #167
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    No, no other healer on the ptr has a weakness as significant as disc.
    No other healer has the strength that Disc has, either.

  8. #168
    This topic has become so stale over the course of 5.2 beta.

    People seem they are going to have views, and be very stern on them. Fair enough, I am stern on mine.


    At this point arguing over theory crafting is becoming nothing more then what has already been stated 20 different ways.



    How about we all stop arguing about who is right and wrong and start figuring out how disc can fully be utilized in 10 mans and 25 mans alike. This is just becoming too much of a "I know more then you do" fest and is going no where fast



    Personally, I don't see a TON of change happening for how they play with the exception of crit vs mastery builds.

    atonment becomes higher on the list of spells to cast, PoH becomes slightly better in a mastery build for throughput and spirit shell becomes normalized.


    I don't think the changes are going to be as damaging as some of you are making it out to be, I think disc will still perform fine. Will it be as easy? No, but welcome to other healers trying to compete with disc post 5.2.

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  9. #169
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    Fair enough on the 10 vs 25man.

    Disc/holy balance was indeed v good in the DS era, but that exactly because disc throughput was high enough to be competitive and absorbs could not easily be stacked very high. The same thing needs to happen now.

    Atonement is not fun, it should be a filler, not your main source of healing and it's healing should be capped, rather than scale with every damage buff.

    Monks in 5.2 will also have a stronger eminence, giving raids more options.
    I actually agree with this post, it's funny what can happen when we are on the same page. Atonement has problems and I think your solution might be a good one. I also think spirit shell as a mechanic in general should be redone, or turned into another 3 minute cooldown. As it is, even nerfed it still provides a more than healthy cushion in 10s.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 03:33 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    No other healer has the strength that Disc has, either.
    Amen. Absolutely true.

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  10. #170
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    For the record, I did not play Holy for 16/16H - I was also the only healing Priest in my previous guild. I did play Holy for Vizier (once it was "fixed/nerfed/whatever you want to call it"), Garalon (swapped between the 2, wound up as Holy), Tsulong, Sha, Stone Guard, Feng, Spirit Kings, Elegon and Will - 9/16H - never because it was required for me to play Disc, just because Disc had something that made those other fights trivial.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    never because it was required for me to play Disc, just because Disc had something that made those other fights trivial.
    THIS x999999999999999999

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    As the above poster showed, plenty of people in progression guilds were holy. So refuting the person he was quoting, I raided t11, a harder tier than firelands overall, as holy. HOLY. I cleared heroic Nef, chogall, and al akir as holy while they were current tier. An 8 minute divine hymn didn't hinder us despite being one of the only healers without a 3 minute CD.

    Next tier, I raided again as holy. Cleared all heroic content as holy too, with the exception of Majordomo.

    Then came DS, where again I was holy for every fight except Spine and Madness progression for atonement. But I turned around and recleared them as holy.

    Rewind to WotLk. Holy was also fine in ICC, though admittedly practically mandatory for H LK due to bubble spam elimanting the plague.

    Fast forward to MoP. Lo and behold, holy can also clear every fight as holy here too. But again, as with H LK, disc allowed guilds to completely ignore certain mechanics on top of supplying dps, which made them more attractive, particularly for progression. Does this speed up progression, especially in 10s? Yes. Which sucks, but is true. But a holy priest can easily still keep a raid alive in those fights, there's just less room for error/slacking.
    Which means there is no reason for a holy priest NOT to respec disc, unlike druids or monks who can't respec because its their only healing spec available. I know holy's throughput is actually pretty good, they aren't at the bottom and they have some outstanding burst AOE healing, but their lack of utility and the design of the fights (which seems at times was around disc priests) just give no logical reason to bring a holy priest. Disc priests have more utility, better regen, and can bring a big chunk of extra dps to beat enrage timer.

    So yes, holy is viable for progression, but is it recommended? hardly. Will guilds be mad at you if you refuse to respec? Most likely.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 07:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    Necessary? No. Expected? Yes. "Viable" means worth having. "Not viable" means DO NOT BRING, which clearly wasn't the case as proven by guilds using Holy Priests in Firelands. "The sky is falling" mentality gets old.

    And the majority of the people that play Pally/Druid/Shaman/Monk play them because they like those classes (or other reasons). If they don't play Holy Priest now, they won't play Holy Priest just because Disc is a new class; they'll still play Pally/Druid/Shaman/Monk.
    Many don't play holy because they were forced to respec disc. If holy was at a different class like shaman is, more who would originally play it won't be able to respec disc, its really simple logic.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 07:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    I did not raid as holy in the firelands. I was pretty much parked outside in favor of pretty much any other healer spec where possible after the first week. I didn't see more than 5-6 raids until the dragon soul came out in total. I didn't feel capable of healing the content, mana being the primary (and pretty much only) problem, and the ability to sustain the heavy single target healing needed for most of the bosses that followed. I didn't want to reroll disc (we already had one). And we had 3 paladins more than eager to take my raidspot. So they did. Firelands sucked for me.

    I know that there were people raiding successfully as holy in the firelands, examples given aplenty in this thread. But for me, I was very much "not viable". I ran oom, I failed to keep things alive, and I very much felt I didn't have the tools required. Of course, every time I speak about this trauma, someone always invariably calls me bad names. But let me be clear: firelands sucked for holy. For ME.

    Dragon Soul was pretty awesome after I got the gear. Pandaria is totally awesome as holy. Tier 11 was great as well. But the Firelands is a mental scar that will never go away. Apart from the insane set, the firelands raid faction is the only faction I have yet to go exhalted with. I just don't want to go back to that horrid place.

    So allow me to re-iterate this point. The firelands totally sucked for me. I was not alone in this. It was not a "l2p" issue, I very well know how to play holy. And I am not alone in feeling that it sucked, given how virtually all holypriests vanished within a week of its release. If it worked for you, great. But it took a very skilled raid group and healer to make holy viable in the firelands. If you didn't go into it with BiS gear, you certainly wasn't going to be able to handle it unless you went disc.

    But hey. Old trauma is old.
    I feel you there. FL, despite some holy priests performing there, was a nightmare for the spec. At times I felt utterly useless at this raid, I couldn't keep up with the mana, and all in all I felt too weak to cover raid damage.

  13. #173
    I was speccing OUT of Spirit as Holy in Firelands (and continued to do so in DS).

    Anecdotal data is anecdotal.

    And if Disc were a separate class, you would just see more rerolls, like I did in Cata when Shaman were weak and how I did in MoP when my guild and I figured that a Disc would be better for our raid than a Mistweaver.

  14. #174
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    The numbers of (disc)priests have gone up by a lot this expansion. At the start of it there was a balance of about 13-14% Disc and the same % Holy. Now there are almost the double amount of Discs playing 25hc's; 23%, 5% Holy. It seems mostly Druids were suffering from this and ofc rerolling Holypriests. Druids never been below 22-19% representation, but they did loose 5%-8% and are down to 14%.

    When it comes to Monk being a new class and all, it seems like they took a little bit of everything to represent; Druids, Paladin nr decreased by 3% aswell (from 26-27% to 23-24%), Priests total was actually at 30% (both Disc&Holy), but now down to 27 so 3% from Priests rerolled to. The only class staying ground is Shamans with keeping their 22% representation.

    You can draw many conclusion from these numbers, but one thing is for sure; Holy has never been this unrepresented ever, never ever. 7% was Firelands numbers for Holy. I thought that was rock bottom, and we were never going back there. But hey... It did get worse.

    I agree Holy IS viable, as I wrote somewhere else, they are really the masters of healing the right targets at the right time, with CoH, LW and PoM (Di, yumyum!!) being a large part of total healing together with EoL. I rarely find myself having PoH as nr 1 spell anymore, but that is mostly cause of 4pc bonus I admitt. Not many RL see this, they are looking too much at meters. Unsmart superpaddinmeterscushions like Pala Mastery and Disc absorbs are valuable to a certain point, but if you rely solely on this the risk is higher single ppl will start dying in 25's atleast. And the other way around applies ofc! We need a good mix.

    What I would have like to seen this tier for Holy is; Sanctuary buffed, Inspiration back, HoH guaranteed to work on caster, Chakra being about spellchoices (Serenity+Renew refresh vs Sanctuary) and not bonus to either AE or ST healing. The old Twist of Fate was awsome! I dislike they did remove both Inspiration and Twist for Holy, they were very nice mechanics. Shaman have tons of utility, and still able to buff the raids HP, wouldnt be more than fair for Holy to keep Inspiration in some form.

    The BH glyph this cold be valuable for Disc in particular, but they need to make it smart, really! I would rather see 30% Aegis on PoH (I dont like the unpredictable crit absorbs) but make mana matters to prevent all preshielding via PoH. I like they want us to use PWS more than for Rapture proccs wich I find very odd for a great lifesaving tools as it was meant to be in the first place, so GG reducing manacost(?) on that aswell. I wanted DI for Disc, the Holy way. Perhaps it will be more valuable with the PWB changes.

    Lot's of thoughts, didn't have time for PTR, but only some thoughts from me

    Edit, and sry if I repeat myself, I write in a hurry;P
    Last edited by nobodysbaby; 2013-02-18 at 10:28 AM.

  15. #175
    The new BH glyph seems smart to me. You select your target yourself, but the extra heal is smart and seems to have at least 20 yard range. I tested it a lot on 5mans where I can more easily see its effects. Do you mean that it should heal your target and two other targets rather than you, your target and another?

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    I don't think you have captured the problem. The main this is that PoH is now a really weak spell especially given its limitation. In fact its just a filler now. Glyphed binding heal, PoM and penance are all higher priorities when healing ANY damage including high raid wide damage. Basically if PoH makes a good chunk of your healing, disc will perform badly.

    Due to the buffs to atonement disc is now fairly strong at healing low level random damage through atonement and if the necessary conditions are fullfilled PoM and glyphed binding heal. The real crux comes anytime you have either long periods of strong raid damage, or any fight with a high HPS requirement. In a garalon style fight in 5.2 disc is going to be very very weak in 25man and relatively weak on 10man.

    So really low HPS fights with strong short occasional bursts disc is balanced. Moderate HPS fights of any sort disc is weak on 25man, but viable in 10man. High HPS fights of any sort disc is broken on 25man and weak on 10man.

    The exception is windlord style fights where most of the damage comes in short hard bursts on a timer that is convenient for spirit shell.
    Low PoH output (if true) and resultant low HPS on fights with raid-wide damage is an output problem, not a toolkit problem. Obviously still a problem, but it's distinct from the problem of disc having holes in its toolkit.

    And in response to someone else, the new BH glyph looks good but BH in general is limited by the fact that it only shines when you need healing.

  17. #177
    I don't see any reason what so ever to play holy. It shouldn't even be a spec. No one is doing 144khps as holy. Instead they are gimping the raid with sub par healing. You can be the best holy priest in the world and you would still be a better disc. 10x better to bring a different healer class to the raid then to have to bring a holy priest. They offer nothing but added difficulty to a fight.

  18. #178
    I don't see any reason what so ever to play holy. It shouldn't even be a spec. No one is doing 144khps as holy. Instead they are gimping the raid with sub par healing. You can be the best holy priest in the world and you would still be a better disc. 10x better to bring a different healer class to the raid then to have to bring a holy priest. They offer nothing but added difficulty to a fight.
    Using the same twisted logic I can say that disc is gimping the raid by sniping heals, but does not provide enough healing power when it really matters and you are 10x better to bring holy, which is stronger there. Your argument, is illogical and unsubstantiated and the only thing it does achieve is make everyone tripple /facepalm. Holy has excellent throughput useful CDs and great mobility. Disc sniping heals and achieving higher HPS does not make an appreciable difference to your raid in the majority of the current tier.

    Maleric: Ok fair enough I can see your point, but I dont think the toolkit problem is a very big issue. It's ok for disc to be weak at a particular style of healing, given that it has utility. For me the thorny point is throughput.

    Using this formula to calculate breakpoints: crit =(1+0.5*mastery)*(1+mastery)/(1.6*(1.5+mastery)) - 0.5/(1+mastery)

    And using the optimal crit/mastery of 18%/38.4%, for my current gear level fully raid buffed, then using my unbuffed int value (the buff won't affect the relationship) as PoH heals for 31152 base.

    As disc the formula is base*(1+0.5*mastery)*(1+crit*(1+mastery)), so 31152/2.5*(1+0.5*0.384)*(1+0.18*(1+0.384)) = 18554 HPS per target. The crit part is the absorbs so out of that HPS 20% is absorbs. That means PoH spam with my unbuffed int value does not even hit 100k HPS!!

    Using the same values as holy (24% mastery 18% crit) in blue chakra.

    base*(1+crit)*(1+mastery)*1.25 --> 31152/2.5*1.18*1.24*1.25 = 22 791 per target and 24% of that is the EoL HoT.

    Now consider that CoH is a slightly shorter CD than penance and when glyphed more healing per CD and that glyphed PoM for holy is MUCH stronger due to DI and especially considering that 2set PoM is nearly 2x the HPS of 5stack penance and on top of that that cascade/divine star is larger and that serendipity is a stronger boost than borrowed time and that you still have sanctuary for a stacked raid, while like it or not is an HPS increase and you can see that disc is just too far behind holy on raw throughput.

    Seriously though PoM for holy in blue chakra heals nearly as much as PoH does even though the tooltip spazzes out and reports completely the wrong value.

    ====================================================================================

    For me holy just needs 10s CD on chakras, sanctuary buffed, serenity giving a longer buff so you can keep it up all the time, smite chakra also increasing ST healing (gh, fh, bh, renew), divine star, CoH and PoM by 15%. The the spec will be very strong then.

    I think a lot of people don't quite realise just how much DPS holy can do right now. Its actually sick. I am destroying 480 geared (but obviously not very skilled) dps specs in heroics. Easily leaves disc in the dust. 100k SWPain, 50k smites and 29kx2 divine star is sick
    Last edited by Havoc12; 2013-02-18 at 04:05 PM.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Miko View Post
    I don't see any reason what so ever to play holy. It shouldn't even be a spec. No one is doing 144khps as holy. Instead they are gimping the raid with sub par healing. You can be the best holy priest in the world and you would still be a better disc. 10x better to bring a different healer class to the raid then to have to bring a holy priest. They offer nothing but added difficulty to a fight.
    And you shouldn't be a poster. Life has been cruel to both of us.

  20. #180
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    And I think that's the key here: necessary versus trivializing. As has been stated over and over, disc and holy bring two completely different mechanics. Sometimes discs mechanics have made it more lucrative, but it doesn't mean you would wipe without it. I know that when I've had to be at work (since I work 4 raid nights a month) my guild has still killed vizier without me, and we have no other priests.

    However, I think 10s are facing a unique issue with atonement. The more powerful that is the more it becomes possible for the added damage to swing the needle in favor of disc, because not only are you relieving pressure from healers, you are also eloping the dps. This is what concerns me most for 5.2, but I guess I'll just have to see it all fleshed out.
    Last edited by ramennoodleking; 2013-02-18 at 04:07 PM.

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