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  1. #321
    So, you still aren't going to respond to where my contradictions are? I guess that's because I haven't made any. That rapture should make the next PW:S free of cost is something that has been suggested (by, me among others) for a long time now.

  2. #322
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    If that's what you want to say you should probably say so instead of repeating something else over the course of three pages, don't you think? Instead you have been going on and on about extra secondary stats giving disc a balance advantage over holy (which is a very minor reason and not necessarily an issue) while claiming that I have said that it didn't (tip: this is not what I said).
    I did, you just skimmed over that part.

    Quoting my original post:

    "The only thing more difficult about holy is that unlike other healers, holy priests can oom very quickly even just using stock spells. It really is something to be said for the skill cap of holy: being able to keep up with healing and ending the fight right as you start to run on fumes."

    To run a holy priest picture perfect (vs a disc priest), you have factor in two things:
    1.) What spells must I choose, and what Chakra must I be in, to maintain my mana throughout the encounter?
    2.) How can I pump out the necessary healing while being handicapped by excess spirit?

    Lets take a look at a real life example:

    If I'm single target healing, say, phase one of heroic protectors, how long do I stay in Serenity before making the switch to Sanctuary? This is huge, because there is a tipping point where rolling renews will not be enough, but you are handicapped by 25% more inefficient PoHs and CoHs while in Serenity. However, once you switch to Sanctuary, now your Greaters suck wet ass and your renews become ineffective. If played improperly, you can be stuck in a chakra that is forcing you to spend more mana than you theoretically should, whether its single target or not. The delicate balance is found by learning how best to manage your 30 second intervals on a fight like this, and choosing swaths of encounter time to devote to a particular chakra.

    Choose wrong and even if you stack spirit, you'll be on the wrong side of the mana bar.

    Disc, on the other hand, can afford to make simple mana mistakes, and is penalized very little for them. The fact that holy has to watch its mana so closely is testament to the skill cap, because it all boils down to spell choice. Further, because holy is behind on crit chance, mastery, and haste, we lose out on valuable throughput that actually decreases mana use over the long haul. 3-4k secondary stats is actually quite a bit. Because we are left with this handicap, we have to squeeze every last ounce of our healing into ideal spell selection.



    1.) Do you also need to play more wisely and manage mana more as holy if you use 0 spirit as disc and 20k as holy? Obviously not. You gear until you have the mana to do your job, and then you go for throughput stats. If you have no or insignificant mana issues as disc that means that you went for too much mana, simple enough? That you chose to play the spec with a bigger margin of error doesn't say anything about the skill required to play said spec.
    Larger margin of error also equates to larger potential, which holy has. A larger margin of error means its harder to play since its easier to mess up. Gosh, I'm so glad you said that, I'm startin to think you understand now.

    2.) Do you know what skillcap means? That's about how hard it is to play a spec picture perfectly, that you suffer more from screwing up as holy is irrelevant regarding this (not that you do assuming that you use significantly less spirit as disc), since screwing up means that you weren't playing at the skillcap in the first place.
    This is one for the ages. Translation of what you said: Skillcap means how hard it is to play a spec properly, but the fact that it is harder to play holy properly doesn't mean holy has a high skill cap.

    What?

    It's ok Cookie, you are still probably better than most priests out there. Take your lumps in stride, big boy.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
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  3. #323
    Factoring in the cost of PW:S a disc with 10k spirit doesn't have way more regen than a holy with 13k spirit factoring in PW:S cost
    Because rapture only procs off normal spirit, and not any short term procs currently right?

    and the fact of the matter is that a disc with 10k mana doesn't have a much easier time managing their mana than a holy with 13k
    Again, short term spirit procs.




    You still don't think a disc priest running 9k mana, getting 60k rapture procs isn't OP?


    Wake up, rapture is an insane regen tool that holy does not have. You can't say its a small regen tool, you can't say it's a decent regen tool.


    It's a REDICULOUS regen tool this tier yet you continue to say how you don't think it's rediculous at all. Then go to say, how holy has equal regen even if disc reforges out of spirit.


    News flash, Disc even with 9k Still gets bonus raptures from trinkets/chants/totems. So yes, disc this tier has had nearly DOUBLE at times TRIPLE the regen tools holy has.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 04:14 AM ----------

    If a disc priest got 10k mana back PAST THE COST OF PW:S from 5 raptures. and got 50k back from two of them


    Thats 150k mana that no holy priest could come up with even if they sacrificed their soul to the wow gods.


    In a normal raid, disc is getting on average, 30k rapture procs.


    Please tell me how holy can gain that kind of mana back even with 13k spirit against a disc priest with 9k.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  4. #324
    Field Marshal Leelloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulleimagen View Post
    Ofc it is, but in the end its the healing done who counts...

    So the thread is open again!
    I assume u ment its Healing done that counts?

    Wrong wrong wrong, if your judging a healer by the meters ur doing it wrong.

  5. #325
    Yes, you could argue that chakra requires so much skill to use properly that it gives holy a higher skillcap, would've been nice if you mentioned that this was what you were talking about, ever, without rambling on about spirit?

    "The only thing more difficult about holy is that unlike other healers, holy priests can oom very quickly even just using stock spells. It really is something to be said for the skill cap of holy: being able to keep up with healing and ending the fight right as you start to run on fumes."
    Yes, and gearing a disc you should aim to end the fight just as you run out of mana as well. The only thing half a mana bar left when the fight is finished means is that either your raid played way better than usual or you are using way too much spirit.

    Spell usage is what determines how quick you lose mana for both specs, in addition both specs have one additional mechanic each that you need to pay attention to (rapture & chakra).

    Larger margin of error also equates to larger potential, which holy has. A larger margin of error means its harder to play since its easier to mess up. Gosh, I'm so glad you said that, I'm startin to think you understand now.
    Let me clarify this part, you missunderstood me (and admittedly I wasn't being crystal, though I have said this 10 times before). To rephrase what you quoted from me: If you chose to play discipline with more spirit than you absolutely require you have a bigger margin of error. If you play disc with just enough regen OR holy with just enough regen neither is more difficult.

    This is one for the ages. Translation of what you said: Skillcap means how hard it is to play a spec properly, but the fact that it is harder to play holy properly doesn't mean holy has a high skill cap.
    No, that's not what skillcap means. Skillcap is if you play a spec to complete perfection, without a single flaw. I found this description on my first google hit which demonstrates the meaning quite well: "Well, skill cap is the limit or "cap" in which you cannot exceed because there is nothing more to exceed."

  6. #326
    Cookie... cookie...cookie....



    Holy Priest, we base everything we do these days around chakra. You should have known from the start that what chakra you are in is going to affect what you cast, which then effects your mana pool.


    Casting gheal in sanctuary, you will have to cast more of them to achieve the same effect as in serenity.



    Things every holy priest should know before playing the spec, I guess I just assumed since you knew the spec so well that this was a basic concept.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 04:23 AM ----------

    Yes, and gearing a disc you should aim to end the fight just as you run out of mana as well.

    And what happens when you are progressing and mistakes happen? What if you can't make up for the mistakes because you forged out of too much spirit and couldn't get that last PW:S off to keep the tank alive 5 more seconds before he turns around and cleaves the entire raid at .05%.


    You gear your regen as a healer, to have enough mana to make up for mistakes. Not to end a fight with 0, progression fights... how many world first kills have you seen where there are literally 1-2 people left standing, or half the raid is dead.


    I assure you they didn't get to that point because the healers gemmed into just enough regen to end the fight with 0, I guarantee you the healers gemmed enough regen to be able to sustain an intense fight and push past mistakes.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  7. #327
    Because rapture only procs off normal spirit, and not any short term procs currently right?
    Except that this stays true even if you factor in temporary mana procs, yes I did calculate that as well.

    You still don't think a disc priest running 9k mana, getting 60k rapture procs isn't OP?
    Without a shaman getting 60k rapture proc with 9k spirit is impossible, I have never said that I think that this should double dip from mana tide, that's an incredibly stupid mechanic but I hardly think that you should assume that every 10 man raid has a resto shaman (2 healers is the normal amount, and shamans aren't particulary strong in 10s, so this is not the most common scenario). If your point is that disc has retarded regen at a low spirit amount with a resto shaman I agree entirely.

    Wake up, rapture is an insane regen tool that holy does not have. You can't say its a small regen tool, you can't say it's a decent regen tool.

    It's a REDICULOUS regen tool this tier yet you continue to say how you don't think it's rediculous at all. Then go to say, how holy has equal regen even if disc reforges out of spirit.
    A disc with 10k spirit, who isn't using tailoring (poor throughput profession) nor raiding with a shaman, but is using the spirit of the sun trinket, ends up at slightly less regen than a holy with 13k spirit (factoring in the full mana cost of PW:S). I can math it for you if you want. It's a great ability, but if you are at a low spirit amount without a specific raid setup it won't end up giving you 'that much' mana after it's paid for the PW:S.

    News flash, Disc even with 9k Still gets bonus raptures from trinkets/chants/totems. So yes, disc this tier has had nearly DOUBLE at times TRIPLE the regen tools holy has.
    Since rapture is one regen tool, holy has two, disc has three. So by regen tools I assume you mean regen? No, disc can't in any realistic circumstances (=not raiding with 1 disc and 9 resto shaman) gain even close to tripple the amount that holy gets. Are you going to stop with the fantasy numbers anytime soon?

    If a disc priest got 10k mana back PAST THE COST OF PW:S from 5 raptures. and got 50k back from two of them
    Which is great, 50k mana in a bit over a minute isn't bad at all (pretty much equal to mindbender). Not happening with 9k spirit though (again, unless you stack shamans).

    In a normal raid, disc is getting on average, 30k rapture procs.

    Please tell me how holy can gain that kind of mana back even with 13k spirit against a disc priest with 9k.
    Again, not with 9k spirit unless you have resto shamans.

    -------

    Cookie... cookie...cookie....

    Holy Priest, we base everything we do these days around chakra. You should have known from the start that what chakra you are in is going to affect what you cast, which then effects your mana pool.

    Casting gheal in sanctuary, you will have to cast more of them to achieve the same effect as in serenity.

    Things every holy priest should know before playing the spec, I guess I just assumed since you knew the spec so well that this was a basic concept.
    Exactly what are you talking about? I know exactly what chakra does and nothing you wrote here is a response or based on anything I've written. At least try to make some sense.

    And what happens when you are progressing and mistakes happen? What if you can't make up for the mistakes because you forged out of too much spirit and couldn't get that last PW:S off to keep the tank alive 5 more seconds before he turns around and cleaves the entire raid at .05%.

    You gear your regen as a healer, to have enough mana to make up for mistakes. Not to end a fight with 0, progression fights... how many world first kills have you seen where there are literally 1-2 people left standing, or half the raid is dead.

    I assure you they didn't get to that point because the healers gemmed into just enough regen to end the fight with 0, I guarantee you the healers gemmed enough regen to be able to sustain an intense fight and push past mistakes.
    and the only spec that does this is disc? No, every spec (including holy) does this, doesn't change anything.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-02-23 at 04:41 AM.

  8. #328
    Again, not with 9k spirit unless you have resto shamans.
    .... Are you using relic of chi? I guarantee your raptures are pretty close to 25K on average if you are, if you have spirits of the sun. I can guarantee your averages are even higher.

    If you have a resto shaman.......you get the point

    Which is great, 50k mana in a bit over a minute isn't bad at all. Not happening with 9k spirit though (again, unless you stack shamans).
    I bet you are one of those disc priests that run with DPS trinkets if you honestly think your raptures arent on average 25k.



    Since rapture is one regen tool, holy has two, disc has three. So by regen tools I assume you mean regen? No, disc can't in any realistic circumstances (=not raiding with 1 disc and 9 resto shaman) gain even close to tripple the amount that holy has.
    ..... You have never, in your wow career in 5.1 seen yourself get a 70k rapture proc? let alone a 30k-50k? I wouldn't believe it even if you could prove it.

    Holy has two sources of regen? I don't count passive spirit as one, because every healer has it. Disc has two, holy has one. One of which, triples any passive regen on average.


    50k in over a minute? I am talking about potentially 100k in 30 seconds.


    50k from ONE rapture.. not 4-5...

    A disc with 10k spirit, who isn't using tailoring (poor throughput profession) nor raiding with a shaman, but is using the spirit of the sun trinket, ends up at slightly less regen than a holy with 13k spirit (factoring in the full mana cost of PW:S). I can math it for you if you want. It's a great ability, but if you are at a low spirit amount without a specific raid setup it won't end up giving you 'that much' mana after it's paid for the PW:S.

    What is your second trinket? Let's discuss rapture + relic of chi + spirits.

    You aren't convincing anyone yet.



    Without a shaman getting 60k rapture proc with 9k spirit is impossible, I have never said that I think that this should double dip from mana tide, that's an incredibly stupid mechanic but I hardly think that you should assume that every 10 man raid has a resto shaman (2 healers is the normal amount, so this is not the most common scenario).
    Without a shaman yes, achieving a 40k rapture without a shaman, is not however.

    Mana holy could never in their wildest dreams bring from the nether realm.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  9. #329
    Are you using relic of chi? I guarantee your raptures are pretty close to 25K on average if you are, if you have spirits of the sun. I can guarantee your averages are even higher.
    I was just calculating it with spirit of the sun and qin-xi hc (been trying it out a bit lately to see how much I value the proc, if it's superior to relic after 5.2 or even now depends on how you value the proc), however the result with both regen trinkets isn't 'that' different. With 9k spirit, relic & spirits you end up with just above 22k raptures on average.

    I bet you are one of those disc priests that run with DPS trinkets if you honestly think your raptures arent on average 25k.
    It's very basic math (if you want I can show it to you) and the average amount with 9k spirit (even with two regen trinkets) isn't 25k.

    You have never, in your wow career in 5.1 seen yourself get a 70k rapture proc? let alone a 30k-50k? I wouldn't believe it even if you could prove it.
    I never raid with resto shamans, so I doubt it, but either way even if you somehow manage to get a 70k rapture proc discs total regen (over a fight) won't be even close to three times holys.

    Holy has two sources of regen? I don't count passive spirit as one, because every healer has it. Disc has two, holy has one. One of which, triples any passive regen on average.
    I was talking about regen tools, so no I didn't factor in passive spirit either. I was refering to mindbender and hymn, which is present for both specs. Rapture doesn't tripple passive regen. That hymn is a worse regen tool than mindbender doesn't change the fact that it is a tool.

    50k in over a minute? I am talking about potentially 100k in 30 seconds.

    50k from ONE rapture.. not 4-5...
    In any realistic scenario without shamans, no.

    What is your second trinket? Let's discuss rapture + relic of chi + spirits.

    You aren't convincing anyone yet.
    As stated I was calculating with qin's and spirits, I've done the math for relic instead of qin's above (normally would that mean that I'd go down to 8k spirit passively as well though, but no I assumed 9k spirit passive and both relic and spirits)

    Without a shaman yes, achieving a 40k rapture without a shaman, is not however.
    If you use tailoring, relic and spirits it's theoretically possible to get one 40k rapture with 9k spirit, this will be extremly rare and the average will be way lower.


    I don't think that rapture is a fine or a good design right now, it makes disc scale way too well with spirit, but with very low amounts of spirit it doesn't give much more than the PW:S you paid with cost you.

  10. #330
    Well, your trinket choices change things.


    Although, I don't know if HC WoTE trinket for disc is worth it IMO. I think I would only use that as holy.

    5.2 Disc Priest Guide | Retired(Playing Aion)

  11. #331
    Well, your trinket choices change things.

    Although, I don't know if HC WoTE trinket for disc is worth it IMO. I think I would only use that as holy.
    As stated every single calculation in my previous post is made assuming that I'm using spirits+relic.

    I'm off to bed, gn.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-02-23 at 05:34 AM.

  12. #332
    Holy must play better to stay on par with disc. You have to know what to cast and when to cast it just to be able to pull the numbers disc does while fighting mana much more.
    I believe in this phrase rests the issue.
    You think that balanced skillcap means both speccs should produce same numbers at equal skill. You dont take into consideration the differences between the 2 speccs, that are as big as between 2 difference classes. It doesn't work like that. It would be ludicrous to ask the best holy priest in the world to produce the same numbers now as the best disc in the world, simply because the speccs are unbalanced. Yes, if you compare a disc priest doing 100k hps with a holy priest doing 100k hps the holy priest is prolly more skilled than the disc one, simply because the specc is weaker. But it doesn't say anything about the skill cap of either of the speccs, because while the 100k hps holy priest might be the best in the world with that number, the disc one is nowhere close to a top ranking. In order to have a correct skill comparison you cant measure numbers from 2 different speccs. The better way to see it atm would be how hard is for a disc priest to obtain 130k hps versus a holy one obtaining 100k, because you can be insanely skilled as holy, right now, you want have a chance against an equally skilled disc priest.

    Take next week when disc gets few notches down and you will have the same disc priest that was doing 130k doing only 100k. Did his skill change? No.

    Right now, if you produce 100k hps as holy you get a rank and a GG. If you produce same as disc, you're prolly underperforming and get told you should do more. Ppl have different expectations from you. You need to compare a disc priest doing 130k vs a holy one doing 100k to compare equal difficulty. The fact that your specc has a bigger hammer doesn't mean your specc is easier, it just means the stakes are higher.

    @Drena - Thankies for those numbers, I looked everywhere I could think of for some hints O.o. Do you know how we stand compared to other classes than paladins? Given the various tiers experience, I'm wary of comparing myself to the fotm.

  13. #333
    @Drena - Thankies for those numbers, I looked everywhere I could think of for some hints O.o. Do you know how we stand compared to other classes than paladins? Given the various tiers experience, I'm wary of comparing myself to the fotm.
    Had a discussion about that over here: http://www.howtopriest.com/viewtopic...=3013&start=20 . Admittedly this is just our potential output (PoH is very prone to overhealing, no cds are factored in and the rotations could be adjusted a bit) but at least you get some ballpark numbers.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-02-23 at 12:52 PM.

  14. #334
    Thankies for the link!

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Blachshma View Post
    True, but reactive is hardly passive.
    Which is why I said it was the better word

  16. #336
    Been playing since vanilla, GL of a top 200 US 25m raid guild.

    I enjoy holy, have played holy since vanilla, though certain tiers when disc has been overpowered (end of Wrathe, certain fights in Firelands, and heroics this tier), I've felt guilty NOT being disc. As tiers go on, I find it harder and harder to maintain both specs because speaking generally holy prefers haste, disc prefers mastery.

    With the changes to Disc coming in 5.2, I think that disc will be again on the same "level" as holy or rather on the same level as any other healing spec. So I plan on going holy again this tier and hopefully for the rest of the expansion, but I still plan on having a disc spec for those fights, particularly heroics where the raw mitigation of disc is important to survive burst damage.

    My question is, what will really be the recommended spirit in this tier 12k? 13K? I'm sure with the amount of stats we're getting approaching 530+ iLevel, we'll have more spirit than we could possibly need and start looking more and more into int and haste into mastery. I think this will be the point in the tier where the stats on the gear is enough for spirit and we'll want to gem at least INT, INT/SPI, and INT/Haste or INT/Mastery gems. I really didn't have much mana problems as holy once I hit 11k or so mana this tier, so if I can maintain 12k, I'm sure that will be more than enough.

    Opinions?
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  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Had a discussion about that over here: http://www.howtopriest.com/viewtopic...=3013&start=20 . Admittedly this is just our potential output (PoH is very prone to overhealing, no cds are factored in and the rotations could be adjusted a bit) but at least you get some ballpark numbers.
    These calculations are ridiculous sorry, the poster ignored cooldowns, which can be upwards of 20% of total healing for other classes. 130k is possible before overheal for disc with proper cooldown usage and upwards of 38k spellpower, but at these values we are looking at every other class being well above 150k and druids are 150k odd taking the 10% buff into account.

    Disc right now has a higher mana regen than holy. Much more, especially if you chain rapture with proc spirit. Disc has a higher mana drain but the return is disproportional.

  18. #338
    Dreadlord Outofmana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Livistos View Post

    My question is, what will really be the recommended spirit in this tier 12k? 13K? I'm sure with the amount of stats we're getting approaching 530+ iLevel, we'll have more spirit than we could possibly need and start looking more and more into int and haste into mastery.
    From what I can see so far on the PTR, it seems like they are putting less and less spirit on items. Sometimes the 522 items have even less spirit than the 496 ones. I don't think we will have that much more spirit.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Havoc12 View Post
    These calculations are ridiculous sorry, the poster ignored cooldowns, which can be upwards of 20% of total healing for other classes. 130k is possible before overheal for disc with proper cooldown usage and upwards of 38k spellpower, but at these values we are looking at every other class being well above 150k and druids are 150k odd taking the 10% buff into account.
    As stated the discussion was excluding major cds and just the consistent hps output.

  20. #340
    Those cooldowns are much bigger for druids and shamans, than the respective CDs for disc and paladins. He also ignored secondary CDs which are completely game changing for druids and shamans.

    The values are not so far off for palas and disc but they are waaaay off what we see in real terms for druids and shamans. Druids hit 120k HPS with a lot of overheal with the kind of gear needed for disc to get 130k HPS and shamans easily hit 140k again with massive overheal. Its just wrong.

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