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  1. #781
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    I'd say use the VP trinket + the TF talisman of boodlust, it gives more agi than the bottle and should give more stats.
    Even if VP puts me 1k over hit cap?

  2. #782
    I'm little bit confused. Talisman has higher avarge agility then both Bad Juju and Rentaki and has RPPM boosting our (according to many hunters) the most valuable secondary stat, yet, on femaledwarf (which is also backed up by consensus among hunter community) it sims lower then both trinkets (Juju and Rentaki). Why?

  3. #783
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsoni View Post
    I'm little bit confused. Talisman has higher avarge agility then both Bad Juju and Rentaki and has RPPM boosting our (according to many hunters) the most valuable secondary stat, yet, on femaledwarf (which is also backed up by consensus among hunter community) it sims lower then both trinkets (Juju and Rentaki). Why?
    haste buffs don't count for the rppm calculations, only the haste you have in your gear, meaning that haste buff doesn't help in our rppm trinkets/tier set procs.
    I prefer having an agi proc based trinket, because having 8k+ /16k+ agility at the start of a fight is ridiculous(in a good way).

  4. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by WarBringerPT View Post
    Haste buffs don't count for the rppm calculations, only the haste you have in your gear, meaning that haste buff doesn't help in our rppm trinkets/tier set procs.
    I prefer having an agi proc based trinket, because having 8k+ /16k+ agility at the start of a fight is ridiculous(in a good way).
    This is new to me, care to provide some source for it, or possible discussion on these/other forum(s).

  5. #785
    http://www.wowhuntershall.com/2013/0...a-gem-numbers/

    This is also why I belive stacking haste over mastery showing DPS increas in this tier is because we got harder hitting weapons, not RPPM. For instance, to get additional proc from Bad Juju on a 10 min fight, you would need almost 20% haste from your gear.

  6. #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsoni View Post
    http://www.wowhuntershall.com/2013/0...a-gem-numbers/

    This is also why I belive stacking haste over mastery showing DPS increas in this tier is because we got harder hitting weapons, not RPPM. For instance, to get additional proc from Bad Juju on a 10 min fight, you would need almost 20% haste from your gear.
    Yes, let's cherry pick the RPPM trinket that has the lowest RPPM rate.

    Why not pick on the Hunter 4 Set which has an RPPM of 3 or the meta gem which has an RPPM of 21?

    Also, the value of haste when it comes to RPPM calculations was pretty much put to rest when I released my spreadsheet some-odd weeks ago. It is a very real and definite benefit.

  7. #787
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbai View Post
    This is new to me, care to provide some source for it, or possible discussion on these/other forum(s).
    Guess i remembered it wrong, or flat out understood it wrong. "True haste boosts, such as Bloodlust or haste rating on gear will improve proc rate. We felt this change was necessary to balance proc rates among different specs."
    Problably read that diagonally and only saw "haste rating from gear".
    Regardless, it is a proc that is hard to maintain, even after the proc buff. It's not a BiS trinket, but if you don't have 1 of the BiS, it's a good trinket to use until they drop (used mine with bottle hc till i had renataki hc(replacing bottle), then replaced talisman for bad juju hc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    Yes, let's cherry pick the RPPM trinket that has the lowest RPPM rate.

    Also, the value of haste when it comes to RPPM calculations was pretty much put to rest when I released my spreadsheet some-odd weeks ago. It is a very real and definite benefit.
    Care linking that?

  8. #788

  9. #789
    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    Yes, let's cherry pick the RPPM trinket that has the lowest RPPM rate.
    Because most people on this forum go - "OMG, I reforged extra 3% into haste and my uptime went from 16% to 40%"
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be Nooska #2, I'm just trying to get my head around why haste is taking ahead of mastery. After all, Blizzard didn't just role a dice and said - "Seems like haste and crit for this tier!"

    Yes, you did made great spreadsheet and, as someone with background in math, your pdf did clear a thing ot two, but also it's not really what I'm trying to figure out. E.g. on your sheet, if I increase my haste from 0 to 4%, I'll get 10% avg stats, while we both know, out in the field I'll most likely to get none.

    In short, the things which I'm trying to figure out are - is there any haste plateau(s) which we should aim in this tier (having Bad Juju / Rentaki / 2p / 4p /meta in mind). How is Bloodlust interacting with RPPM? How is haste (and RPPM) going to scale with the strength of the raid (e.g. fight which use to be 11 and half minute long two months ago is now over after 8 minutes)?
    Last edited by Tsoni; 2013-04-08 at 08:35 PM.

  10. #790
    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    Even if VP puts me 1k over hit cap?
    I thought you said you'd only be 200 over the cap with the vp trinket. I'd probably go with the bottle and the talisman of bloodlust then if you are losing that much hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarBringerPT View Post
    haste buffs don't count for the rppm calculations, only the haste you have in your gear, meaning that haste buff doesn't help in our rppm trinkets/tier set procs.
    I prefer having an agi proc based trinket, because having 8k+ /16k+ agility at the start of a fight is ridiculous(in a good way).
    This is wrong. Anything that has to do with haste (hero, rapid fire, etc. etc.) contributes to your real ppm rate and anything that has to do with attack speed doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsoni View Post
    Because most people on this forum go - "OMG, I reforged extra 3% into haste and my uptime went from 16% to 40%"
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be Nooska #2, I'm just trying to get my head around why haste is taking ahead of mastery. After all, Blizzard didn't just role a dice and said - "Seems like haste and crit for this tier!"

    Yes, you did made great spreadsheet and, as someone with background in math, your pdf did clear a thing ot two, but also it's not really what I'm trying to figure out. E.g. on your sheet, if I increase my haste from 0 to 4%, I'll get 10% avg stats, while we both know, out in the field I'll most likely to get none.

    In short, the things which I'm trying to figure out are - is there any haste plateau(s) which we should aim in this tier (having Bad Juju / Rentaki / 2p / 4p /meta in mind). How is Bloodlust interacting with RPPM? How is haste (and RPPM) going to scale with the strength of the raid (e.g. fight which use to be 11 and half minute long two months ago is now over after 8 minutes)?
    Everything is linear with Real PPM. 1% haste increases the proc rate by 1%. There aren't any haste plateaus in that regard, but since it's linear you should get a higher uptime if you go haste > mastery. The talisman of bloodlust is interacting with it the same way any other haste buff would interact with it.
    Last edited by Tehstool; 2013-04-08 at 09:40 PM.

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  11. #791
    For anyone who's curious about the haste benefit of Talisman of Bloodlust, I ran a series of simc reports, using the T15N gearset but adjusting the haste at 1k increments for all 3 specs, for normal talisman, LFR and heroic thunderforged. This gives a fairly good idea of what the expected uptime and haste benefits might look like from the trinket at various haste levels (which is more difficult than most to model as it affects its own proc rate).

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...2c&output=html

  12. #792
    Just one question. I know in multiple ocasions ppl asked to compare rune of reorigination and VP trinket and they got same answer, rune fucks up rotation, its messy and VP trinket should be the best choice. That is if you use usual plateau crit>mastery>haste or crit>haste>mastery. But my question is, since some ppl are going for haste>crit>masteri cos of new RPPM stuff, if we prioritize Haste over Crit, and we get haste proc from rune, is it still worse then VP one cos logicaly with those haste proc we will get more trinket / set bonus procs ?

  13. #793
    Not really, sure you are attacking faster, but more crit and mastery will just negate the extra attacks you get (to an extent of course). If you get lucky with that you get more stats, but if you get lucky with renataki's or bad juju you get more agi. If you use it over one of those you are essentially trading agi for stats.

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  14. #794
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    The thing with going haste>crit is that you will literally zero your crit during a proc except for the 5% crit chance buff from AI/LotP/wolf buff, since there's no short term crit buffs from any of our talents or abilities, outside of Careful Aim in MM.

    I don't envy the idea of a 5% crit chance even with a huge haste bonus. The one benefit of haste (outside of autoshot damage, which would shoot up in a haste>crit trinket proc) is the focus regen, both passive and from faster CoS. But I imagine that during these procs CoS might very well be "wasting" haste by being GCD-locked at 1s, and you run a higher risk of focus capping, especially if you're trying to "fit in" lots of cobras to make use of the proc. Unmathed opinion, but that's just my gut feeling.

  15. #795
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    The thing with going haste>crit is that you will literally zero your crit during a proc except for the 5% crit chance buff from AI/LotP/wolf buff, since there's no short term crit buffs from any of our talents or abilities, outside of Careful Aim in MM.

    I don't envy the idea of a 5% crit chance even with a huge haste bonus. The one benefit of haste (outside of autoshot damage, which would shoot up in a haste>crit trinket proc) is the focus regen, both passive and from faster CoS. But I imagine that during these procs CoS might very well be "wasting" haste by being GCD-locked at 1s, and you run a higher risk of focus capping, especially if you're trying to "fit in" lots of cobras to make use of the proc. Unmathed opinion, but that's just my gut feeling.
    That's exactly how I feel about it as well. I have no doubts about haste being better than crit in single target situations but at the end of the day we are talking about increasing the uptimes on very random trinkets and things which may or may not even proc. Crit is guaranteed damage and so is mastery, haste is something that can potentially be wasted with latency, some cases of downtime (which I don't think there are this tier) or RNG if we are talking about the RPPM stuff. The moment I get an RPPM trinket I will be messing around with multiple forms of haste builds but I don't have a good feeling about this. That, and most fights are multi-target fights this tier which don't benefit as much from haste as they do with crit/mastery. All in all haste seems very situational. When I'm progressing on a new fight I want to do consistently well, not do ''meh'' the one attempt and really good the other.

    Then again, I don't have an RPPM trinket. While I did some math and simming and while I can read the results, it just doesn't quite feel right.

    Next stop is the legendary meta gem. I know it's a big single target increase but... again, not many pure single target fights this tier. But that's a discussion for a different time.
    Last edited by Bovan; 2013-04-09 at 08:57 AM.
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  16. #796
    Btw how are LFR juju and renataki's compared to the vp trinket and bottle 2/2 hc ?

  17. #797
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    The thing with going haste>crit is that you will literally zero your crit during a proc except for the 5% crit chance buff from AI/LotP/wolf buff, since there's no short term crit buffs from any of our talents or abilities, outside of Careful Aim in MM.

    I don't envy the idea of a 5% crit chance even with a huge haste bonus.
    You'll zero your crit from... crit rating, yes. Agi still gives you crit chance. Nearly half of my base crit chance, after a brief look at my armory.

    You should still have at least 15-20% crit after your crit rating goes to 0. You also have some baseline mastery that wouldn't go away, not that it matters.

    I'm not arguing for RoO, I still agree that it isn't really worth using.

  18. #798
    Can someone help me with a trinket decision?

    I'm using VP trinket and don't know which one i should use as second:

    -Relic 2/2
    -Terror HC 2/2
    -LFR Bad Juju

    (not very lucky with trinket dropps :<)

  19. #799
    Quote Originally Posted by jceee View Post
    Can someone help me with a trinket decision?

    I'm using VP trinket and don't know which one i should use as second:

    -Relic 2/2
    -Terror HC 2/2
    -LFR Bad Juju

    (not very lucky with trinket dropps :<)
    Definitely make use of JuJu (will we ever call it BJ?) and I believe xuen 2/2 beats HC terror but ii don't know about that. I've only recently (as you can see) gotten into my hunter but I have read every post and continue reading every new post in this thread, and this should be your answer.

  20. #800
    Quote Originally Posted by aHeeRo View Post
    Envy hasn't released their logs, but you can see in their Iron Qon kill video that Dela is using it. So i was curious
    I was trying it out for a bit on bosses where it didn't matter too much.

    Back to using Bottle/TiTM on Lei Shen. (Overcapped hit)

    Trinkets have not been kind to me so far
    Last edited by Dela2k10; 2013-04-09 at 02:41 PM.
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