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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    Crit is a terminating stat.
    If you never reach the cap, having it doesn't affect the value of stat. Imagine, if we couldn't have more than 100% mastery. Would it change mastery's value? No, because we never have 100% mastery anyway. (P.S. Mastery has hard cap for MM, but it's just that high). Same with haste, if we couldn't have more than 100% haste it wouldn't matter cause we don't anyway.
    The only reason for crit to get weaker on high numbers is because we have some static crit buffs to some skills, like Spiked Collar or Cobra Strikes.
    Other than that, 1% crit gives you ~~1% of "critless" dps gain - doesn't matter if you go from 25 or from 55, as long as it's not 95.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    Now you're not even making sense. Nothing "lowers" the value of haste. Haste is worth what it's worth, period.
    After you reach certain breakpoint, haste will only raise your auto-shot rate and passive focus regen - until you reach next one. It won't do anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    15k haste would be possible with this trinket, which would make it good, which is what I've been saying for 4 posts now.
    Well, yes, you can reach it but you can't maintain it, which makes it too random.
    Old Gods made me do it.

  2. #102
    @nemesis: all stats funtion that way, also haste!
    The more you have, the less value the same amount of haste gives you.
    Because of this effect, it is often beneficial to distribute your secondstats.
    But that happens enough naturally through gear

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrueM4gg0t View Post
    @nemesis: all stats funtion that way, also haste!
    The more you have, the less value the same amount of haste gives you.
    Because of this effect, it is often beneficial to distribute your secondstats.
    But that happens enough naturally through gear
    no you are wrong, 1% haste increases our damage by the same percentage regardless if you have 2% haste or 80% haste, crit does not increase our damage by the same amount at 2% and at 80%.

  4. #104
    I'm with Nemesis003 here. 1% crit has the value of 1% crit when you don't have any, it holds close to no value when you already have 99% crit. You could argue that you have the same chance to crit when you have 1% crit compared to having a chance not to crit at 99% but that's not how it works. Crits value keeps dropping the more you get.

    1% haste however always equals 1% haste until you are at the maximum number this game allows. Haste gains more value closer to certain breakpoints but drops back to it's normal value after the breakpoint. Haste and mastery scales linearly as in they always add the same amount of DPS. Crit loses value the more you get and is worth nothing at 100% (or 104.7% technically, if I'm not mistaken).

    English is not my main language and it's difficult to explain the math in my head in a different language, but this might clear up something.
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  5. #105
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...=sharing#gid=0

    This is a very basic example, but they scale the same way, all other things equal. Relative to total DPS, yes the % increase is lower per point. The amount increase is the same.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiralphoenix View Post
    The amount increase is the same.
    Correct, but that's not relevant in this case when calculating our stats. However I don't think we will ever reach the point where crit actually becomes so much worse that we aren't going to be as interested in it anymore.
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  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Correct, but that's not relevant in this case when calculating our stats. However I don't think we will ever reach the point where crit actually becomes so much worse that we aren't going to be as interested in it anymore.
    we won't get that much but we might hit the point where mastery might be better then crit. Right now for BM crit mastery and haste are very very close.

    Right now i have over 26% crit unbuffed. By the time i hit 30% unbuffed crit, which could happen near the end of t15 mastery might be the better stat for BM vs crit. Right now at ilvl 510 they are nearly equal in terms of return with mastery very very close behind it.

    I can reforge several different ways from crit heavy to mastery heavy to even haste heavy or even keeping all pretty balanced and not have my DPS vary more then 300DPS one way or another. Thats one reason why i think BM will stay viable in 5.2, there is a great deal of haste on the next tier of gear, and SV currently scales the worst with haste.

    however this is off topic for this tread. Regardless in terms of trinkets the reorganization trinket still will not be that good for hunters simply because all our stats work very well with each other, giving up for the sake of one even if that one is boosted just doesn't work as well for us as it does other classes. If it simply took the current haste and current mastery and added them to crit without subtracting them that would be different.

  8. #108
    I haven't done any math at all so take this with a grain of salt, but I'm personally not expecting to reach a point where crit loses so much value that mastery or haste becomes better this expansion. The amount of crit we need for that to happen is something in the lines of 85%, and I don't think that's feasible even at the end of tier 16 with fully upgraded BiS gear. But once again take this with a grain of salt. I did no math and I'm merely speculating.

    I don't see Rune of Reorigination ever becoming one of our best 2 trinkets. This is a good thing as Rogues and Shamans as you said might do. This leaves more options for us in terms of the other trinkets. Kind of a shame, the trinket is really unique and looks really fun.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    I haven't done any math at all so take this with a grain of salt, but I'm personally not expecting to reach a point where crit loses so much value that mastery or haste becomes better this expansion. The amount of crit we need for that to happen is something in the lines of 85%, and I don't think that's feasible even at the end of tier 16 with fully upgraded BiS gear. But once again take this with a grain of salt. I did no math and I'm merely speculating.

    I don't see Rune of Reorigination ever becoming one of our best 2 trinkets. This is a good thing as Rogues and Shamans as you said might do. This leaves more options for us in terms of the other trinkets. Kind of a shame, the trinket is really unique and looks really fun.
    Off topic: It's super OP for WW monks, don't you forget that. Literally OP. They will have tigereye brew at almost 200% more damage with 10 stacks of tigereye brew.


    I did some napkin math and really, you are only losing something in the realm of 30-100 dps with our levels of crit. Mastery wont get better or be better until we start losing ~upwards of 400+ damage and by that time we'll probably be almost crit capped.

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  10. #110
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    Ummm, won't this be really good for MM? Imagine it procs during CA, you still have the +75% crit from CA, but now you have 17k haste. I mean, holy crap batman.

  11. #111
    Then you go the remaining 80% of the fight proccing massive haste and having 0% crit, CA phase isn't all there is. And it's not like all your base crit goes to waste during CA, only whats over 25.6%.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Ummm, won't this be really good for MM? Imagine it procs during CA, you still have the +75% crit from CA, but now you have 17k haste. I mean, holy crap batman.
    It would be good in the CA phase, but after that it be detrimental the way I see it. You'd have to stack haste to 7k+ or bring your crit down so overall that would be a hinder. You are making it sound better than it would be in that situation as you are still limited by focus. I'd rather just get the talisman of bloodlust and bad juju to proc during that time tbh. AiS is close to getting to a 1 second cast time without the 4 piece and with hero/rapid fire up so it's practically accomplishing the same thing.

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  13. #113
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    Still, the procs outside of CA will result in longer periods of AiS dumping, which should lead to an increase in DPS. If you can time your Rapid Fires for right after the procs, you can have sustained about 30s of AiS dumping.

  14. #114
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    Several of you keep saying the math is simple behind crit being devalued against itself as it gets higher, and yet noone has actually explained it. That sounds like warrior crap where at some point they're not increasing their enrage uptimes anymore. Unless one of you can actually show math explaining it, I'd wager you all just read it somewhere and accepted it.

    Simple logic and a basic knowledge of how the combat table works (unless they've completely changed it since TBC, which I doubt) says that crit would have a perfectly linear effect on DPS (up to 90%, accounting for 10% extra crit on pets), as it effects 100% of our damage equally. We have only one proc off of crit (GftT) and there are no skills with higher crit chance unless you're MM (where piercing shots would likely offset CA phase, if not outweigh it). I can't find anything that would cause the behavior you're all claiming exists prior to some point - in fact, I'd think crit would APPRECIATE as you approached 100% Wild Hunt uptime thanks to GftT. A lower value relative to itself is of no consequence to absolute DPS. Please feel free to prove me wrong here - but random assertions of "the math is simple" doesn't really cut it.

    The value of crit relative to other stats does change, largely because they don't effect 100% of our damage and thus interact oddly, but this is a completely separate thing from what Neazy is describing. It's also not an issue easily described by math without using a fairly complex mathematical model. A basic understanding of how your stats will interact with each other at these extreme values IS NECESSARY to plan out how you're going to take advantage of this proc, though, and is what I aim to grasp from sims, tests and hopefully this thread.
    Last edited by Flustered; 2013-02-21 at 09:16 PM.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Flustered View Post
    Several of you keep saying the math is simple behind crit being devalued against itself as it gets higher, and yet noone has actually explained it. That sounds like warrior crap where at some point they're not increasing their enrage uptimes anymore. Unless one of you can actually show math explaining it, I'd wager you all just read it somewhere and accepted it.

    Simple logic and a basic knowledge of how the combat table works (unless they've completely changed it since TBC, which I doubt) says that crit would have a perfectly linear effect on DPS (up to 90%, accounting for 10% extra crit on pets), as it effects 100% of our damage equally. We have only one proc off of crit (GftT) and there are no skills with higher crit chance unless you're MM. I can't find anything that would cause the behavior you're all claiming exists prior to some point - in fact, I'd think crit would APPRECIATE as you approached 100% Wild Hunt uptime thanks to GftT. A lower value relative to itself is of no consequence to absolute DPS. Please feel free to prove me wrong here - but random assertions of "the math is simple" doesn't really cut it.

    The value of crit relative to other stats does change, largely because they don't effect 100% of our damage and thus interact oddly, but this is a completely separate thing from what Neazy is describing. It's also not an issue easily described by math without creating a fairly complex mathematical model. A basic understanding of how your stats will interact with each other at these extreme values IS NECESSARY to plan out how you're going to take advantage of this proc, though, and is the more important topic of discussion here.
    the issue with explaining the drawn out math is that very few will understand it in those terms.

    That is why i used the analogy to drinking, it it seems that that concept is beyond people as well. Most people cannot think i terms of higher level math. However when a stat is terminating, like crit, you need a greater amount to see the same return.

    Lets put in terms that are on TV constantly, look at TV shows about drugs. The first time someone uses any drug it works at its full potency, but the more you use of it the more you need of it to get the same result. That is the exact same way crit works, with the exception that a certain point (100%) you get nothing at all from it anymore. Adding in the math and showing the numbers doesn't do anything but confuse the people who already cannot understand the concept in simple terms.

    Here is something you can do to see the diminished return for yourself. load your toon into FD, go to the custom stat area and take off ALL of your crit then run the DPS. From that point add 600 crit (1%) then run it again, do it each time the more you do it the less of an increase you will get. It will not be much less until you get higher up but there will be a point that you get almost no return for the addition crit. That is a diminishing return, currently in game the only DPS that that returns less the more you get of it is Crit (assuming you do not have a soft/hard cap on another stat which hunters do not)

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Still, the procs outside of CA will result in longer periods of AiS dumping, which should lead to an increase in DPS. If you can time your Rapid Fires for right after the procs, you can have sustained about 30s of AiS dumping.
    With 1 talisman of bloodlust proc and a bit of haste you could essentially do the same thing until we drop the t14 4 piece.

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  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron View Post
    If you never reach the cap, having it doesn't affect the value of stat. Imagine, if we couldn't have more than 100% mastery. Would it change mastery's value? No, because we never have 100% mastery anyway. (P.S. Mastery has hard cap for MM, but it's just that high). Same with haste, if we couldn't have more than 100% haste it wouldn't matter cause we don't anyway.
    The only reason for crit to get weaker on high numbers is because we have some static crit buffs to some skills, like Spiked Collar or Cobra Strikes.
    Other than that, 1% crit gives you ~~1% of "critless" dps gain - doesn't matter if you go from 25 or from 55, as long as it's not 95.
    What the fuck are you even saying? This is the most unintelligible thing I've ever read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron
    After you reach certain breakpoint, haste will only raise your auto-shot rate and passive focus regen - until you reach next one. It won't do anything else.
    What's your point? Obviously getting exactly to a breakpoint is ideal, but you can't always do that so you get as close as you can. At this point you're not even arguing with anything I'm saying, you're just saying random facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron
    Well, yes, you can reach it but you can't maintain it, which makes it too random.
    Doesn't matter if it's random, it's still a huge DPS increase. Whether that DPS increase will be worth more than what the other trinkets give you is what's up for debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flustered
    Several of you keep saying the math is simple behind crit being devalued against itself as it gets higher, and yet noone has actually explained it. That sounds like warrior crap where at some point they're not increasing their enrage uptimes anymore. Unless one of you can actually show math explaining it, I'd wager you all just read it somewhere and accepted it.

    Simple logic and a basic knowledge of how the combat table works (unless they've completely changed it since TBC, which I doubt) says that crit would have a perfectly linear effect on DPS (up to 90%, accounting for 10% extra crit on pets), as it effects 100% of our damage equally. We have only one proc off of crit (GftT) and there are no skills with higher crit chance unless you're MM (where piercing shots would likely offset CA phase, if not outweigh it). I can't find anything that would cause the behavior you're all claiming exists prior to some point - in fact, I'd think crit would APPRECIATE as you approached 100% Wild Hunt uptime thanks to GftT. A lower value relative to itself is of no consequence to absolute DPS. Please feel free to prove me wrong here - but random assertions of "the math is simple" doesn't really cut it.

    The value of crit relative to other stats does change, largely because they don't effect 100% of our damage and thus interact oddly, but this is a completely separate thing from what Neazy is describing. It's also not an issue easily described by math without using a fairly complex mathematical model. A basic understanding of how your stats will interact with each other at these extreme values IS NECESSARY to plan out how you're going to take advantage of this proc, though, and is what I aim to grasp from sims, tests and hopefully this thread.
    You have completely missed the point. I, and others in this thread, have stated countless times that yes, crit is linear when talking about the actual damage gained, but when talking as a percentage of overall damage its value decreases. Here's what I said on the last page, and if you don't understand this, go take a college math class before you come back and try to join this discussion:

    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy
    Gaining 1% crit at 100k DPS might give you a 1% damage increase, but gaining 1% crit at 200k DPS will give you a .5% damage increase. Haste is the opposite; it will give you the same relative increase no matter what your DPS. If you gain .6% damage for every 1% of haste at 100k DPS, you will still gain .6% damage for every 1% of haste at 200k DPS. That's why I said this trinket will likely be more useful for haste builds than crit builds.

    These numbers are theoretical and just used to prove a point. I have no idea how much more damage 1% of crit gives you at a certain DPS.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    You have completely missed the point. I, and others in this thread, have stated countless times that yes, crit is linear when talking about the actual damage gained, but when talking as a percentage of overall damage its value decreases. Here's what I said on the last page, and if you don't understand this, go take a college math class before you come back and try to join this discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    Gaining 1% crit at 100k DPS might give you a 1% damage increase, but gaining 1% crit at 200k DPS will give you a .5% damage increase. Haste is the opposite; it will give you the same relative increase no matter what your DPS. If you gain .6% damage for every 1% of haste at 100k DPS, you will still gain .6% damage for every 1% of haste at 200k DPS. That's why I said this trinket will likely be more useful for haste builds than crit builds.

    These numbers are theoretical and just used to prove a point. I have no idea how much more damage 1% of crit gives you at a certain DPS.
    Unfounded personal attacks aside (I'm a senior in an electrical engineering program, there is close to zero chance you've taken more applied math than I have), you are comparing relative damage increases with absolute increases. Also you've yet to actually supply -actual- math with real numbers.

    I understand what you're saying here - if your baseline damage with 0% crit is 100k, and you add 10% crit, you're doing 110k dps. If you add 20% more crit to that, you're doing 130k dps, which is only 18% increase to your previous 110k damage. You've still added a total of 30% damage with crit.

    If you have some way of showing me that you can just treat all prior gained stats as a black box like that, rather than just spewing random insults about my (unknown to you) intelligence, I may be inclined to listen to you. Otherwise you're just being obtuse.
    Last edited by Flustered; 2013-02-21 at 10:05 PM.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Still, the procs outside of CA will result in longer periods of AiS dumping, which should lead to an increase in DPS. If you can time your Rapid Fires for right after the procs, you can have sustained about 30s of AiS dumping.
    I definitely think it's possible. When you're dumping with AI all the time, haste is straight up a better stat than crit. It would not be that crazy to reforge haste > crit > mastery if you plan on playing marks full time. The problem is that one of the changes Blizzard made this patch was that they changed AI from a 2.9 sec cast to a 2.5 sec cast. That means that if you get too much haste at once your AI will be under 1 sec cast time, essentially wasting at least some of the haste that you gained. All it takes is one trinket proc during bloodlust or RF to essentially end up with a wasted proc because your cast time will be too low to make use of the extra haste. Now, being able to basically spam AI during the CA phase might make up for that, but without running any numbers I think that this trinket will be competitive for marks, but not OP.

    If Blizz would revert the lowered cast time on AI and increase the damage instead, I'm sure we would see much more potential with haste builds. But that reduced cast time really lowered the ceiling effect of haste stacking.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    the issue with explaining the drawn out math is that very few will understand it in those terms.

    That is why i used the analogy to drinking, it it seems that that concept is beyond people as well. Most people cannot think i terms of higher level math. However when a stat is terminating, like crit, you need a greater amount to see the same return.

    Lets put in terms that are on TV constantly, look at TV shows about drugs. The first time someone uses any drug it works at its full potency, but the more you use of it the more you need of it to get the same result. That is the exact same way crit works, with the exception that a certain point (100%) you get nothing at all from it anymore. Adding in the math and showing the numbers doesn't do anything but confuse the people who already cannot understand the concept in simple terms.

    Here is something you can do to see the diminished return for yourself. load your toon into FD, go to the custom stat area and take off ALL of your crit then run the DPS. From that point add 600 crit (1%) then run it again, do it each time the more you do it the less of an increase you will get. It will not be much less until you get higher up but there will be a point that you get almost no return for the addition crit. That is a diminishing return, currently in game the only DPS that that returns less the more you get of it is Crit (assuming you do not have a soft/hard cap on another stat which hunters do not)
    Did you actually try this?

    I just loaded up my FD.

    Offset all my crit rating in the custom stats section. (-7346)

    Puts me at 20.89%. Take 600 off that negative, run dps (-6746)

    21.89%. Gained 828.01 DPS. Take off another 600, run dps (-6146)

    22.89%. Gained 828.01 DPS. Take off another 600, run dps (-5546)

    23.89%. Gained 828 DPS. Another 600, run dps (-4946)

    24.89%. Gained 828.01 DPS.

    It only diminishes relative to total DPS. As in, percentage increase. Haste does the same thing, haste is just inherently more complex with shot shifting/etc. so that is the reason why it is not so simple, NOT because haste "doesn't diminish in value". Any stat will do the same thing, the same amount of the stat will provide you less relative to your total DPS in higher amounts because just the basis of having the amounts before the 1% you are adding, your total is increased. In fact you can see the same effects doing the above in FD for mastery instead of crit. Each 600 provides the same amount increase, and a lower % total increase.

    You can also see the above effects illustrated in the spreadsheet I posted above. The same thing happens for haste in a simplistic environment. Saying the real thing is not a simplistic environment is not a valid argument that haste does not behave the same way, it behaves differently because of shot shifting/focus regen increase/other more complex mechanics.

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