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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Flustered View Post
    Unfounded personal attacks aside (I'm a senior in an electrical engineering program, there is close to zero chance you've taken more applied math than I have), you are comparing relative damage increases with absolute increases. Also you've yet to actually supply -actual- math with real numbers.

    I understand what you're saying here - if your baseline damage with 0% crit is 100k, and you add 10% crit, you're doing 110k dps. If you add 20% more crit to that, you're doing 130k dps, which is only 18% increase to your previous 110k damage. THIS HAS ZERO FUCKING RELEVANCE TO CRIT'S VALUE. You've still added a total of 30% damage with crit.
    It's relevant in relation to the Trinket of Re-Origination, which is what we're discussing. That trinket removes your other stats and converts them into crit. As you said, that 20% crit you gained at 110k DPS is only an 18% increase in your damage. That 20% crit could have been, say, 25% haste if you were using another trinket, which could have given you more than 18% of an increase in DPS.

    Basically what I'm saying is: 50% crit and 50% haste > 100% crit.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    I definitely think it's possible. When you're dumping with AI all the time, haste is straight up a better stat than crit. It would not be that crazy to reforge haste > crit > mastery if you plan on playing marks full time. The problem is that one of the changes Blizzard made this patch was that they changed AI from a 2.9 sec cast to a 2.5 sec cast. That means that if you get too much haste at once your AI will be under 1 sec cast time, essentially wasting at least some of the haste that you gained. All it takes is one trinket proc during bloodlust or RF to essentially end up with a wasted proc because your cast time will be too low to make use of the extra haste. Now, being able to basically spam AI during the CA phase might make up for that, but without running any numbers I think that this trinket will be competitive for marks, but not OP.

    If Blizz would revert the lowered cast time on AI and increase the damage instead, I'm sure we would see much more potential with haste builds. But that reduced cast time really lowered the ceiling effect of haste stacking.
    It's possible, but not practical. You can use the talisman of bloodlust and accomplish the same thing more often (3 RPPM for 10 secs vs 1 RPPM for 10 secs). If you are stacking haste to a point where it's higher than crit chances are you will be able to use AiS as a dump with only one talisman of bloodlust proc active without the t14 4 piece.

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  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    It's possible, but not practical. You can use the talisman of bloodlust and accomplish the same thing more often (3 RPPM for 10 secs vs 1 RPPM for 10 secs). If you are stacking haste to a point where it's higher than crit chances are you will be able to use AiS as a dump with only one talisman of bloodlust proc active without the t14 4 piece.
    I'm still hesitant to say that the Bloodlust trinket is a clear winner until you can run both trinkets through a sim and find out. The BL trinket only gives 1700 haste each proc, and while it doesn't reduce your other stats, that's not enough haste to drastically change your rotation.

    T14 set is irrelevant too since you should be replacing that the first chance you get.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    I'm still hesitant to say that the Bloodlust trinket is a clear winner until you can run both trinkets through a sim and find out. The BL trinket only gives 1700 haste each proc, and while it doesn't reduce your other stats, that's not enough haste to drastically change your rotation.

    T14 set is irrelevant too since you should be replacing that the first chance you get.
    Yeah, that's why I said without the t14 4 piece. I still think that the rune of re-origination would be a detriment to hunters though.

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  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Yeah, that's why I said without the t14 4 piece. I still think that the rune of re-origination would be a detriment to hunters though.
    My bad I read that wrong. I think it depends if any procs are wasted in your average fight. If you can line it up so that you make the most out of each proc without any wasted haste, Re-Origination could be amazing. Once procs start getting wasted, Bloodlust looks a lot better.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiralphoenix View Post
    It only diminishes relative to total DPS. As in, percentage increase. Haste does the same thing, haste is just inherently more complex with shot shifting/etc. so that is the reason why it is not so simple, NOT because haste "doesn't diminish in value". Any stat will do the same thing, the same amount of the stat will provide you less relative to your total DPS in higher amounts because just the basis of having the amounts before the 1% you are adding, your total is increased. In fact you can see the same effects doing the above in FD for mastery instead of crit. Each 600 provides the same amount increase, and a lower % total increase.

    You can also see the above effects illustrated in the spreadsheet I posted above. The same thing happens for haste in a simplistic environment. Saying the real thing is not a simplistic environment is not a valid argument that haste does not behave the same way, it behaves differently because of shot shifting/focus regen increase/other more complex mechanics.
    Thank you, this is precisely how I've been interpreting things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    It's relevant in relation to the Trinket of Re-Origination, which is what we're discussing. That trinket removes your other stats and converts them into crit. As you said, that 20% crit you gained at 110k DPS is only an 18% increase in your damage. That 20% crit could have been, say, 25% haste if you were using another trinket, which could have given you more than 18% of an increase in DPS.

    Basically what I'm saying is: 50% crit and 50% haste > 100% crit.
    You're fundamentally attacking this from the wrong angle, and now you're comparing the completely unknown result of this trinket to another random trinket that somehow mystically grants 25% haste (would love to have that).

    You can't just analyze this trinket as a flat damage increase based on how much crit you gain. I'm sorry, but you can't. Because of the way all the stats interact with each other, the best way to guesstimate what this trinket will do for your damage is to sim it. Take off one trinket and sim yourself normally, then sim yourself with the base trinket agility added. Save that difference. Sim yourself again with your stats adjusted the way the trinket proc would set you. Adjust the added damage for uptime and add it to the damage from agility. Compare that added damage with other trinkets.

    Stop making the stat portion of this infinitely more complicated than it needs to be. If you find some way to game the proc in your favor, the damage you gain from the trinket can only be higher than what the sim is giving you.
    Last edited by Flustered; 2013-02-21 at 10:34 PM.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Flustered View Post
    You're fundamentally attacking this from the wrong angle, and now you're comparing the completely unknown result of this trinket to another random trinket that somehow mystically grants 25% haste (would love to have that).

    You can't just analyze this trinket as a flat damage increase based on how much crit you gain. I'm sorry, but you can't. Because of the way all the stats interact with each other, the best way to guesstimate what this trinket will do for your damage is to sim it. Take off one trinket and sim yourself normally, then sim yourself with the base trinket agility added. Save that difference. Sim yourself again with your stats adjusted the way the trinket would set you. Adjust the added damage for uptime and add it to the damage from agility. Compare that added damage with other trinkets.

    Stop making this infinitely more complicated than it needs to be.
    You say the trinket has an "unknown result", and then you say I should just run a sim to get results? If the trinket has an unknown result (which it does, I don't think there's any sims yet that accurately model this trinket), then how could I possibly sim it?

    We're discussing this because there's no accurate model. If you don't want to discuss it, go away.

    Also:

    You can't just analyze this trinket as a flat damage increase based on how much crit you gain. I'm sorry, but you can't. Because of the way all the stats interact with each other,
    When did I ever do that? I'm pretty sure that when I said "50% crit + 50% haste > 100% crit" I was taking into account how crit and haste interact with each other. If I wasn't, I would have said 100% crit was better.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    You say the trinket has an "unknown result", and then you say I should just run a sim to get results? If the trinket has an unknown result (which it does, I don't think there's any sims yet that accurately model this trinket), then how could I possibly sim it?

    We're discussing this because there's no accurate model. If you don't want to discuss it, go away.
    I'm dubious that sims will ever put rotational changes into effect under this trinket proc, because they don't necessarily know the optimal way to take advantage of the proc for each spec. I just outlined the current most accurate way to sim the trinket, and the way that will likely be used when the trinket actually is in sims. The reason I say it has an "unknown result" is because you could theoretically gain more damage from the trinket than the sim (which won't be changing its rotation or pooling focus beforehand) is currently showing. You won't gain less unless you're fucking up your rotation. My outlined method will show you the gains under a normal rotation.

    Just because you seemed to ignore it though, here it is again:
    1)Take off one trinket and sim yourself normally.
    2)Sim yourself with the base trinket agility added. Save that difference.
    3)Sim yourself again with your stats adjusted the way the trinket proc would set you. Adjust the added damage from this step for uptime (somewhere around 15%?) and add it to the damage gain from agility.
    4)Compare that total added damage with other trinkets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    When did I ever do that?
    Refer to this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    That trinket removes your other stats and converts them into crit. As you said, that 20% crit you gained at 110k DPS is only an 18% increase in your damage. That 20% crit could have been, say, 25% haste if you were using another trinket, which could have given you more than 18% of an increase in DPS.
    Last edited by Flustered; 2013-02-21 at 10:59 PM.

  9. #129
    I don't get why you guys think the rune is a good trinket. Sure with it you will have ~1.4 second aimed shot casts over ~1.8, but do those .4 seconds really matter when 1 crit negates the extra AiS you would've gotten out of the rune proc. You roll with the talisman of bloodlust and you can essentially do the same thing more often and crit more often while doing so. Makes a whole lot more sense than trying to make the rune work AND you don't need to gimp yourself reforge wise.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-21 at 11:02 PM ----------

    Also a side note: I attacked the dummy for literally 20 minutes and no rune of reorgination procs whatsoever. Not sure what is causing it, but I cannot test it.

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  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Flustered View Post
    I'm dubious that sims will ever put rotational changes into effect under this trinket proc, because they don't necessarily know the optimal way to take advantage of the proc for each spec. I just outlined the current most accurate way to sim the trinket, and the way that will likely be used when the trinket actually is in sims. The reason I say it has an "unknown result" is because you could theoretically gain more damage from the trinket than the sim (which won't be changing its rotation or pooling focus beforehand) is currently showing. You won't gain less unless you're fucking up your rotation. My outlined method will show you the gains under a normal rotation.

    Just because you seemed to ignore it though, here it is again:
    1)Take off one trinket and sim yourself normally.
    2)Sim yourself with the base trinket agility added. Save that difference.
    3)Sim yourself again with your stats adjusted the way the trinket proc would set you. Adjust the added damage from this step for uptime (somewhere around 30%?) and add it to the damage gain from agility.
    4)Compare that total added damage with other trinkets.
    Now who's making things complicated?

    Refer to this:
    You obviously misunderstood what I said. Read it again til it sinks in.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    Now who's making things complicated?
    Classic "NO U" response. Thanks for playing.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Flustered View Post
    Classic "NO U" response. Thanks for playing.
    You can't even break down my logic. You're attacking my "complication" of things... and then making things more complicated. Nice.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    You can't even break down my logic. You're attacking my "complication" of things... and then making things more complicated. Nice.
    Your logic is to use percentile dps increases to explain this trinket. If you can point me towards a community that regards items as % DPS increases instead of flat DPS or EP increases, I'll tip my hat to you and go on my way. But you won't, and for good reason.

    You made me explain how I'm choosing to model this trinket, but in reality the 3 steps it takes are a lot less complicated than trying to math out relative stat values.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Flustered View Post
    Your logic is to use percentile dps increases to explain this trinket. If you can point me towards a community that regards items as % DPS increases instead of flat DPS or EP increases, I'll tip my hat to you and go on my way. But you won't, and for good reason.
    That's not what I said. I was using percentage values for haste and crit to show why keeping your other secondary stats is better than sacrificing them all for crit.

    You made me explain how I'm choosing to model this trinket, but in reality the 3 steps it takes are a lot less complicated than trying to math out relative stat values.
    Or you could just take my posts as truth, because they are truth. That trinket is shit if you're using it to increase your crit. Period.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    That's not what I said. I was using percentage values for haste and crit to show why keeping your other secondary stats is better than sacrificing them all for crit.
    Can't actually show things without providing a shred of proof or using any real numbers unless you WANT them to be challenged. Derp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    Or you could just take my posts as truth, because they are truth. That trinket is shit if you're using it to increase your crit. Period.
    LOL? WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

    Yessa massa, I'll do anything you say



    P.S.: Nowhere, ever, did I say this is a good trinket if you're using it to increase crit. It's not. I know that, you know that, we all know that. Basic logic tells you as much. Fact remains you've been trying to analyze it using shit methods and bad math, and told several people that crit devalues as you get more when it is in fact linear.
    Last edited by Flustered; 2013-02-21 at 11:58 PM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Flustered View Post
    Can't actually show things without providing a shred of proof or using any real numbers unless you WANT them to be challenged. Derp.


    LOL? WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

    Yessa massa, I'll do anything you say
    If my last 2 pages of posts is not enough proof for you, feel free to prove me wrong. I'd love to be proven wrong, that would mean this discussion is actually getting somewhere. But for the last like 8 posts it's just been you getting your feelings hurt because I called you out on page 6.

  17. #137
    Can you guys stop arguing about whatever it is now please? It's a shitty trinket regardless of how you gem/reforge as a hunter. Period. As detailed by my previous posts it's almost pointless to pick up because other trinkets can do the same thing more efficiently and effectively, this trinket and will most likely result in a dps loss in however way you use it.

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  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Flustered
    P.S.: Nowhere, ever, did I say this is a good trinket if you're using it to increase crit. It's not. I know that, you know that, we all know that. Basic logic tells you as much. Fact remains you've been trying to analyze it using shit methods and bad math, and told several people that crit devalues as you get more when it is in fact linear.
    I said crit devalues as you get more of it? Really? From my post on page 5:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron
    1% crit gives same absolute DPS increase whether you're at 40% or 0%. Relative dps increase will be lower, but absolute is same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy
    That's exactly what I was saying.
    Clearly, you did not read anything I wrote. Except when I called you out. That obviously sunk in.

    "Flustered" is a great name for this guy.

  19. #139
    Can we wrap this discussion up maybe? It's getting out of hand, and at the moment several people are acting like children. Unless someone has something meaningful to post you might as well not post at all. This back and forth game is getting nowhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Also a side note: I attacked the dummy for literally 20 minutes and no rune of reorgination procs whatsoever. Not sure what is causing it, but I cannot test it.
    Could it be that we are flagged as a strength or intellect class? I noticed on the front page that several intellect-only and strength-only trinkets now only procs for the classes they are meant to proc for. It would really suck if the patch went live with us not getting any agility procs.
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    I said crit devalues as you get more of it? Really?
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    Not only does crit lose value when you lose all your haste and mastery, but every point of crit is less of an increase than the point of crit before. (ie: When you have 10% crit and up grade your gear to reach 11% crit, your attacks crit 10% more often than before the upgrade; whereas if you have 40% crit and gain 1% crit, you only crit 2.5% more often than before).
    I guess I'm done with that.

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