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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Can we wrap this discussion up maybe? It's getting out of hand, and at the moment several people are acting like children. Unless someone has something meaningful to post you might as well not post at all. This back and forth game is getting nowhere.
    I usually respond to people when they speak to me directly, like that guy is doing, and I will continue to do so. Might be a foreign concept to you since you just passively aggressively called me a child, but you should try it out sometime. It's much more effective than turning a blind eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flustered
    I guess I'm done with that.
    "Every point of crit is less of an increase than the point of crit before"

    Excuse me, I forgot to put the word "percentage" before the word increase. I assumed people would understand what I meant from the example and that I didn't have to spoon feed it.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Neazy View Post
    I usually respond to people when they speak to me directly, like that guy is doing, and I will continue to do so. Might be a foreign concept to you since you just passively aggressively called me a child, but you should try it out sometime. It's much more effective than turning a blind eye.
    He called you a child because you guys are pointlessly arguing like a child. It was just going in circles. Can you guys just please stop.

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  3. #143
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    I got some info on more precise proc calculations, so I made another spreadsheet. Now with stat weights, Rune calculation, and options!
    Here it is.
    The only things I didn't bother with was Talisman of Bloodlust changing the way Rune of Origination procs, and reforging Juju's mastery into crit.
    Old Gods made me do it.

  4. #144
    Most trinkets are actually looking like a dps loss for some reason. For example,

    Bad juju is .5 PPM which means .5 of a proc every minute or 1 proc every 2 minutes. 7333 agi * 20 seconds / 120 seconds = 1222.16 agi.
    H terror in the mists 2/2 has 1401 agility and more crit rating than the mastery rating on the trinket (1600.3 crit vs 1467 mastery)

    Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault has a 105 second ICD so 8800 * 20 / 105 = 1676.19 agility

    Rune of Re-Orgination has a .92 PPM, but with haste it will most likely be 1 PPM. So, with my stats I'd be getting -4550 mastery - 2009 haste and + 13118 crit. With a rate of about 1 minute I'd passively be getting a gain/reduction to -758.3 mastery -334.8 haste + 2186.3 crit.

    Talsiman of Bloodlust has 3PPM and can stack. I will just be looking at it without stacking for simplicity. Which would put it at 768.9 haste.

    Renataki's Soul Charm's agility is very low for some reason.

    1333+1333*2+1333*3+1333*4+1333*5+1333*6+1333*7+1333*8+1333*9+1333*10 * 2 seconds each / 120 second proc interval = 1221.9 agility

    I might be looking at it wrong. If I am, correct me please.

    The trinkets seem a bit weak, what do you guys think?

    It looks like the rune + shado pan trinket will be BiS if my calculations are correct.

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  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Most trinkets are actually looking like a dps loss for some reason. For example,

    Bad juju is .5 PPM which means .5 of a proc every minute or 1 proc every 2 minutes. 7333 agi * 20 seconds / 120 seconds = 1222.16 agi.
    H terror in the mists 2/2 has 1401 agility and more crit rating than the mastery rating on the trinket (1600.3 crit vs 1467 mastery)

    Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault has a 105 second ICD so 8800 * 20 / 105 = 1676.19 agility

    Rune of Re-Orgination has a .92 PPM, but with haste it will most likely be 1 PPM. So, with my stats I'd be getting -4550 mastery - 2009 haste and + 13118 crit. With a rate of about 1 minute I'd passively be getting a gain/reduction to -758.3 mastery -334.8 haste + 2186.3 crit.

    Talsiman of Bloodlust has 3PPM and can stack. I will just be looking at it without stacking for simplicity. Which would put it at 768.9 haste.

    Renataki's Soul Charm's agility is very low for some reason.

    1333+1333*2+1333*3+1333*4+1333*5+1333*6+1333*7+1333*8+1333*9+1333*10 * 2 seconds each / 120 second proc interval = 1221.9 agility

    I might be looking at it wrong. If I am, correct me please.

    The trinkets seem a bit weak, what do you guys think?

    It looks like the rune + shado pan trinket will be BiS if my calculations are correct.
    i am not touching the rune even with the changes... the Bloodlust talisman will stay stacked all the time... with 3PPM that is once every 20 seconds... with any haste it should stay up all the time.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Most trinkets are actually looking like a dps loss for some reason. For example,

    Bad juju is .5 PPM which means .5 of a proc every minute or 1 proc every 2 minutes. 7333 agi * 20 seconds / 120 seconds = 1222.16 agi.
    H terror in the mists 2/2 has 1401 agility and more crit rating than the mastery rating on the trinket (1600.3 crit vs 1467 mastery)

    Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault has a 105 second ICD so 8800 * 20 / 105 = 1676.19 agility

    Rune of Re-Orgination has a .92 PPM, but with haste it will most likely be 1 PPM. So, with my stats I'd be getting -4550 mastery - 2009 haste and + 13118 crit. With a rate of about 1 minute I'd passively be getting a gain/reduction to -758.3 mastery -334.8 haste + 2186.3 crit.

    Talsiman of Bloodlust has 3PPM and can stack. I will just be looking at it without stacking for simplicity. Which would put it at 768.9 haste.

    Renataki's Soul Charm's agility is very low for some reason.

    1333+1333*2+1333*3+1333*4+1333*5+1333*6+1333*7+1333*8+1333*9+1333*10 * 2 seconds each / 120 second proc interval = 1221.9 agility

    I might be looking at it wrong. If I am, correct me please.

    The trinkets seem a bit weak, what do you guys think?

    It looks like the rune + shado pan trinket will be BiS if my calculations are correct.
    RealPPM means the procs are modified by haste. Same as meta. Average haste over fight with all the buffs for SV is ~20-25%, MM ~30-35%, BM ~35-40%.
    If you look at formulas in the spreadheet I posted earlier (download it to edit weights), you'll see that there's a parameter called "Your average haste over fight" - it matters.
    Other normal trinkets get equal to Shado-Pan around 45-50% haste, which means Shado-Pan is strongly BiS for SV and MM, and slightly BiS for BM
    For Bloodlust, stacking matters a lot. Theck and Hamlet made the calculations (Here's the link). Average uptime for hunters is about 0.85-1.05 stacks
    Oh, and I'm still unclear on Renataki's, does it start at 0 stacks and go to 9, or does it start at 1 and goes to 10. If it's latter, it's actually equal to Shado-Pan even for SV, and even better for MM and BM.
    Last edited by Thiron; 2013-02-27 at 06:26 AM.
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  7. #147
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    I think we're missing something if the VP trinket is "strongly" BiS by your calculations, even in just normal modes. That's just rarely true, with the exception of darkmoon cards in past expansions, where bought/crafted trinkets are BiS.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron View Post
    RealPPM means the procs are modified by haste. Same as meta. Average haste over fight with all the buffs for SV is ~20-25%, MM ~30-35%, BM ~35-40%.
    If you look at formulas in the spreadheet I posted earlier (download it to edit weights), you'll see that there's a parameter called "Your average haste over fight" - it matters.
    Other normal trinkets get equal to Shado-Pan around 45-50% haste, which means Shado-Pan is strongly BiS for SV and MM, and slightly BiS for BM
    For Bloodlust, stacking matters a lot. Theck and Hamlet made the calculations (Here's the link). Average uptime for hunters is about 0.85-1.05 stacks
    Oh, and I'm still unclear on Renataki's, does it start at 0 stacks and go to 9, or does it start at 1 and goes to 10. If it's latter, it's actually equal to Shado-Pan even for SV, and even better for MM and BM.
    I am well aware of how RealPPM works. You can even look at my post detailing my knowledge on the subject, I just didn't really factor in haste for simplicity since I didn't have the time.

    How are you modeling rentaki's soul charm with your spreadsheet?

    Also you are modeling bad juju with a ~100 second proc interval while you modeling the rune with a ~63 proc interval. So haste is somehow increasing the rune's proc interval when it should be decreasing it.

    On the spreadsheet Bad juju has =(1-EXP(-0.5*(1+B21/100)*20/60)) for the PPM interval. The formula is ppm * haste * time since last chance / 60 (sec per min) and you have PPM * haste * 20 (time since last chance) / 60 (sec per min)
    The time since last chance to proc is not 20 seconds every time you have a chance to proc the trinket. It is capped at 10 seconds so that's impossible. If you are factoring in the down time then you did it wrong and it is valuing bad juju higher than it's supposed to be. I think you should go back and recheck the way your spreadsheet is modeling the trinkets.

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  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    no you are wrong, 1% haste increases our damage by the same percentage regardless if you have 2% haste or 80% haste, crit does not increase our damage by the same amount at 2% and at 80%.
    Sorry for late answer ^^
    No you are wrong. If you allready have 100% haste on ger, getting an additional 1% gives you 201% amount of attacka, which is a 201/200 = 0.5% more attacks, whereas going fromt 0 to 1% haste gives you 1% more attacks.
    Haste acts exactly like crit and mastery in that aspect

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrueM4gg0t View Post
    Sorry for late answer ^^
    No you are wrong. If you allready have 100% haste on ger, getting an additional 1% gives you 201% amount of attacka, which is a 201/200 = 0.5% more attacks, whereas going fromt 0 to 1% haste gives you 1% more attacks.
    Haste acts exactly like crit and mastery in that aspect
    Not to mention that abilities that are affected by haste (Cobra/Aimed shot/Steady shot) are all under the rules of diminishing returns. Going from 0->1000 haste gives a 0.418 sec reduction in cast time, while going from 1000->2000 gives a 0.399 reduction (according to femaledwarfs haste calculator).

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    I am well aware of how RealPPM works. You can even look at my post detailing my knowledge on the subject, I just didn't really factor in haste for simplicity since I didn't have the time.

    How are you modeling rentaki's soul charm with your spreadsheet?

    Also you are modeling bad juju with a ~100 second proc interval while you modeling the rune with a ~63 proc interval. So haste is somehow increasing the rune's proc interval when it should be decreasing it.

    On the spreadsheet Bad juju has =(1-EXP(-0.5*(1+B21/100)*20/60)) for the PPM interval. The formula is ppm * haste * time since last chance / 60 (sec per min) and you have PPM * haste * 20 (time since last chance) / 60 (sec per min)
    The time since last chance to proc is not 20 seconds every time you have a chance to proc the trinket. It is capped at 10 seconds so that's impossible. If you are factoring in the down time then you did it wrong and it is valuing bad juju higher than it's supposed to be. I think you should go back and recheck the way your spreadsheet is modeling the trinkets.
    That formula is for uptime, not pure proc chance. The thing with Juju is, it can overwrite the proc with previous one. At same time, both Rune and Renataki have ICD, so can't overwrite - that's why formula for them is different.

    The math for calculating uptime was done by Hamlet and Theck, here is the math explanation
    Simply put, trinket with PPM and no ICD uses completely different formula (Poisson distribution), since part of proc can be wasted.
    Last edited by Thiron; 2013-02-27 at 09:26 AM.
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  12. #152
    So can we get a sort of wrap up on how things are looking from the number crunchers so far?

    Normal modes in 5.2
    BM Trinket
    1:
    2:
    SV Trinket
    1:
    2:
    MM Trinket
    1:
    2:

    Then BIS for heroic modes.
    BM
    1:
    2:
    SV
    1:
    2:
    MM
    1:
    2:

  13. #153
    I wouldn't be surprised if Rune becomes BiS for bears. But for hunters... hmm not so sure.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by jasonleekungfu View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if Rune becomes BiS for bears. But for hunters... hmm not so sure.
    It's BiS for a bunch of classes, I'm personally gonna wait with getting it even if it does end up being the best for us.

  15. #155
    Femaledwarf added the trinkets recently. Simming them at the moment has led to spectacularly underwhelming results.

    I simmed the trinkets individually using 535 gear (4pc tier, nontier pants), BM spec, and these are my results. I prioritized crit > haste = mastery just to favor trinket procs.

    2/2 H Bottle - 10618 dps
    2/2 H Terror - 10229 dps
    2/2 Relic - 10030

    H Juju - 9764 dps
    H Rune - 15637 dps
    H Talisman - 10944 dps
    H Rentaki - 9570 dps
    Valor Trinket- 10097 dps

    This tells me that either these trinkets are pretty lackluster for us compared to lesser trinkets (aside from Rune) or Zeherah's modeling is off.

    Valor trinket has way too much hit on it. This trinket put me significantly (800+ rating) over hit cap that I couldn't reforge out of.

  16. #156
    Rune is def the worst trinket and has been proven to be terrible for hunter, so however you got those numbers, i wouldn't wont on it too much. Keep in mind that sims are fairly inaccurate.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Woobels View Post
    It's BiS for a bunch of classes, I'm personally gonna wait with getting it even if it does end up being the best for us.
    Well I'm just imagining lol. Hunter's secondary stats have been close to each other. But bear is the one that you can definitely tell the difference. Crits being OP + bonus from bear form.

  18. #158
    Rune sims so high because it works directly against Zeherah's modelling. You won't get proper numbers from FD with the rune, need to wait for simcraft to model it.
    Basicly, the spreadsheet averages out all the stats you gain from it over the fight, meaning at no point is it modelling you with zero haste or mastery, but a lower overall amount, etc...

  19. #159
    the more i think about the run the more it might be worth it.... however losing all mastery on SV means that we lose north of 20% on all out magical abilties for the additional crit. which is not bad.

    however as far as BM goes we will lose 40+% pet damage to gain the crit so its a lesser increase in overall damage... lose 40% on KC to gain 100% it is an increase but just not as much of one.

    overall it seems that is you don't use the rune the valor trinket and the H Terror are BiS... it just seems kinda off to me.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis003 View Post
    the more i think about the run the more it might be worth it.... however losing all mastery on SV means that we lose north of 20% on all out magical abilties for the additional crit. which is not bad.

    however as far as BM goes we will lose 40+% pet damage to gain the crit so its a lesser increase in overall damage... lose 40% on KC to gain 100% it is an increase but just not as much of one.

    overall it seems that is you don't use the rune the valor trinket and the H Terror are BiS... it just seems kinda off to me.
    I don't know what gear you are running with, but the rune takes all our mastery rating away. this excludes base mastery and mastery buff, so what you are losing is the mastery on gear. which in my case (as SV) is maybe 3k, ak 5% magix damage, not 20%, same as BM, you won't loose all the 40% pet damage increase you have, only that part on gear. and you won't be getting 100% of a stat from the procc.

    As we still have a decent amount of haste+mastery baseline+buffs, I do think it will be nice to get a nice crit boost, or maybe even mastery boost (timed with BW as BM)

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