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  1. #1

    Elemental PVE - What the heck am I doing wrong? :(

    Ive been raiding as elemental shaman (resto offspecc) since Wrath of the Lich King. N

    Never before have I felt it so painful and at unease when raiding. I have been watching elemental dps videos, reading up on the class etc to make sure I am 120% updated on the best rotation and so on.

    Still I find myself usually it at the bottom in my 10man group. Its not fun when people are commenting on it. Like "Hey, whats up with your dps?" Its the first time that never happened to me. I was on top on Baleroc Heroic in Firelands for example. Ive never had this issues before.

    I have good latency, around 40 ms. I use WeakAuras to keep track on every single cd (long and short) that even in minor ways affect my dps.

    For order sake I will write down what I do for my rotation (in order).

    1. Flame Shock on target.
    2. Lava Burst.
    3. Elemental Blast.
    4. Searing Totem. (If Elemental on CD)
    5. Spam LBs.
    6. Use Earthshock at 6-7 stacks unless there is less than 5 seconds before Flame Shock is running out on my target.

    For pulling I do this:

    1. Prepot
    2. Flame Shock on target.
    3. Elemental Blast.
    4. Spaming my "Nuke Macro" which pops up: Ascendance - Blood Fury (Orc Racial) - Stormlash - Fire Elemental (Only BL if we BL at start)
    5. Spam Lava Bursts untill Ascedance is over. Then goes to normal dps priority.

    I stack for INT, then HASTE, then Mastery (keeping hitcap at 15% ofc).

    I am at 496 ilevel. I have almost around 23% haste. My LB has a 1.68 cast time under normal conditions.

    Yet, at most fights I pop up to 160k during pull because of all cds are popped. But falling down to around 72k.

    Sometimes ofc, when I have to dodge raid mechanics or something I might forget to pop a searing totem now and then, but its rare. I shouldnt loose 30k over stuff like this.

    I usually end up at 72k-75k-80k. Which keeps be above tanks but equally geared guildies of mine who are Shadowpriest, Locks, Hunters, Rogues are at 90k-120k at the end of the fight. Thats sometimes a 40k difference on even gear.

    I want to run under my bed and cry. I try to convince my guildmaster that Elemental is not up there with Affliction etc, but I must to what I can to increase dps anyway.

    I want to link armory but I cant log into wow-europe it seems. My nick is Ioneye on Ragnaros EU.

    Please help. This is an act of desperation.

  2. #2
    Ele is just in a really bad place in single target pve atm. I've been in the same position as you this expac : / i know the pain.
    Quote Originally Posted by -Ethos- View Post
    I literally die every time i see people using literally wrong.

  3. #3
    If your guild master is telling you to keep up with an aff lock then he has to do some research himself, Aff is one of the top dps specs (Depending on fight) No way ele can keep up with that, your rotation seems spot on its really just the spec atm, Its not even like ele is all that bad, it just pales in comparison to most other dps specs. Give it time, our dps will rise eventually.

  4. #4
    Precast EB. ie, prepot when the count's around 2 so your EB's in the air as the pull happens. Then I usually do Ele -> SL -> FS -> LvB -> (LvB again if LS procs) Ascendance -> Rotation. I don't particularly care for "nuke" macros, though macro'ing BF to your Ele isn't a bad idea. Gear wise I don't see anything out of the ordinary, though I personally have had better experience focusing on Int and Mastery over Haste. (However, I am using EoT.)

    I found some of your logs. Looking at your recent Zorlok kill, you only had a 88% uptime on FS and only cast EB 17 times (at around a 20 second interval). Improve that. That said, it's hard to say much about Ele single target. We're not in a terrible spot, but we're certainly not Affliction Warlocks or Mages. I feel like I'm pulling weight in my 10M, but I also have a 488 ilvl Arcane Mage alt that pulls DPS that's almost identical to my Shaman's @ 501.

  5. #5
    I am at 496 ilevel. I have almost around 23% haste. My LB has a 1.68 cast time under normal conditions.

    Yet, at most fights I pop up to 160k during pull because of all cds are popped. But falling down to around 72k.
    that doesnt seem right at all; im 482 as arcane mage and im hovering at 76-82k on a single target fights.

    are you fully gemmed and chanted?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogabr View Post
    arcane mage
    You can beat ele with arcane mage even with crappy gear....single target.

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Raugnaut's Avatar
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    There was one shaman I raided with that managed to do about 100k sustained in around 5 ilvls lower then you. He had haste=mastery, rather then haste>mastery. Was 20k above all other shamans in the group (there was generally 2) with about 1-2 ilvl difference. He also had about double the Lava Burst usage then the other 2, consistently.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  8. #8
    Yes, I have everything done there. Raided for 8 years so I kinda know what I am doing in the gem and enchant department area.

    We have a 470 mage in our group who is new to our group, he is even with me at the moment.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 02:27 AM ----------

    Maybe I should reforge more Mastery. Even though Ive browsed alot of people on the armory they all seem to reforge for haste. But its worth a try.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 02:30 AM ----------

    The zorlok kill was on normal mode where we laugh went shout on vent at each other since the fight is so important to us. So I didnt actually do my really best there.

    Thanks for help anyway. Whast deos SL mean btw?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mussy View Post
    Thanks for help anyway. Whast deos SL mean btw?
    Stormlash totem.

    Starting at 3secs til pull I do: FireEleTotem > Prepot > EB > FS > LvB > (BL) > SL > Ascendance> Rotation

  10. #10
    Ele's are indeed very weak atm (around 10% under the median) but it doesn't look like we'll get any buffs for some reason sadly.
    You should sim yourself with reforge plots on haste and mastery. You can start with a quite big reforge amount to get a general feeling where you should be heading, and then make it smaller and smaller if you really want to maximize.
    The most dps gain will be from popping your cooldowns on the right moments in fights, popping it at the same time as your trinket procs without waiting too long etc.

    SL means stormlash, make sure you use it either before or right after ascendance (before is usually the better option, but if you have another shammy in the group, you can tell him to use it there.) Sadly Stormlash boosts others dps more then your own usually, but you should always think about the raid dps ofcourse.

    I would suggest to start with: Prepot+EB>Fire elemental>Flame shock(this way your fire elemental will attack directly and not stare at you for 5 secs)>Lava burst>stormlash>(bl)Ascendance hf

  11. #11
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telefonorm View Post
    Ele's are indeed very weak atm (around 10% under the median) but it doesn't look like we'll get any buffs for some reason sadly.
    They haven't started tweaking the numbers for 5.2 yet, they're still parsing through mechanical changes. They almost always do mechanical tweaks first, and THEN tweak numbers, so there's still time for Elemental's damage to get addressed.

  12. #12
    Ran some compares with your char compared to mine on some of your heroic fights (found your WoL files), now considering I am nothing special I noticed on certain fights while it seems like you have pretty much got the rotation it also seems like you are missing some procs and/or timing cd's at wrong times.

    With a guild of your progression I personally dont see a huge problem with your dps over the fights I looked at, yes you are bottom but I would also say the other players in your raid are playing their classes well (regardless of where ele is atm in the dps standings overall).
    In my raid I can sometimes hit top spot, but more often 2nd/3rd and I am under no illusion to the fact this is because I obviously play my shaman better than some of the other dps in my raid do their own classes however it is still good enough to get the heroics down.

    I still do not get why there is so much negativity atm regarding ele often from raiders who are not playing at the top of the game, elemental is good enough to play for most guilds, you simply have to be good at it tho, more so than some other classes right now.
    Keeping everyone happy is impossible.

    Kesandri Level 90 Shaman
    Chlóe Level 90 Death Knight
    Ashlinn Level 90 Mage
    Whats in the boX - EU Dragonblight - www.witb.eu

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kesandri View Post
    Ran some compares with your char compared to mine on some of your heroic fights (found your WoL files), now considering I am nothing special I noticed on certain fights while it seems like you have pretty much got the rotation it also seems like you are missing some procs and/or timing cd's at wrong times.

    With a guild of your progression I personally dont see a huge problem with your dps over the fights I looked at, yes you are bottom but I would also say the other players in your raid are playing their classes well (regardless of where ele is atm in the dps standings overall).
    In my raid I can sometimes hit top spot, but more often 2nd/3rd and I am under no illusion to the fact this is because I obviously play my shaman better than some of the other dps in my raid do their own classes however it is still good enough to get the heroics down.

    I still do not get why there is so much negativity atm regarding ele often from raiders who are not playing at the top of the game, elemental is good enough to play for most guilds, you simply have to be good at it tho, more so than some other classes right now.
    Thanks for the reply. The cd's issue is somewhat fixed now that I got weakauras configed. Before I had no such thing so when it got hectic I might have missed some cd's. Also in some fights you have to save the cds for when there is a nuke phase. One example is for example in Elegon. You cant just pop all your cds when they are off if you f.eks are in the phase of dps the pillars or the small sparks. You save them for the last burn phase.

    In Heroic Spirit Kings we save all our cds for the first transition to get the first boss down before the second casts Slight of Hand or what it is called.

    My negativity is that I get questions from other in my group why my dps is around 30k lower to them, and I dont have a proper answer for that question. I try say the class is not the best compared to others but they simply arent fully convinced of that.

    When we were working on Heroic Garajal I had to sit out one raid because they needed "better dps" since we where wiping at 1% for some time. Thats also a source for negativity.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 10:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They haven't started tweaking the numbers for 5.2 yet, they're still parsing through mechanical changes. They almost always do mechanical tweaks first, and THEN tweak numbers, so there's still time for Elemental's damage to get addressed.
    I guess I can read from your answer that there is issues that needs to be adressed. Do you think the Flame Shock change and change to elementals damage will make things any better?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    They haven't started tweaking the numbers for 5.2 yet, they're still parsing through mechanical changes. They almost always do mechanical tweaks first, and THEN tweak numbers, so there's still time for Elemental's damage to get addressed.
    Looking at recent Ghostcrawler tweets, i'm not convinced we're getting any tweaks at all. But hey, atleast our hex gets the new frog model.

  15. #15
    Since you are healing a lot of fights, it is not so easy to find a fight which can be analyzed. Some fights include dmg buffs, during some fights the logs are screwed etc.

    I just had a short look on your fight against heroic Spirit kings.

    You use Elemental blast, but only cast 20 during 500 seconds. That' one every 25 seconds (not even including EotE-Procs) - but the spell has 12 seconds CD. I usually try to avoid Elemental blast and use PE because I also mess up the rotation - but only with one every 15 seconds. Maybe u should consider changing your talents.

    You also have low uptime of FS on this boss (and on other bosses as pointed out above).

    Do you have hc Spirit kings also already on farm that screwing up is tolerated, as you pointed out above?

    If not, this might be a major issue - because 1 min 20 seconds without flame shock is too much wasted uptime.

    Therefore, you had 5 non-critical hits of LvB.

    You missed 70 seconds of fire totem uptime.

    No pots - fix that.

    Maybe others find more, but that is what I would try to correct.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mussy View Post
    For pulling I do this:

    1. Prepot
    2. Flame Shock on target.
    3. Elemental Blast.
    4. Spaming my "Nuke Macro" which pops up: Ascendance - Blood Fury (Orc Racial) - Stormlash - Fire Elemental (Only BL if we BL at start)
    5. Spam Lava Bursts untill Ascedance is over. Then goes to normal dps priority.
    I'm doing it this way:

    (Heroism/BL)
    Prepot
    FE
    FS
    LvB
    EB
    Macro with Ascendance & Spiritwalker's Grace with "/cast LvB" at the end
    SLT after Ascendance

    Dont forget to use Earth Elemental (I often use it after casting EB or a casted LvB, since I think its better for some reason). Your DPS is very low, 72k is what I'm doing with 498 on heroic protectors where I have to interrupt and purge. But affli/arcane are currently 10% above everyone else and elemental is 10% under the average.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 02:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    There was one shaman I raided with that managed to do about 100k sustained in around 5 ilvls lower then you. He had haste=mastery, rather then haste>mastery. Was 20k above all other shamans in the group (there was generally 2) with about 1-2 ilvl difference. He also had about double the Lava Burst usage then the other 2, consistently.
    Then its something about all the other DPS in your raid are horrible, especially if you compare 3 elementals to each other where 1 has doubled usage of LvB than the other two.
    Last edited by UcanDoSht; 2013-02-05 at 01:06 PM.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  17. #17
    Keyboard Turner Gosu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mussy View Post

    For order sake I will write down what I do for my rotation (in order).

    1. Flame Shock on target.
    2. Lava Burst.
    3. Elemental Blast.
    4. Searing Totem. (If Elemental on CD)
    5. Spam LBs.
    6. Use Earthshock at 6-7 stacks unless there is less than 5 seconds before Flame Shock is running out on my target.

    For pulling I do this:

    1. Prepot
    2. Flame Shock on target.
    3. Elemental Blast.
    4. Spaming my "Nuke Macro" which pops up: Ascendance - Blood Fury (Orc Racial) - Stormlash - Fire Elemental (Only BL if we BL at start)
    5. Spam Lava Bursts untill Ascedance is over. Then goes to normal dps priority.

    I stack for INT, then HASTE, then Mastery (keeping hitcap at 15% ofc).

    I am at 496 ilevel. I have almost around 23% haste. My LB has a 1.68 cast time under normal conditions.

    Yet, at most fights I pop up to 160k during pull because of all cds are popped. But falling down to around 72k.
    Ele is weak at the moment. so don't expect to be up the top or even keeping up with many people in your group.
    On stat weights I am using a more balanced ratio of haste and mastery and am liking it quite a lot.
    Are you getting FPS lag or anything on burn phases? 160k during a burn phase seems a bit low to me but around 70k seems fine-ish for the rest of the fight. Optimising the use of our CDs is vital as we are so dependent on them. Ensure you are using them at times you get the most out of them.
    Make sure you are casting LB when you are moving,
    On pull I personally like to prepot and precast EB. And if you want to be super optimal I would change the order of your "Nuke Macro". Popping ASC first would waste some uptime while you place Stormlash and FE. I personally like to have searing down before the pull (it usually gets an attack in before I FE). So pre pot > EB> FS > LvB > FE > BL > SL > ASC.
    Basically I am just repeating what everyone has said. Refine your play, make sure you have solid 95%+ uptime on FS, 100% uptime on FE/Searing, EB as close to on CD as you can, use ES as best you can (try not to waste charges or cause your FS to drop), don't cancel casts for LvB procs, don't wait for EB or ES to come off CD (always have something casting).
    Good luck with it. Keep working at it.

  18. #18
    The Patient
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    Well i have 497 ilvl and i'm doing the pull like:


    1: Prepot (3-2 secs from the Countdown)
    2: Elemental Blast (2-1 secs from Countdown, so it hits on the pull)
    3: BL + Stormlash Totem
    4: Flame Shock
    5: Lava Burst
    6: Fire Elemental Totem
    7: Ascendance
    8: Lightning Bolt

    Then after the First flame shock is over i'm going for the normal rotation with some own flavour:

    1. Searing Totem (If Elemental on CD)
    2. Flame Shock on target.
    3. Lava Burst(if Lava Surge)
    4. Elemental Blast
    5. Lava Burst
    6. Spam LBs.
    7. Use Earthshock at 5-7 stacks unless there is less than 5 seconds before Flame Shock is running out on my target.

  19. #19
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mussy View Post
    I guess I can read from your answer that there is issues that needs to be adressed. Do you think the Flame Shock change and change to elementals damage will make things any better?
    No, I don't. I've been arguing that we needed about a 10% bump to our DPS, ideally focused mostly on our sustained damage abilities rather than increasing our burst potential (mostly for PvP pressure issues than PvE), since the beta, when GC announced that Stormlash wasn't factored in to our valuation as a spec. I'm not trying to say "our damage is/will be fine", I'm just pointing out that they haven't DONE the numbers tuning yet, so you can't really complain that they haven't tweaked our DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by WeedCrawler View Post
    Looking at recent Ghostcrawler tweets, i'm not convinced we're getting any tweaks at all. But hey, atleast our hex gets the new frog model.
    He's been pretty mum about us having issues, outside of one tweet back in December. I'm not expecting changes along the lines that I think we need, to be honest; I've been making an argument for a 10% bump since the beta, and it's gone untouched since then. And I think the raidbots data has borne me out on that; we're just about 10% behind the median DPS, overall.

    So no, I'm not saying "everything is fine, keep calm and carry on". Just that you need to wait until the number tweaking's being done before you can say that we aren't getting number tweaks.

  20. #20
    Ive managed to pull your numbers. my item level is less then yours (484) but the thing is...i ignore my GM and do my own thing. unless it would completely screw the raid up and ive told her this ill do things my way just to max out my dps...bosses like say sprirt binder. i showed her my logs and now i dont go in the spirit realm at all..why? because i lose around 25k dps. its really about your play style and what can be ajusted.
    my friend code...

    5241-1925-7760 name toasty

    up for battles ...after 10/18/2013

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