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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by FatRastafarian View Post
    Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't paleo practically keto? In the long term, keto and other variations have drastic effects on metabolism.
    Yes you can gain muscle on a deficit ... If you have never done this before. On the odd chance, someone with a lot of LBM going on a cut would be extremely lucky to gain size. Seeing as its do difficult it's best to just lift heavy to maintain all the gains you made, but of course you will lose LBM. It's inevitable.
    No it's not only keto. Keto is just a part you can do every so often if you'd like. Paleo is mostly eliminating processed foods and refined sugars from your diet.

  2. #82
    wow there's allot of replies, I will read through them all, and update anything that's been asked or need addressed

    Thank you
    Last edited by mullermilch; 2013-02-11 at 01:32 AM.

  3. #83
    I only got though the first few pages and stopped as they turned into a argument, so I'm not sure if anyone has actually told you THEIR experience rather then what they read online. I'm going to.

    I was 240lbs at 6'3" at the start of this year. I'm 29 years old and decided I'd make a change. Keep in mind I wasn't going only for weight loss, but also getting in better shape, especially cardio shape.

    I started a diet that I could live with. Still good food, but not tacobell every day. For breakfast I'd either make a smoothie with frozen fruit, yogurt, soy milk, OJ, and spinach ( it's really good). Or I'd have a egg with wheat toast. Lunch was a salad. I enjoy cooking so I messed around a lot and have made some awesome salads. Buffalo chicken caesar, bleu cheese and pear, ham with honey dijon. Sometimes I'd make a pita instead. Point was light meal that I enjoyed. For dinner I would allow myself to eat what I wanted. Most of the time I didn't want to cheat myself and I'd still eat healthy, but I had the option to indulge if I wanted and that made it a lot easier. Fruit for a snack.

    For working out it was lifting 3 days a week and cardio 2 days a week. My lifting days were based around interval training. Light weights, lots of reps, pushing myself to get my heart going. (I learned it some years back from a Colombian I worked with that was in their military, I find it similar to P90X +crossfit). For cardio I have a park next to my house that is circled with a mile long sidewalk, so it was walk/jog the 3 blocks, run a mile, walk/jog back.

    I'd also adjust my died to my workouts that day. If I was going to lift I'd make sure I had protein, on days off I didn't worry as much (maybe no meat in a salad).

    Now here's my reasoning for doing this... I could do it, and after 4-5 days I WANTED to do it. It worked for ME. I wasn't trying to follow some routine I read about. I didn't have to watch a video and follow along or use a worksheet. I could listen to music, do as I felt, and learn new ways to cook in the process. If I wasn't feeling it that day, maybe I'd just jog the whole mile. Maybe I'd workout for 15 min instead of 30. Other days maybe I'd do 2 miles and 45 min, or cardio and some lifting in the same day. It was on my schedule.

    As for the results they were pretty quick. First thing I found was I wasn't tired during the day. Furthermore I was tired and going to bed at 10-11pm instead of 1-2am and was up at 7am every morning (my wife hated that part). Also I couldn't ear near the amount I was used to after 2-3 weeks. A cup of pasta with some chicken would fill me up, not a large plate. And finally so far I've lost 15 lbs in 5 weeks.

    Try and find something that works for you. Sure use the internet and other people to get ideas of what worked for them, but tailor a routine that works with your lifestyle and what you want. That's what I had to do to finally find something that I want to keep doing instead of giving up after a month or so. I changed my daily life, I didn't just add something to it and work around it.

  4. #84
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lockstatus View Post
    What?! Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but are you suggesting that cardio is useless/possibly detrimental for losing weight? Gaining/losing weight is SOLEY cals in vs cals out for like 95% of the population (purely made up stat but cals in vs cals out doesn't work equally for those who have thyroid problems, contest preppers and another select few of the general population). If you are in a caloric deficit, you WILL lose weight. It doesn't matter where the caloric deficit comes from, whether it's actually eating less or doing hours of (boring) cardio, if your calories out > calories in, you will lose weight. You can eat donuts and french fries all day(don't do this!) if you want, but if you keep under maintenance consistently the you will lose weight.

    Cardio is simply another tool to create that deficit.

    If you do cardio, gain weight and complain you gain weight, that's 100% on you not maintaining a deficit, not because cardio = weight gain.
    A few points.

    1. If you read what I wrote instead of getting outraged by your assumptions being challenged, you'll notice that you're arguing against something I didn't say. I never said anything about calories in/out. I said weight loss, which is a complicated phenomenon.

    2. Following on to that: while the calories in calories out model is true in the general thermodynamic sense, it's also widely misapplied. The human body is not a bomb calorimeter. It's a black box with the ability to regulate energy usage and energy requirements in a way that is completely out of the control of the individual. For instance, exercise can increase hunger, especially in women. An individual already operating at a calorie deficit is probably hungry already. Adding additional hunger from exercise can cause a break in dietary discipline that can negate the effect of calorie restriction. Over the long term, this can and does result in inefficient weight loss and even weight gain.

    3. Black box case in point: if what you're saying is accurate, then weight loss through exercise alone should be possible. For the vast majority of people it isn't. This is pretty well established. My name isn't google, so I'm not going to look it up for you, but if you're interested there are myriad studies that show that exercise in general and cardio in particular does not produces the expected results in overweight and obese individuals. Moreover, all exercise should be equal. 300 calories on a stationary bike and 300 calories doing HIIT should produce the same result. They don't. Why? Again, black box. The human body accesses stored glycogen for certain types of exercise and stored fat in others. Guess which one cardio tends to use? Glycogen.
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    2. Following on to that: while the calories in calories out model is true in the general thermodynamic sense, it's also widely misapplied. The human body is not a bomb calorimeter. It's a black box with the ability to regulate energy usage and energy requirements in a way that is completely out of the control of the individual. For instance, exercise can increase hunger, especially in women. An individual already operating at a calorie deficit is probably hungry already. Adding additional hunger from exercise can cause a break in dietary discipline that can negate the effect of calorie restriction. Over the long term, this can and does result in inefficient weight loss and even weight gain.
    So one exercises and as a result gets hungry. Then they overeat and get fat. So now you blame exercising for getting fat and don't exercise anymore? Don't blame exercising on getting fat because you cannot display self-control. Just because you are hungry doesn't mean you NEED to eat.

    3. Black box case in point: if what you're saying is accurate, then weight loss through exercise alone should be possible.For the vast majority of people it isn't.
    But it is if you maintain a caloric deficit. If you eat exactly how you eat now and accurately and consistently burn xxx cals through exercise every day, then you will lose weight.

    Moreover, all exercise should be equal. 300 calories on a stationary bike and 300 calories doing HIIT should produce the same result. They don't. Why? Again, black box. The human body accesses stored glycogen for certain types of exercise and stored fat in others. Guess which one cardio tends to use? Glycogen.
    A calorie lost because of exercise = a calorie lost because exercise. How does 300 cals burned doing HIIT not equal 300 cals burned during steady state? If you are not accounting EPOC then of course they are not "equal". If you burn 250 cals on the stationary bike and another 50 cals due to EPOC and burn 200 cals doing HIIT and 100 cals (all made up numbers...I think EPOC for steady state is 7% ? and for HIIT is 14%?) then you still burn 300 cals so not sure where you were going with that.

    I said weight loss, which is a complicated phenomenon.
    It's not very complicated if you can count calories. Cals in vs cals out not that hard.
    Last edited by Lockstatus; 2013-02-11 at 02:42 AM.

  6. #86
    Asians don't only eat white rice. They use to eat mostly fresh fish. Now more and more of them are eating a lot of processed goods and as a result obesity is becoming a problem.

  7. #87
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lockstatus View Post
    So one exercises and as a result gets hungry. Then they overeat and get fat. So now you blame exercising for getting fat and don't exercise anymore? Don't blame exercising on getting fat because you cannot display self-control. Just because you are hungry doesn't mean you NEED to eat.
    Maybe in your world where humans are apparently beings of infinite discipline adding more hunger to a scenario where somebody is already using willpower to suppress that particular stimulus is immaterial. In the real world, that's a relevant consideration.

    But it is if you maintain a caloric deficit. If you eat exactly how you eat now and accurately and consistently burn xxx cals through exercise every day, then you will lose weight.
    Prove it.

    A calorie lost because of exercise = a calorie lost because exercise. How does 300 cals burned doing HIIT not equal 300 cals burned during steady state? If you are not accounting EPOC then of course they are not "equal". If you burn 250 cals on the stationary bike and another 50 cals due to EPOC and burn 200 cals doing HIIT and 100 cals (all made up numbers...I think EPOC for steady state is 7% ? and for HIIT is 14%?) then you still burn 300 cals so not sure where you were going with that.
    Because they don't access the same energy store. If your goal is fat loss, burning up glycogen and then replacing it and then burning it up again doesn't help you.

    It's not very complicated if you can count calories. Cals in vs cals out not that hard.
    Uh huh. So, explain this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22855277
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  8. #88
    This has become a flame fest for the most part lol, I'm only going with self experience and what I've learned:
    Was 258lb at 5'8". Dropped down to 130. 9%bf, abs were showing just due to low amount of muscle but even still it's unimpressive. Skinny guy with abs is like fat chick with huge tits, nothing special. Bulking up over a year I went up to 175, I was lucky if half of that was muscle then I went on a cut. On my cut I went on a 300-500 deficit, consuming 2000 on rest days and 2200 on lifting days. Outside of hitting my fat an protein requirements I was still a couple of hundred calories short of my intake so I would eat ice cream, full fat, and drink coke to meet my calorie intake. End result: 157lb hovering around 10%bf. far from huge but in process of bulking ATM.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by FatRastafarian View Post
    This has become a flame fest for the most part lol, I'm only going with self experience and what I've learned:
    Was 258lb at 5'8". Dropped down to 130. 9%bf, abs were showing just due to low amount of muscle but even still it's unimpressive. Skinny guy with abs is like fat chick with huge tits, nothing special. Bulking up over a year I went up to 175, I was lucky if half of that was muscle then I went on a cut. On my cut I went on a 300-500 deficit, consuming 2000 on rest days and 2200 on lifting days. Outside of hitting my fat an protein requirements I was still a couple of hundred calories short of my intake so I would eat ice cream, full fat, and drink coke to meet my calorie intake. End result: 157lb hovering around 10%bf. far from huge but in process of bulking ATM.
    Do you realise how much muscle 20 pounds is ?

  10. #90
    Your description of yourself was quite similar to me a few years ago. I was heavy and was in a depressed state so i started eating quite a bit then decided i wanted to get in shape. I tried a few diets but the one that worked the best was the low Carb diet. Was taking in roughly 20-25carbs sometimes a tad more later down the road on the diet. Obviously keeping the calorie count down as much as possible but eating pretty much what ever i want within the Carb count. i went from 273 to 195 minimal exercise. From the time you start the diet it takes about 3 days to enter the state where you start burning fat at an extraordinary rate. There were mornings when i woke up and weighed myself to see that i lost 3-4 pounds. But the average daily loss was roughly .8 pounds. When you first start the diet you go through a minor "withdrawl" and you get bad craveings but if you can get past those you are rarely even hungry during the day.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    Well, that's great for you, but it doesn't impact what the research says. The science is fairly unambiguous: the vast majority of overweight people either experience no change or an increase in body fat from cardiovascular exercise, even in combination with dieting. If 1 person out of 1000 can lose weight by either exercising or dieting and the other 999 can only lose weight by dieting, what's the better advice?
    I've yet to see conclusive evidence, I've seen some interesting studies, but nothing unequivacol.

  12. #92
    You're lying OP, it's really that simple.

    If what you say is true then you're doing everything correct, you're eating whole meats, you're eating complex carbs and you're overall eating a restricted calorie intake (which far too low btw as your BMR is over 2400).

    You're also combining this with a very heavy cardio regime which puts you at a further calorie deficit and is consistently draining the glycogen in your muscles and forcing your body seek other sources of energy (e.g. Fat).

    Your problem shouldn't exist.

    Especially when we factor in that your 5ft 9 and 272 pounds which makes you a inch taller than me and yet you weigh nearly 100 pounds more. The weight should be literally flying off you.

  13. #93
    eat less and be more active

    that's it.

    you don't need any special pills or diet or anything

    don't expect results overnight. make long term changes, and it will happen eventually.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaiara View Post
    then explain to me why lifting the same weights was getting easier and easier, but my weight stayed the same for weeks.
    Because of central nervous system improvement. You gain strength way faster than muscle. Muscle is hard as fuck to build for a male, now just understand it's like ten time harder for a women.

  15. #95
    I think detox products is very effective for weight loss. You can take it.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by brianvlink684 View Post
    I think detox products is very effective for weight loss. You can take it.

    Useless and a waste of money.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by GoodNewsEveryone View Post
    You're lying OP, it's really that simple.

    If what you say is true then you're doing everything correct, you're eating whole meats, you're eating complex carbs and you're overall eating a restricted calorie intake (which far too low btw as your BMR is over 2400).

    You're also combining this with a very heavy cardio regime which puts you at a further calorie deficit and is consistently draining the glycogen in your muscles and forcing your body seek other sources of energy (e.g. Fat).

    Your problem shouldn't exist.

    Especially when we factor in that your 5ft 9 and 272 pounds which makes you a inch taller than me and yet you weigh nearly 100 pounds more. The weight should be literally flying off you.

    I'm not lying, I just fucked up on the calories :P

    after going over my diet with a personal trainer we found that I was counting the calories wrong. and was only on 1300 or so.. so basically body is in starvation mode and holding on the the fat, this we have worked out a 1800 calorie diet and I will get that on the go tomorrow and see how that helps, I've even upped the exercise,, its now the cardio strength training like before, plus 45 mins on bike in the morning before breakfast.

    Then go for a walk, we have a nice big hill where I live about a 1 mile down and back up, then before bed another 45 minutes on bike.. all the training plus the new diet I hope I will start seeing some big numbers


    and thank you to every one who replied I read over all the posts and some very helpful info, Thank you I have put many tips to good use

  18. #98
    Firstly: You're eating 6 meals a day, which is useless. You shouldn't count your meal amount, count the calorie amount.

    Secondly: Never count out strength training.
    If you're only working out 1 hour a day, then you should do something simple:
    15 minutes of cardio as a warm up, hit your stride, sprint in the last 5 minutes.
    30 minutes of strength training. Lift weights. You don't have to lift HEAVY like others say, but you should lift. Best to work on one portion of your body at a time.
    15 minutes of cardio as a cooldown. Start strong and lower it.

    Studies show that cardio AFTER your weight training helps you recover faster and you feel more ready for the cardio afterwards.

    Third: Do not "eat paleo" or "do crossfit" or do anything other than eating clean. Cut out most processed foods, eat your caloric deficit every day. It's much easier to be at a deficit when you eat natural foods than it is when you eat processed foods. And don't cook with a bunch of oil! That is 9 calories per gram, it's pure fat.

    Fourth: Artificial Sweeteners have NOT been shows to slow down your metabolism. That is a myth. What some of them do is trick your body into thinking it has taken in calories, so your body starts to warm up to process those calories. Then you get hungry because there is no calories for your body to burn.

    Fifth: Work on your core first. That should be your #1 priority. Build your core, then your legs, then your arms for workouts. Arms are probably the least important thing, vanity muscles are trash. Work your core because that's where your power when you're lifting comes from. Can't do any lifts without your core being strong. Your legs are almost as important, you should definitely work those after core. You could mix legs and core work together if you like. But when you're first starting off, core is more important.
    Core is your torso/trunk.

    Let me find more myths in this thread to say they're wrong.


    Good news, I found more

    Do not do ketones, it's a fad diet that doesn't work. It just tells you "eat x amount of calories per day."

    Harzarka is 100% right about muscle gaining.
    YOU WILL NOT GAIN MUSCLE THAT RAPIDLY UNLESS YOU'RE ON STEROIDS
    THE MOST YOU WILL GAIN IN A YEAR, AS A BEGINNER, IS 20. AND THAT'S PUSHING IT.

    Lifting does not "tap" fat cells to be used, it burns the carbs that you have consumes beforehand (and the other calories) and then you start killing off fat. That's how you burn fat.

    Coffee is a great stimulant to use. It is also extremely low calorie and helps your body burn fat by itself. So does Dark Chocolate.
    Drink water while you're working out.

    Stay hydrated, drink plenty of water to keep your body working as it should. That's an issue people have. DO NOT DRINK YOUR CALORIES.

    Running > Biking > Walking.
    Sprinting > Jogging.
    Keep that in mind when trying to burn calories.

    Oh lord, I just read that Ketone post. Disregard EVERYTHING posted there.

    You can't out-exercise a shit diet.

    WHEN YOU EAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BURNING CALORIES OR WEIGHT LOSS. IT IS A PERSONAL CHOICE AND IT DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO CHANGE ANYTHING.


    Last page, let's see if there is more bullshit:

    Harzarka already took care of the bullshit here.

    Now, if that personal trainer is telling you to eat 6 meals a day, tell him he's a fucking idiot and should leave the diet plans to someone else. Honestly, I'm so tired of the bro-science bullshit LA fitness trainers spew.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 04:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mullermilch View Post
    I'm not lying, I just fucked up on the calories :P

    after going over my diet with a personal trainer we found that I was counting the calories wrong. and was only on 1300 or so.. so basically body is in starvation mode and holding on the the fat, this we have worked out a 1800 calorie diet and I will get that on the go tomorrow and see how that helps, I've even upped the exercise,, its now the cardio strength training like before, plus 45 mins on bike in the morning before breakfast.

    Then go for a walk, we have a nice big hill where I live about a 1 mile down and back up, then before bed another 45 minutes on bike.. all the training plus the new diet I hope I will start seeing some big numbers


    and thank you to every one who replied I read over all the posts and some very helpful info, Thank you I have put many tips to good use
    If your body hit a plateau or went into starvation mode, increase calories for a week, bring it up to 2200 or so. Then drop it back down to 1800, which is what your plan is. Exercise harder, as well.
    I told a friend of mine this and she went to a dietitian afterwards, he said the exact same thing.
    Last edited by Demonakat; 2013-02-18 at 10:03 PM.

  19. #99
    Demonakat.... I like you.

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