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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentman View Post
    i feel that warriors have too much burst for too long of a period when others have big burst for short periods of time. everyone says warriors are bad and getting nerfed close to cata state is pure rediculous.
    Warrior burst is similar to paladin burst, both hurt, both can be prevented, and both last for around the same amount of time.
    Mage burst and feral burst comes around quicker than either of these 2 classes, sure it isn't for long, but it is more frequent.

    Warriors were OP in 5.0, which everyone said during beta they would be, but Blizz would not listen. Instead everything went live, people went "OMG OP CLASS!!! MUST REROLL TO FOTM!!!", there then became many warriors. Warriors get nerfed, class isn't broken, there is no replacement FOTM, so those people stick with it - that is why you still see so many warriors around. Come 5.2 with the monk and rogue buffs, and additional nerfs to warrior (survivability and control nerfs), there should be a shift in numbers. Mid season people dont like to reroll unless a class is truly broken, and to ask for MOAR NERFS is blindly following the pack simply because you don't know how to avoid it.

    Warriors have never had actual control or survivability before MoP, and at the start they were given too much - gag order, shockwave, double charge / warbringer, defensive stance not restricting damage and giving 25% damage reduction and ofc second wind.
    Lets put this in perspective:
    Gag order - Removed.
    Shockwave - doubled CD as of 5.2
    Warbringer charge - Added to DR table, despite being a 3s stun, as opposed to many classes 4-5s stuns.
    defensive stance - 15% damage reduction as of 5.2 (coupled with overpower now having a rage cost restricts damage somewhat)
    second wind - a warriors Only heal, assuming they are not getting killing blows, and it also only takes them to 35% hp, which is just above execute range for some classes.

    Warriors did lose things they had before to gain some of these abilities - their root / aoe slow, must now choose between them for talent.
    Throwdown - an arms warriors previous stun of choice, and it was possible to get this and gag order back in cata, people dealed with that then.
    Blood craze / Old Second wind / Enraged regen - 3 healing abilities, now cut back into 1 talent choice. Blood craze would proc 1/2/3% healing on damage taken, second wind would recover health and generate rage whenever stunned/rooted, enraged regen was a baseline ability, now a weak talent choice - 60 rage cost to use without being enraged. It's a 10% heal with a 2%/s for 5s hot added on top, would be nicer for the % heal to be based on amount of rage - 100 rage = all up front heal, but that's for another topic.

    Warriors are going to defend their position because of the suffering of the end of cata - especially when compared to rogues. Mages have always been strong, and feral druids also. To have any one of those classes (especially) asking for warrior nerfs is just going to bait defense and calls of QQ.
    Last edited by allevia; 2013-02-17 at 04:34 AM.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Silentman View Post
    never said recklessness lasted 24 seconds. said avatar did, and avatar combined with recklessness is big bursts.
    Not that it matters but you claimed the banner lasts 6 seconds which is wrong. Funny also how you conveniently leave out that tfb gets completely removed but well again it's not like I expected anything different as pretty much everyone should see where you want this to go.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-02-17 at 04:20 AM.

  3. #83
    How do these troll threads last so long?

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    How do these troll threads last so long?
    The only trolls i see here are the obvious warrior players trying to defend 5.1 warriors. Either trolls or just play ignorant. Whatever fits you better
    This is slowly going out of hand tho so it should probably be shuw down asap.

  5. #85
    So everyone who disagrees is a troll... That's some serious debating skills right there.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    So everyone who disagrees is a troll... That's some serious debating skills right there.
    Putting words into other peoples mouth is also great debating skills i heard. Reporting this thread for closing since its not going anywhere.
    Im closing my sub on this so any answer from you wont be read by me. Good luck "debating" in the future. Cya!

  7. #87
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    As I have stated since 5.0, the main problem with Warriors is cooldown stacking. I suggested a nerf to Defensive Stance because 25% Damage Reduction whilst able to keep almost your normal rotation was fairly daft. However, they've taken it too far. With Overpower costing rage, sitting in Defensive Stance causing to be rage starved I believe fairly easily so Warriors will be forced into Battle Stance. So pretty much a 25% nerf to Damage Reduction there. Oh, and also Shockwave now being 40 Seconds for PVP (Let's face it, a 3's Team isn't going to stand on top of each other unless they're extremely bad, may have some use in 5's). Not expecting anything good for Warriors with 5.2 unfortunately, will be massacred by Rogues Would like to see Shockwave be Prot only again I think, and maybe replace the talent with Throwdown. Or buff Bladestorm for my Darkflight Wreckstorm ;D
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  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Frakchaw View Post
    Just by calling it the "swifty macro" you lost all credibility. ;/

    If you KNOW the burst can be high.. take percussions? It's easier than qqing on a forum.
    Well, in the arena community it is most commonly called "swifty". Try watch a couple of streams or go to arenajunkies, everyone calls it swifty. It is a joke towards swifty or something.

  9. #89
    [QUOTE=Silentman;20199794]
    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Warrior burst is not too high as other classes also burst as hard, and as such it is balanced.QUOTE]

    a lot of the other "bursty" classes mentioned are frost mages, fire mages, rogues, warlocks, hunters, ect... virtually everyone, HOWEVER. frost mage bursts within the small timer of deep freeze or frost nova, same with fire, rogues have 8 second burst with shadow dance, hunters have instant abilities that they depend to kill, same with warlocks and chaos bolt. warriors bursts lasts upwards of 20 seconds... this is why it can be simply avoided, or cc'd unless you are going to completely chain the warrior.
    if i could have 1 shot gcd bursts like mage and warlock i would gladly trade that for warriors weaker burst that only last for like 6 seconds on full power after that the flags gone.
    Last edited by nemerus; 2013-02-17 at 09:30 PM.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Broloth View Post
    AAAAAAAAAAAAACTUALLY, the only nerf that was reverted was the health decrease to second wind. Unless you don't count these as nerfs:

    -Defensive Stance now reduces damage by 15% (was 25%).
    -Shockwave now has a 40 second cooldown (was 20 seconds), and striking 3 or more targets will reduce its cooldown by 20 seconds.
    -Warbringer now reduces the target's movement by 50% for 15 seconds (8 seconds in PvP), in addition to its other effects. The 3 second stun/knockdown is now in the diminishing returns category for stuns (same as Shockwave and Storm Bolt), and not the proc stun diminishing returns category.
    -Taste for Blood has been redesigned. It now causes the Warrior to gain 2 stacks of Overpower (maximum of 5 stacks) when Mortal Strike deals damage, 1 stack when the target dodges, and no longer interacts with Heroic Strike. It now requires level 20 (used to require level 50).
    -Overpower now costs 10 rage.
    The following are all the official changes. The bolded are the nerfs - italics are buffs. General changes, that aren't direct buffs or nerfs, are regular font.
    Warrior
    The benefit of Haste from items and consumables has been increased by 100% for all Warriors.
    Bladestorm now provides immunity to disarm while active.
    Defensive Stance now reduces damage by 15% (was 25%).
    Shockwave now has a 40 second cooldown (was 20 seconds), and striking 3 or more targets will reduce its cooldown by 20 seconds.
    Second Wind now generates 15 rage (was 20 rage) over 10 seconds.
    Warbringer now reduces the target's movement by 50% for 15 seconds (8 seconds in PvP), in addition to its other effects. The 3 second stun/knockdown is now in the diminishing returns category for stuns (same as Shockwave and Storm Bolt), and not the proc stun diminishing returns category.
    Shield Barrier now scales approximately 10% less efficiently with attack power.
    Storm Bolt now deals 125% weapon damage (was 100%).
    Enraged Regeneration now costs 30 Rage (was 60 Rage).
    Deadly Calm has been removed from the game.
    Glyph of Incite no longer activates from Deadly Calm, and now activates from Demoralizing Shout instead.
    Glyph of Overpower is now Glyph of Die by the Sword. It increases the duration of Die by the Sword whenever Overpower or Wild Strike are used.
    Glyph of Death from Above no longer increases the damage dealt by Heroic Leap.
    Impending Victory will now heal the Warrior for 15% of maximum health when they have not slain an enemy (was 10%).
    Arms
    Taste for Blood has been redesigned. It now causes the Warrior to gain 2 stacks of Overpower (maximum of 5 stacks) when Mortal Strike deals damage, 1 stack when the target dodges, and no longer interacts with Heroic Strike. It now requires level 20 (used to require level 50).
    Slam now deals 220% weapon damage (was 190%) and now costs 20 rage (was 30 rage).
    Deep Wounds damage have been increased by 100% for Arms Warriors.
    Whirlwind now costs 20 rage (was 30) for Arms Warriors. The cost is unchanged for Fury Warriors.
    Overpower now costs 10 rage.
    Sudden Death now has a 25% chance to activate from Overpower instead of a 20% chance from auto attacks. In addition, using Execute makes Overpower free for 10 seconds.
    Fury
    Bloodsurge now reduces the Rage cost of Wild Strike by 30 (was 20), and its duration has been increased to 15 seconds (was 10 seconds).
    Protection
    The base damage of Shield Slam and Revenge has been increased by 150%, but these abilities now scale approximately 10% less efficiently with attack power.
    Unwavering Sentinel now improves the damage reduction of Defensive Stance by 10% for Protection Warriors.

    Warriors were buffed more than they were nerfed - now go cry elsewhere and educate yourself using the following link the the Official Warcraft Patch Notes.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/822...#class_warrior
    Deathknight's do it using disease, blood and the power of the unholy. Warlocks do it with dark demons by their side. Mages do it with summoned arcane powers. Druids do it using the forces of nature. Rogues do it through stealth, poison's, shadows and....from behind. Paladins do it by calling to the light for aid. Shamans do it with the help of the elements. Priests do it through the holy light.
    But warriors....
    Warriors just fucking do it.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    Warriors were buffed more than they were nerfed - now go cry elsewhere and educate yourself using the following link the the Official Warcraft Patch Notes.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/822...#class_warrior
    The length of your post doesn't change that you'd be better off taking your own advice first. Alone considering reworks of tfb or warbringer flat pvp buffs is absolutely ridiculous.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-02-18 at 01:35 AM.

  12. #92
    Here's how you try to deal with a Warrior who has got just a 0/2 Malevolent weapon.

    Warbringer charge:
    Barkskin, wait.
    He pops cooldowns, shockwaves.
    Trinket the shockwave, Disorienting Roar.

    If he's an idiot he'll trinket the roar, you instant cyclone him and keep him cloned as long as possible. If he isn't an idiot, he will wait it out and instead trinket the cyclone you are casting. You can now NS Cyclone, but it now only lasts 3,5 - 4 seconds or so. Meaning he has loads of CDs up time on you. What are you going to do? Typhoon? At this point you've taken fuckloads of damage as it is and have yet to have had more than 1, at most 2 GCDs free to heal yourself, which means Rejuv and maybe Swiftmend.

    Regardless of how you do it, you're going to be in incredible danger. From ONE DPS. And people wonder why there are so few healers in PvP when they defend this shit. I can deal with the stuns if I have to. I can deal with the mobility. But the insane CD stacking has to go.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Silentman View Post
    There was also a reverted nerf to stuns pausing second wind.
    However, i do not consider the nerfs made to shockwave nerfs to burst or survivability because shockwave still hits harder an any stun should
    Also, the nerfs made to taste for blood were merely a trade between being a high dmg proc, to a survivability proc by adding 5 seconds to die by the sword. Other nerfs such like defensive stance are a start... but the problem is if they didnt have so much burst, the survivability wouldnt be as big of a problem. And the stun dr should have been there to begin with.
    It's a high damage stun because it's a talent, not baseline, and competes with other talents such as Bladestorm and Dragon's Breath, both of which hit hard.

    Also, nice oversimplification on overpower extending die by the sword. Required to get those 5 seconds, the glyph, 50 rage, 5 GCDs, and luck for the procs. That's taking choices away during that time also, so it's not super likely to happen.

    You also seem to be overlooking the fact that survivability is supposed a problem. You're not supposed to be able to go 'Oh. you're hitting me? How interesting...'

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Woceip View Post
    It's a high damage stun because it's a talent, not baseline, and competes with other talents such as Bladestorm and Dragon's Breath, both of which hit hard.

    Also, nice oversimplification on overpower extending die by the sword. Required to get those 5 seconds, the glyph, 50 rage, 5 GCDs, and luck for the procs. That's taking choices away during that time also, so it's not super likely to happen.

    You also seem to be overlooking the fact that survivability is supposed a problem. You're not supposed to be able to go 'Oh. you're hitting me? How interesting...'
    Shadowfury is also a stun talent, yet it does not hit for 120k on 8 k resi targets( It;s rng but it has happened to me) If warriors would require any amount of skill again to play and I was getting outplayed or what not I can live with it. But just about any warrior can roflstomp any casters, except maybe sp or mage if played right.

    I agree people are QQing too much, The biggest imbalances in my opinion have always been mages, lets hope blizz takes away some stuff out of some classes toolbags or makes it impossible to chain, warr's cant cc and zerg. Druid and mages can and thats the problem in PvP we normalise the dmg without looking at whats at their disposal cc wise. Affli dmg is right where it should be, ït cant hit like a truck cause the cc is crazy as is. But getting rogues and mages doing top damage with their amount of cc is stupid. Warrior are really strong 1v1 and it biases players to not look at how their utility is still somehwat limited ( It's good utility but not sick like some hybrids for instance)

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    The following are all the official changes. The bolded are the nerfs - italics are buffs. General changes, that aren't direct buffs or nerfs, are regular font.
    Warrior
    The benefit of Haste from items and consumables has been increased by 100% for all Warriors.
    Haste for pvp will be incredibly worthless, not to mention that it's actually only 50% on the PTR, it just hasn't been updated on this list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    Bladestorm now provides immunity to disarm while active.
    Shockwave will still be taken as it is a cc+damage. Warriors already have 50% Disarm reduction thanks to 2set. This will only benefit gimmick teams (bloodbath+Bladestorm and team aoe).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    Defensive Stance now reduces damage by 15% (was 25%).
    Shockwave now has a 40 second cooldown (was 20 seconds), and striking 3 or more targets will reduce its cooldown by 20 seconds.
    Second Wind now generates 15 rage (was 20 rage) over 10 seconds.
    Warbringer now reduces the target's movement by 50% for 15 seconds (8 seconds in PvP), in addition to its other effects. The 3 second stun/knockdown is now in the diminishing returns category for stuns (same as Shockwave and Storm Bolt), and not the proc stun diminishing returns category.
    The slow is a buff, however since this is on DR with shockwave, this is an overall nerf for pvp. 3 second stun is definitely worth way more than a 50% slow for 8 seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    Shield Barrier now scales approximately 10% less efficiently with attack power.
    Storm Bolt now deals 125% weapon damage (was 100%).
    This is a PvE buff, as the major emphasis is that it deals 500% instead of 400% on targets immune to stun. It's unlikely someone will take Stormbolt over Avatar for PvP as it doesn't deal much with burst (125% weapon damage is a little more than 1 heroic strike and it's stun is on dr with Shockwave and Warbringer).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    Enraged Regeneration now costs 30 Rage (was 60 Rage).
    Enraged Regeneration is free when Enraged, which means that this isn't really a buff. Not to mention people will still take Second Wind over this, since it's a 10% heal + 10% over 5 seconds (20% heal on a minute cd isn't much).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    Deadly Calm has been removed from the game.
    Not sure if you know this, but making Heroic Strike NOT cost 10 less when bursting, allowing more abilities that dump rage, is a nerf for pvp, since kills are usually done in bursts (especially for warriors, since this thread is about warrior burst).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    Glyph of Incite no longer activates from Deadly Calm, and now activates from Demoralizing Shout instead.
    Glyph of Overpower is now Glyph of Die by the Sword. It increases the duration of Die by the Sword whenever Overpower or Wild Strike are used.
    Glyph of Death from Above no longer increases the damage dealt by Heroic Leap.
    100% less damage from Heroic Leap during burst phases. On my warrior, this hits for about 35k non crit. People have complained that in arenas this has hit for almost 100k crits with cds up. This is a nerf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    Impending Victory will now heal the Warrior for 15% of maximum health when they have not slain an enemy (was 10%).
    Arms
    Taste for Blood has been redesigned. It now causes the Warrior to gain 2 stacks of Overpower (maximum of 5 stacks) when Mortal Strike deals damage, 1 stack when the target dodges, and no longer interacts with Heroic Strike. It now requires level 20 (used to require level 50).
    So, removing the 100% bonus damage from heroic strike and allowing you to Overpower 1 more time, which costs rage, is a buff? No sir. This is a pvp nerf, removing the burst potential of Arms and giving it to sustain. If someone lets a warrior sit on them the entire fight, they deserve to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lolretadin View Post
    Slam now deals 220% weapon damage (was 190%) and now costs 20 rage (was 30 rage).
    Deep Wounds damage have been increased by 100% for Arms Warriors.
    Whirlwind now costs 20 rage (was 30) for Arms Warriors. The cost is unchanged for Fury Warriors.
    Overpower now costs 10 rage.
    Sudden Death now has a 25% chance to activate from Overpower instead of a 20% chance from auto attacks. In addition, using Execute makes Overpower free for 10 seconds.
    Fury
    Bloodsurge now reduces the Rage cost of Wild Strike by 30 (was 20), and its duration has been increased to 15 seconds (was 10 seconds).
    Protection
    The base damage of Shield Slam and Revenge has been increased by 150%, but these abilities now scale approximately 10% less efficiently with attack power.
    Unwavering Sentinel now improves the damage reduction of Defensive Stance by 10% for Protection Warriors.

    Warriors were buffed more than they were nerfed - now go cry elsewhere and educate yourself using the following link the the Official Warcraft Patch Notes.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/822...#class_warrior
    So, for PvP, warriors were nerfed a lot. Many of the changes of the buffs you claim are for PvE and have little impact on PvP.
    Last edited by Recke; 2013-02-18 at 02:05 AM.

  16. #96
    I never understood posts like this..

  17. #97
    Mechagnome Shifthappens's Avatar
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    overall I blame 30% healing nerf, when it ws 15% i could still keep ppl up vs warrior dmg
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  18. #98
    well, i would honestly like to say thank you to all the posters here, i have learned a lot about warriors, where you guys are coming from, the new changes, and what i can do to avoid the burst. Although i still stand my ground that warrior burst is a bit annoying, (its hard to have a different perspective when everyone arena is warrior burst based, atleast on my battlegroup). BUT, i would like to thank everyone here for their contributions. I look forward to playing with everyone in future patches.
    P.s. this excludes you whoranzone you troll.
    happy pvping everyone.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Warrior burst is either equal to or under most if not all other classes in 5.2.
    source? and .. did you play all other classes on ptr?

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Eminus View Post
    source? and .. did you play all other classes on ptr?
    As of T14 BiS (5.1.0 patch) simcraft for opening burst:

    DK
    DWFrost: 270k
    2hFrost: 272k
    Unholy: 276k

    Druid
    Balance: 387k
    Feral: 257k

    Hunter
    BM: 316k
    MM: 284k
    Surv: 282k

    Mage
    Arcane: 385k
    Fire: 363k
    Frost: 394k

    Monk
    DWWW: 236k
    2hWW: 227k

    Paladin
    Ret: 326k

    Priest
    Shadow: 249k

    Rogue
    Assass: 296k
    Combat: 270k
    Sub: 314k

    Shaman
    Ele: 338k
    Enh: 320k

    Warlock
    Affliction: 327k
    Demo: 261k
    Destro: 261k

    Warrior
    Arms: 235k
    SMFFury: 275k
    TGFury: 260k

    Things to note is this is in full PvE gear, so the burst is going to be better than in PvP. Also, Warrior Burst in PvE is based on using Dragon Roar which does more damage than Shockwave, which is taken in PvP for the stun.

    Only other thing to take note of is "Burst" is based on how much damage a spec can do in a small window (otherwise it'd just be dps) as well as how high a DPE ability is. Demo locks have Chaos Wave which isn't used in PvE, but it's has a high DPE. Chaos Bolt has a 207k DPE. Warrior Execute has a high DPE, but outside of that, Arms' next highest DPE is Mortal Strike at 68k, which is assuming BiS 509 Sha Weapon for max weapon damage.
    Where is your source that post 5.1 warrior burst is too high? Pre 5.2, a 5 TfB stack Heroic Strike had over 200k DPE (also being off the gcd didn't help), but that was fixed with 5.1.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-20 at 03:17 PM ----------

    If you look at the changes into 5.2, many classes are getting buffs (Arms included) but Arms is getting in the terms of more sustain, less burst, since you no longer get bonus damage to your Heroic Strike during burst periods.

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