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  1. #1
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    The Dogma called Theorycrafting (LFR-healers)

    I decided to make this thread because something happened AGAIN when playing LFR.

    Today I went into LFR on my Holy Paladin and a random shaman-healer started to attack me.
    Last week this same thing happened with a retridin who 'claimed' that his mainspec was healing.
    They were making fun of me in the raid-chat because I gemmed and reforged items for Mastery.
    The entire raid long he was pointing out how I was bad because the 'guides tell us to go for spirit!'.
    It even got to a point where they were insulting me for it =/

    I fully understand what the guides say and why they want us to go for spirit.
    But I raid only LFR, I always keep people alive unless they really mess up, I almost always top the meters and I never ever go OOM.
    Isn't that proof enough that my gearing-style is good?

    So my question to you is:
    -Have you had people troll you during LFR like this?
    -How did/would you respond to it?
    -Are people really so dumb that they "worship the guides" and attack anyone who dares to take another path?

  2. #2
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    -Are people really so dumb that they "worship the guides" and attack anyone who dares to take another path?
    Yes. This shouldn't be surprising. If you're doing your job and not failing I see no reason to switch.

  3. #3
    Legendary! Blueobelisk's Avatar
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    People are stupid who think they're good because they copied the work someone else did. Think nothing of it. Not in LFR, at least.

  4. #4
    How does this make theory crafting "dogma"? How many minutes in the thesaurus did you take to find that word? This is just you and the people you raided with being misinformed, not theory crafting being wrong.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    How does this make theory crafting "dogma"? How many minutes in the thesaurus did you take to find that word? This is just you and the people you raided with being misinformed, not theory crafting being wrong.
    You're pretty much embodying what OP is talking about. First and foremost you're putting blind faith in theorycrafting communities who are not always correct. Their math is not always correct, and even though it often is correct math it is certainly sometimes misplaced -- as in, whatever the fashionable avenue of investigation is will be what most resources are devoted to. Of course a route that is well-researched will be the most maximized -- and you must consider that if every route were as deeply-scrutinized then perhaps a different path could have its own intricacies unearthed to the point where it could be found to be the mathematically-superior option.

    But, ultimately, the problem is that those who place their blind faith in theorycrafting are simply obsessed with doing things "right" as opposed to allowing for the myriad viable options. Especially in LFR, mathematical maximization is simply not necessary. Adhering so rigidly to a , yes, dogma to the point you're insulting others in LFR for not worshiping at the altar of Theorycraft is a sad state of affairs.

  6. #6
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vertex705 View Post
    Yes. This shouldn't be surprising. If you're doing your job and not failing I see no reason to switch.
    Ignoring them is quite easy.. But when people try to kick you for something as stupid as that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    How does this make theory crafting "dogma"? How many minutes in the thesaurus did you take to find that word? This is just you and the people you raided with being misinformed, not theory crafting being wrong.
    2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true.

    I called it a dogma because people see it as an absolute truth and attack people for not following it.
    Those people weren't misinformed, they attacked my for not following it.

    And my vocabulary is quite fine, I do not need a book to find words.

  7. #7
    Titan Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    That's retarded. If you don't go OOM, you don't need more spirit. You measure the amount of spirit you have by how easy/hard it is to keep your mana up. If you can manage with the amount of spirit you have, why add more? You won't need more until you do harder content.

    In fact, you'll heal better stacking int and your best secondary stat (or in some cases, focusing on your secondary stat) and in place of spirit, if OOM isn't a problem.

    And yes, some people in LFR are stupid as hell. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    Last edited by Adam Jensen; 2013-02-11 at 12:07 AM. Reason: clarification

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  8. #8
    Theorycrafting and maths are tools. Some people understand and know how to use them. Those that don't, treat them as gospel.
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  9. #9
    You are 100% correct OP. Theory crafting is only worth so much. In fact in many situations blindly following the theory crafters could net you a negative result (for example if you were missing the raid wide spell haste buff). Especially in LFR, if you aren't going OOM..... Well you don't really need more spirit do you?

  10. #10
    People are just retarded. I once got bitched at for throwing a bit of damage in when there was nothing to heal (5 man). How they can be this stupid is beyond me but it happens.

  11. #11
    Are you gemming for pure mastery? As in...are you placing nothing but pure yellow +320 mastery gems into your sockets? If so, then, honestly, you deserved to be called out on it. Why is your excuse, "Well no one dies (well you actually threw a "sometimes people die" statement in there) so why should I try to make myself better than I already am?"

    Do you think that because you've done the bare minimal amount of effort that is required into your job that you can just stop there? Theorycraft exists because people want to be able to play to the best of their ability. Some classes work better with certain synergies of secondary stats, while other classes work best when you just stack one. But if going oom isn't a problem for you on your holy paladin, then you should be gemming for pure intellect, NOT for mastery. You need to be matching sockets because as of MoP it brings for most classes and specs the most optimal use of their gem sockets.

    I just really think the problem here is you've gotten your feelings hurt because you probably know deep down you're doing things incorrectly, but don't really want to admit it. Not that it matters. Because if people are "mostly" not dying under your LFR watch, then why would it matter, am I right?

  12. #12
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    Are you gemming for pure mastery? As in...are you placing nothing but pure yellow +320 mastery gems into your sockets? If so, then, honestly, you deserved to be called out on it. Why is your excuse, "Well no one dies (well you actually threw a "sometimes people die" statement in there) so why should I try to make myself better than I already am?"

    Do you think that because you've done the bare minimal amount of effort that is required into your job that you can just stop there? Theorycraft exists because people want to be able to play to the best of their ability. Some classes work better with certain synergies of secondary stats, while other classes work best when you just stack one. But if going oom isn't a problem for you on your holy paladin, then you should be gemming for pure intellect, NOT for mastery. You need to be matching sockets because as of MoP it brings for most classes and specs the most optimal use of their gem sockets.

    I just really think the problem here is you've gotten your feelings hurt because you probably know deep down you're doing things incorrectly, but don't really want to admit it. Not that it matters. Because if people are "mostly" not dying under your LFR watch, then why would it matter, am I right?
    Calling out is one thing, being treated like a pile of human garbage is another. No matter what any player does, unless they're being a jerk, makes that acceptable.

    Then again, seemingly, your comment here was a way around to make a bunch of assumptions in a way to go out of your way to assume the worst, and quasi-insult someone. So... whatever.

  13. #13
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    Are you gemming for pure mastery? As in...are you placing nothing but pure yellow +320 mastery gems into your sockets? If so, then, honestly, you deserved to be called out on it. Why is your excuse, "Well no one dies (well you actually threw a "sometimes people die" statement in there) so why should I try to make myself better than I already am?"
    No, ofcourse not Most socketbonuses are worth taking.

    And people only die if too many people make stupid mistakes at the same time, because it's either cast-time or GCD holding me back.
    I just didn't want to make the statement that I "never let people die", because that would be incorrect.
    People do not die if there is anything I can do to prevent it. << Better?

    I just really think the problem here is you've gotten your feelings hurt because you probably know deep down you're doing things incorrectly, but don't really want to admit it. Not that it matters. Because if people are "mostly" not dying under your LFR watch, then why would it matter, am I right?
    No, my feelings are "hurt" because some random nitwit was attacking me on my choices while I probably read more guides for this patch than he in his lifetime and now I was wondering if people had encountered the same problem and what they did with those in-raid harassment?

  14. #14
    There is nothing wrong with a Paladin going Mastery. If you don't need the spirit and aren't having mana problems, then you're doing fine.

    Fight fire with fire. Almost always the people that point things out like that in LFR have something horrendously wrong on their gear as well.

  15. #15
    well i dnt know much about proper holy paladin stats.

    but i know a friend of mine who mainly raids normal modes who focusses purely on mastery atm.
    and thats working out perfectly fine for him, considering LFR is a lot easier then that. i can hardly see anything wrong in a holydin going for mastery in LFR if he does part fine.
    the people dieing part where Servasus gets all huffy and puffy about is probally not even that much the OP fault.
    i seen too many people dieing while there being excellent healers in LFR cause they make such stupid mistakes that no amount of healing is going too keep them alive at those moments.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Asta View Post
    People are just retarded. I once got bitched at for throwing a bit of damage in when there was nothing to heal (5 man). How they can be this stupid is beyond me but it happens.
    I was in Madness on my disc priest and the dude who was a distant #5 on heals was yelling at me the whole encounter to "heal, heal!" After the wipe he said they needed to kick me because I was DPSing. I just ignored him and said nothing. So that's how I got kicked for being #2 heals.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Servasus View Post
    Are you gemming for pure mastery? As in...are you placing nothing but pure yellow +320 mastery gems into your sockets? If so, then, honestly, you deserved to be called out on it. Why is your excuse, "Well no one dies (well you actually threw a "sometimes people die" statement in there) so why should I try to make myself better than I already am?"

    Do you think that because you've done the bare minimal amount of effort that is required into your job that you can just stop there? Theorycraft exists because people want to be able to play to the best of their ability. Some classes work better with certain synergies of secondary stats, while other classes work best when you just stack one. But if going oom isn't a problem for you on your holy paladin, then you should be gemming for pure intellect, NOT for mastery. You need to be matching sockets because as of MoP it brings for most classes and specs the most optimal use of their gem sockets.

    I just really think the problem here is you've gotten your feelings hurt because you probably know deep down you're doing things incorrectly, but don't really want to admit it. Not that it matters. Because if people are "mostly" not dying under your LFR watch, then why would it matter, am I right?
    What if he was gemming pure mastery in LFR? I constantly experiment with different builds, rotational changes and gearing alterations in LFR. It's a brilliant tool for measuring real world performance for whatever changes you make. Gems are cheap and re-gemming is hardly difficult. Would I walk into a Heroic progression raid with an experimental setup? Generally no. But LFR is LFR. Personally I don't even bother inspecting others, unless it's the tank and he's getting hit like he's being pummelled by Mike Tyson.

  18. #18
    I did get a healer kicked from LFR this week for doing 10k Healing... Not sure how much healing you were doing but there always seem to be 2 healers not doing anything.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Ignoring them is quite easy.. But when people try to kick you for something as stupid as that?


    2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true.

    I called it a dogma because people see it as an absolute truth and attack people for not following it.
    Those people weren't misinformed, they attacked my for not following it.

    And my vocabulary is quite fine, I do not need a book to find words.
    No you misunderstand, most theory crafting is done under the premise of maximizing output in a standard raid situation. You seemingly don't understand, along with the people accusing you that it is for the most part designed around one scenario. Different environments lead to different variables lead to different results to get the most out of your character.

    Unfortunately for you, you're playing a healer and the only thing you can argue as a healer for the most part is the value of spirit versus throughput stats in a given time - you cannot argue the value per point of a stat because it can be calculated for pretty much every situation where you're not under the influence of an external buff effecting them. If you're in the right in this situation, good job, that doesn't give you the right to criticize something you clearly don't understand because others clearly don't understand it either.
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  20. #20
    I get that berating people because they are doing stuff wrong, or geared/gemmed/enchanted wrong is pretty much the opposite of what you should do.

    But, WoW's culture has twisted to a place where either you're:

    1) Terrible, and don't know it.. and other's defend you because it's "just a game".
    2) Terrible, and know it. But don't care because it's "just a game".
    3) Mediocre, and no one pays attention to you.
    4) Good, and don't pay attention to anyone else.
    5) Or you think you're good, and you are really just mediocre, and you just spend your time trying to "troll" people because you think you're something special.

    Most players fall into one of those categories. Of course there will be people that fall in the cracks, as those are sweeping generalizations.

    I know personally, I don't like being in raids with people that just simply aren't good. So I CHOOSE to not do LFR, even on alts. I hate seeing people afk the entire time, and others in full epics doing 40k dps... which I assume others do too. Which is probably where all the "hate" comes from, and they try to take it out on people that they think are holding them back. (Whether that is actually the case or not)

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