Page 10 of 11 FirstFirst ...
8
9
10
11
LastLast
  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by D-angeL View Post
    While Sylvanas actions following after the fall of the lich king were mainly evil and mad. She killed civilians and raised them into undeath leaving it up to them to either die or serve. But actually this isn't really an option as their souls were raped due to necromancy they would've gotten into the same void Sylvanas fears. She willingly sends their soldiers into that void too by starting new wars. She started to expand the war against Gilneas, against the leftovers of the Kirin Tor and the few leftovers near Western Plaguelands and of course against the Kingdom of Arathor. She has the knowledge that every forsaken that dies will enter the void, which most of the forsaken don't. If she wasn't evil she would have pushed towards peace or at least neutrality on these factions despite the pressure she was getting from Garrosh. Garrosh is half the world away and she still has her WMD. I think that it would be easy to defend Lordaeron from the orcs above the sea after liberating undercity from the Orcs left for watchovers having both a navy and also the plague.
    I doubt Gilneas would've started a war against the forsaken, nor the Kirin Tor. While that DK is leader of the military operations of the Alliance in Lordaeron I think she could've achieved peace with him too. Having only 1 possible war to fight against a weakened Garrosh who would've developed his 2 border war to a 3 border war (Theramore, Darnassus and Forsaken).
    Sylvanas didn't start the war against Gilneas. Garrosh appropriated the Forsaken troops while she was away.

    If it was as simple as necromancy, the Forsaken wouldn't have needed the Val'kyr in the first place. Necromancy damages the soul upon reanimation and the undead becomes slave to the person who raised it. It's unclear what method the Val'kyr use to resurrect people, but those resurrected have their souls intact. Sylvanas wasn't resurrected by Val'kyr. Her soul was reaped by Frostmourne and corrupted by Arthas.

    EDIT: Also, Val'kyr have to sacrifice themselves to resurrect Sylvanas; to bring her back from that tormenty vortex shit her soul goes when she dies. For everyone else, Val'kyr just escort souls to their corpses like Spirit Healers, except into undeath instead of full life. And only humans.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-02-13 at 09:07 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  2. #182
    People are saying Jaina is evil and crazy? What the hell guys? I mean, I'm a fan of Sylvanas and I'd say she faaar outranks Proudmoore on the crazy-evil meter.

    But yeah, you don't really have any right to criticize either of them until you've been killed then raised into undeath and forced to sack your own beloved homeland then left behind in a world that hates you for being what you are or you've had your whole city nuked and all of your friends and family killed in an instant after years of trying to fight for peace. If I were Jaina and the majority of the people I cared about had just been blown up by Garrosh I can't say with any conviction that I wouldn't have just ignored the pleading of Thrall and Kalecgos and drowned Orgrimmar. If I were Sylvanas I can't say that I wouldn't turn against the living and forcefully tear a place for my people and I to exist from their lands because I thankfully haven't lived through either scenario and I simply can't judge them for it. Why others think they're qualified to really baffles me.

    The purge of the Sunreavers from Dalaran was harsh but justified. You have to understand what it meant from Jaina's perspective. The Sunreavers swore to neutrality and there is irrefutable evidence that they aided the Horde in an act of aggression against the Alliance. If I discovered that the Sunreavers had a part in the theft of the divine bell for Garrosh I would have probably kicked every single blood elf out of Dalaran too. You cannot expect to sit in the comfortable position of neutrality when you're helping one side's cause. War doesn't work that way.
    "Lordaeron belongs to the Forsaken. Always and forever!"

    Perfection is so horribly dull, don't you think?

  3. #183
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,602
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    That's what maddens me. Everyone just pretends that never happened, but when you mention Forsaken, you always find a dozen enthuziasts bringing up the most obscure quotes and bits of quests to prove that they are worse than Scourge and Legion combined.

    You are talking about Vanessa? I don't quite remember her framing anyone or preaching false statements. Actually, she was quite right. She said she killed her adoptive parents herself.

    Anyway, it was Wrynn's responsibility to not let his people jump into the grinder. Doesn't this and Westfall show how little he actually cares about his people (while being awesome and shiny and wolfheart)?

    It's not about words, it's about actions. Her last words in the short story may be interpreted wrongly (apparently), but as one of the Forsaken, I see she cares greatly. As I said, she was in every undertaking of the Forsaken, as initiator or participant, very often intervening personally (actually more often than any other leader in the entire WoW). You make it seem like she would send her people to death at a whim, but in the end of the short story she does exactly absolutely totally the opposite, she arrives at the battlefield to not let her people die meaningless deaths.
    1. True.

    2. http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Propaganda She -flat out- frames you for murdering Two-Shoed Lou.

    3. Not -really-. he's not psychic how's he even supposed to know they're going? he's kind of running a country that's at war with the Horde. I mean I'm all for valid criticisms of him but this isn't one.


    4. Not on a whim, but if it would keep her alive? She'd kill them all without a thought. She's not on the battlefield because she cares about anyone, she's on the battlefield to make sure as few of her precious bulwark die as possible. Management of resources rather than any 'care'.


    5. She sent her people -into- meaningless deaths, god she walked into ever ambush Crowley and Ivar set up :\

    PS. I played a forsaken too, playing a race does not pigeonhole you into a view or out of one or whatever.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 10:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    "Then he blinked in astonishment: Lady Sylvanas was flanked on either side by the abominable Val'kyr, their shimmering bodies held aloft on translucent wings." Lydon is surprised by the presence of Val'kyr at her side. If she made her pact with them months ago, this would have been old news.

    Either way, she was absent when Garrosh commanded Lydon and the Forsaken army to attack Gilneas.
    Or she might just have not told anyone right away :\


    There are worgen defenders when Garrosh is attacking, that means that this is -after- the Gilnean starting zone.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  4. #184
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, Russia
    Posts
    8,425
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    2. http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:Propaganda She -flat out- frames you for murdering Two-Shoed Lou.
    Woah. I didn't remember that one. I stand corrected.
    3. Not -really-. he's not psychic how's he even supposed to know they're going? he's kind of running a country that's at war with the Horde. I mean I'm all for valid criticisms of him but this isn't one.
    Maybe. But then I remember him blaming Thrall for Varimathras' and Putress' uprising, saying it (along with the rest of "Horde's crimes") was Warchief's responsibility.
    4. Not on a whim, but if it would keep her alive? She'd kill them all without a thought. She's not on the battlefield because she cares about anyone, she's on the battlefield to make sure as few of her precious bulwark die as possible. Management of resources rather than any 'care'.
    That's still better and more effective than, say, Vol'jin. Is he even related to his Darkspears? If not for pre-Cataclysm liberation of Echo Isles, I wouldn't even know. In essence, her "cold calculating resource management" works better than anyone's hearty care. And on your assumption that she'd ditch them all at first opportunity I answer with an assumption that a situation lke that is too abstract to ever happen. Also, she's a ruler. Forsaking them all would mean she'd be left alone, and that is in no way a better position than in command of an army of followers. Even such powerful, nearly omnipotent entities like Sargeras, Old Gods and Titans surround themselves with followers, the more and stronger the better.
    5. She sent her people -into- meaningless deaths, god she walked into ever ambush Crowley and Ivar set up :\
    It was a tactical mistake, not cannon fodder tactics. The only way to stay infallible and not make any mistakes is to do nothing (in which many WoW characters succeed). Also, remember that quest where you and a val'kyr find Hillsbrad folks accepting Worgen curse and then slaughtering 50 of them while they try to swim to you... like cannon fodder.
    PS. I played a forsaken too, playing a race does not pigeonhole you into a view or out of one or whatever.
    It's just that their PoV is generally different and interesting. Especially in that they are actually doing what anyone would, with casualties, mistakes, losses, shady decisions etc. - the general idea is that they pay the price and leave consequences and footprints, the trait that many generic good races and characters conveniently lack.
    There are worgen defenders when Garrosh is attacking, that means that this is -after- the Gilnean starting zone.
    Bear in mind that a significant part of Gilneas starting zone takes place in the past.
    Last edited by Haven; 2013-02-13 at 08:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  5. #185
    Sylvanas biases all over the place,that's why.

    Excuse me, are you saying something? Nah, you can't tell me nothing

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Or she might just have not told anyone right away :\
    From page 5:
    "My three fastest ships have already been dispatched to the southern coast to divert the attention of the Gilnean capital. And even now I gather reinforcements from Deathknell."

    Apothecary Lydon cocked his head at her cryptic remark. So far as he remembered, nothing remained of Deathknell but a graveyard.

    More importantly, however, something had changed in his sovereign's presence. Her voice—always terrifying—now had a definitive edge, as though she spoke with the finality of gods. And what of those Val'kyr who hovered mutely beside her?

    "My lady," Lydon whispered. "Where have you been?"
    Okay, maybe she didn't fly directly to Gilneas from ICC. She stopped to deploy her ships and have most of the Val'lyr raise more Forsaken. The author framed the story such that Garrosh's attack on Gilneas is happening while she's at ICC.

    The only way Sylvanas could keep the Val'kyr secret is if she didn't start raising more Forsaken ASAP. It's highly unlikely she would delay raising more Forsaken given what she knows about the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    There are worgen defenders when Garrosh is attacking, that means that this is -after- the Gilnean starting zone.
    If that were the case, this is what would have happened:

    1. She attacked Gilneas.
    2. She used Plague.
    3. She went to the day spa.
    4. Forsaken got pushed out of Gilneas.
    5. Garrosh took over the assault.
    6. Sylvanas comes back just before a suicidal charge.
    7. Garrosh lets her take over again without mentioning anything about her previous use of Plague.

    No. Garrosh started the attack and Sylvanas finished it. The story shows Garrosh attacking the Greymane Wall. When Sylvanas arrives, she says "My three fastest ships have already been dispatched to the southern coast to divert the attention of the Gilnean capital." These ships are part of the Worgen starting zone and they haven't arrived yet.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-02-13 at 08:12 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  7. #187
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,602
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Woah. I didn't remember that one. I stand corrected.

    Maybe. But then I remember him blaming Thrall for Varimathras' and Putress' uprising, saying it (along with the rest of "Horde's crimes") was Warchief's responsibility.

    That's still better and more effective than, say, Vol'jin. Is he even related to his Darkspears? If not for pre-Cataclysm liberation of Echo Isles, I wouldn't even know.

    It was a tactical mistake, not cannon fodder tactics. The only way to stay infallible and not make any mistakes is to do nothing (in which many WoW characters succeed). Also, remember that quest where you and a val'kyr find Hillsbrad folks accepting Worgen curse and then slaughtering 50 of them while they try to swim to you... like cannon fodder.

    It's just that their PoV is generally different and interesting. Especially in that they are actually doing what anyone would, with casualties, mistakes, losses, shady decisions etc. - the general idea is that they pay the price and leave consequences and footprints, the trait that many generic good races and characters conveniently lack.

    Bear in mind that a significant part of Gilneas starting zone takes place in the past.
    1. k

    2. That's not really a comparable situation though. The farmers didn't go out and murder people in both armies in an important military operation and nearly summon a demonic invasion, and haven't been torturing people in their secret underground city. This is apple's and oranges.

    3. That's not really fair since that's more a matter of depiction than -character-.

    4. Fair enough. this is more an issue I take with people who try to portray her as a tactical genius, and that was probably because those worgen were feral and hadn't gone through the whole 'calmness' ritual yet.

    5. Thing is, the Forsaken haven't really -succeeded- at much in awhile, everything blows up in their face and it's kind of tiring, especially when it feels contrived or counterproductive and challenges why they're allowed in the faction to begin with. I'm fine with Forsaken sneaking into the enemy barracks before a battle and poisoning all the soldiers, what bothers me is them going into the barracks and eating all the kittens and cackling evilly while the enemy wakes up full of piss and vinegar to beat the tar out of them.

    6. Thing is Sylvanas was in Gilneas in the past, so Garrosh couldn't have -started- the thing while she was gone, at least not at the time of the short story, since she would've already been there.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 02:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    From page 5:

    Okay, maybe she didn't fly directly to Gilneas from ICC. She stopped to deploy her ships and have most of the Val'lyr raise more Forsaken. The author framed the story such that Garrosh's attack on Gilneas is happening while she's at ICC.

    The only way Sylvanas could keep the Val'kyr secret is if she didn't start raising more Forsaken ASAP. It's highly unlikely she would delay raising more Forsaken given what she knows about the future.


    If that were the case, this is what would have happened:

    1. She attacked Gilneas.
    2. She used Plague.
    3. She went to the day spa.
    4. Forsaken got pushed out of Gilneas.
    5. Garrosh took over the assault.
    6. Sylvanas comes back just before a suicidal charge.
    7. Garrosh lets her take over again without mentioning anything about her previous use of Plague.

    No. Garrosh started the attack and Sylvanas finished it. The story shows Garrosh attacking the Greymane Wall. When Sylvanas arrives, she says "My three fastest ships have already been dispatched to the southern coast to divert the attention of the Gilnean capital." These ships are part of the Worgen starting zone and they haven't arrived yet.
    Which is -bizarre- because the timeline turns itself inside out. Feral worgen on the walls wouldn't have firearms or cannons. Blizz sucks at timelines and making their stories coherent. (Could those ships be in the BG?)
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  8. #188
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, Russia
    Posts
    8,425
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    2. That's not really a comparable situation though. The farmers didn't go out and murder people in both armies in an important military operation and nearly summon a demonic invasion, and haven't been torturing people in their secret underground city. This is apple's and oranges.
    To a degree, yes, but still this formula kind of irritates me: "you can disregard your people as you please, but just you dare touch other faction...". I can't find any other explanation why people adore characters like Wrynn and hate Sylvanas and her Forsaken. It's like being hit first gives one a carte blanche for being a righteous avenger and slaughter anyone they deem dangerous with no repercussions to one's reputation, but striking first, even when the threat is obvious, is strictly prohibited and should be punished by everyone in the world, including neutrals.
    3. That's not really fair since that's more a matter of depiction than -character-.
    I suppose the measure of depiction represents how much Blizzard stresses over certain things.
    4. Fair enough. this is more an issue I take with people who try to portray her as a tactical genius, and that was probably because those worgen were feral and hadn't gone through the whole 'calmness' ritual yet.
    Well, she still succeeds despite losses. She's not a genius, but she wins war nevertheless, even without raining plague or throwing waves of cannon fodder like Scourge did.
    5. Thing is, the Forsaken haven't really -succeeded- at much in awhile, everything blows up in their face and it's kind of tiring, especially when it feels contrived or counterproductive and challenges why they're allowed in the faction to begin with.
    About losses - that's war. Not every plan is brilliant, especially when enemy has plans of his own, it's not like going out and killing 50 static aimless mobs. Though in the end, where did they truly lost? Gilneas ended up with Gilneans chased off and Alliance occupying their most elite regiment with clinging to that isolated warzone. Silverpine is purged of threats (save for maybe Ivar who is in a feud with Gilnean worgen), Hillsbrad is fully under Forsaken control, Stormpike Guard is slaughtered, Battle for Andorhal is won, but they get pushed back from Hinterlands. Overall, it looks great. For a single race, it's a tremendous progress.
    I'm fine with Forsaken sneaking into the enemy barracks before a battle and poisoning all the soldiers, what bothers me is them going into the barracks and eating all the kittens and cackling evilly while the enemy wakes up full of piss and vinegar to beat the tar out of them.
    And that's Blizzard's way of depicting things - after all, it's a 12+ game. Yes, I don't like it, too, I'd rather have it darker and more realistic, like in my ever beloved Witcher series, but alas.
    6. Thing is Sylvanas was in Gilneas in the past, so Garrosh couldn't have -started- the thing while she was gone, at least not at the time of the short story, since she would've already been there.
    At this point I kind of doubt that the author himself cared about such nuances.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  9. #189
    I am confused at the question. The title says Jaina good Sylvanas bad why? The post says Jaina bad why? No mention of Sylvanas, I have no Idea what OP is talking about with Sylvanas.
    Last edited by Dark Exerus; 2013-02-14 at 02:11 AM.

  10. #190
    Pandaren Monk Slummish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,780
    Jaina has worked to keep the Alliance together and make it stronger and even reached out to the Horde in order to bring peace to her people. Sylvanas is not loyal to the Horde in the same way. She maintains a tenuous pact with the Horde in order to serve her own needs... which really have nothing at all to do with diplomacy and camaraderie or the future of the Horde.

  11. #191
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,602
    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    To a degree, yes, but still this formula kind of irritates me: "you can disregard your people as you please, but just you dare touch other faction...". I can't find any other explanation why people adore characters like Wrynn and hate Sylvanas and her Forsaken.

    It's like being hit first gives one a carte blanche for being a righteous avenger and slaughter anyone they deem dangerous with no repercussions to one's reputation, but striking first, even when the threat is obvious, is strictly prohibited and should be punished by everyone in the world, including neutrals.

    I suppose the measure of depiction represents how much Blizzard stresses over certain things.

    Well, she still succeeds despite losses. She's not a genius, but she wins war nevertheless, even without raining plague or throwing waves of cannon fodder like Scourge did.

    About losses - that's war. Not every plan is brilliant, especially when enemy has plans of his own, it's not like going out and killing 50 static aimless mobs.

    Though in the end, where did they truly lost? Gilneas ended up with Gilneans chased off and Alliance occupying their most elite regiment with clinging to that isolated warzone. Silverpine is purged of threats (save for maybe Ivar who is in a feud with Gilnean worgen), Hillsbrad is fully under Forsaken control, Stormpike Guard is slaughtered, Battle for Andorhal is won, but they get pushed back from Hinterlands. Overall, it looks great. For a single race, it's a tremendous progress.

    And that's Blizzard's way of depicting things - after all, it's a 12+ game. Yes, I don't like it, too, I'd rather have it darker and more realistic, like in my ever beloved Witcher series, but alas.

    At this point I kind of doubt that the author himself cared about such nuances.
    1. I don't adore wyrnn I just don't think he's a bad person. And he's not 'disregarding' his people he's trying to keep them all alive which won't be the case if Garrosh murders all the Night Elves and then heads over to EK with Sylvanas and val'kyr-rez-kills her way to SW. He's not giving westfall and those people less attention because he's sitting around moping or going to fancy parties he's legitimately got other things going on that are important. This isn't the computer age where you download info instantly and know what's going on all over your nation :\

    2. This is an issue I've noted, but the idea that neturals 'should never get involved in something ever cause they're neutral' is also a flawed perception of what it means to be unaligned.

    3. The problem with Blizz is that they don't really provide any explanation for what a lot of characters are doing in the background when story focus shifts so it makes them look like lazy / callous jerks, rather than giving them a 'task of indeterminable length' to complete right when the focus shifts back to them.

    4. Ehhhhhhh... I'd say she still uses the Blight way too much, and while I wouldn't call her tactics cannon fodder, the whole 'kidnap crowley's daughter and make him retreat' thing didn't really make sense to me. I mean... if he says no (cause he's a worgen it's not implausible from what she knows, they had a guy get himself killed to plant false evidence for the bomb trap) she's screwed, and if he says yes? She actually let Lorna go and guess what? In like a week or so they'll be nice and entrenched behind the wall and go right back to pushing Silverpine, regardless of how well the Forsaken build up on their side it's still not a 'win' it's a time-buying move.

    5. Okay but these are the things she should be GOOD at. She's an elf, she slowed Arthas through these same kinds of tactics and yet she gets whupped by them. This is bloody guerrilla warfare in a forest and she's failing miserably at the thing that should be her specialty.

    6. I can't say what they lost because I'm not sure what the -goal- here was. Retake silverpine? Okay they got that done... up until Godfrey betrayed them. Retake Gilneas? All they did was get all the Worgen to settle in there to fortify. Ivar might not be -working- with the GIlnean worgen but they're not fghting each other. Hillsbrad's under control yes but only because they lucked out and caught on to an assault that would've otherwise flattened them. Hinterlands is one of the healthier areas for them I'll agree.

    7. Tragically. It doesn't need to be 'darker' though it just needs to split the jokes and the serious quests and such up a bit more, and have the storylines make -sense- from a narrative point of view, have the plot fit the thematics of the races and characters involved rather than make zero sense.

    8. Yeah :\ Unfortunately

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 11:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Exerus View Post
    I am confused at the question. The title says Jaina good Sylvanas bad why? The post says Jaina bad why? No mention of Sylvanas, I have no Idea what OP is talking about with Sylvanas.
    Yeah it was like Midnight when I made the thing so I made a really derpy title and didn't realize until like two days later.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  12. #192
    People everywhere are arguing why Sylvanas is evil.

    Almost as if it's unanimous that Jaina is good.

    Jaina is a trillion times more evil than Sylvanas. Hell, she's more evil than even Sargeras.

    Her devious and conniving machinations have played a role in every atrocity in recent Azerothian and Draenorian history.

    And through it all she comes out looking like a saint.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-860 @2.8GHz | Radeon HD 7770 | 8GB DDR3-1333MHz | Corsair CX 430W |

  13. #193
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, Russia
    Posts
    8,425
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    1. I don't adore wyrnn I just don't think he's a bad person. And he's not 'disregarding' his people he's trying to keep them all alive which won't be the case if Garrosh murders all the Night Elves and then heads over to EK with Sylvanas and val'kyr-rez-kills her way to SW. He's not giving westfall and those people less attention because he's sitting around moping or going to fancy parties he's legitimately got other things going on that are important. This isn't the computer age where you download info instantly and know what's going on all over your nation :\
    Makes sense. However, he's still the only one with that problem.
    2. This is an issue I've noted, but the idea that neturals 'should never get involved in something ever cause they're neutral' is also a flawed perception of what it means to be unaligned.
    It's about game mechanics in this case, and it reflects on the situation. Forsaken players have been contributing to Cenarion Circle's and Argent Dawn's cause just like any other, and it wouldn't make much sense for those factions to turn on Forsaken or BE, and all neutrals act kind of accordingly in game. Except for the latest Kirin Tor outburst, which I may not like (because it was a friggin pogrom out of the blue), but it's still good and refreshing for the story.
    3. The problem with Blizz is that they don't really provide any explanation for what a lot of characters are doing in the background when story focus shifts so it makes them look like lazy / callous jerks, rather than giving them a 'task of indeterminable length' to complete right when the focus shifts back to them.
    Perhaps.
    4. Ehhhhhhh... I'd say she still uses the Blight way too much, and while I wouldn't call her tactics cannon fodder, the whole 'kidnap crowley's daughter and make him retreat' thing didn't really make sense to me. I mean... if he says no (cause he's a worgen it's not implausible from what she knows, they had a guy get himself killed to plant false evidence for the bomb trap) she's screwed, and if he says yes? She actually let Lorna go and guess what? In like a week or so they'll be nice and entrenched behind the wall and go right back to pushing Silverpine, regardless of how well the Forsaken build up on their side it's still not a 'win' it's a time-buying move.
    Well, considering that there were only Crowley and Ivar vs. Sylvanas, Cromush, the Gilneas traitor trio, and three Val'kyrs... It wouldn't have been wise for Crowley to go mad.
    5. Okay but these are the things she should be GOOD at. She's an elf, she slowed Arthas through these same kinds of tactics and yet she gets whupped by them. This is bloody guerrilla warfare in a forest and she's failing miserably at the thing that should be her specialty.
    Meh. Look at Night Elves - they are supposed to be the best in it. It's Blizzard's derpness.
    6. I can't say what they lost because I'm not sure what the -goal- here was. Retake silverpine? Okay they got that done... up until Godfrey betrayed them. Retake Gilneas? All they did was get all the Worgen to settle in there to fortify. Ivar might not be -working- with the GIlnean worgen but they're not fghting each other. Hillsbrad's under control yes but only because they lucked out and caught on to an assault that would've otherwise flattened them. Hinterlands is one of the healthier areas for them I'll agree.
    Did Godfrey conquer Silverpine? Nope, he crawled into a hole to be farmed.
    7. Tragically. It doesn't need to be 'darker' though it just needs to split the jokes and the serious quests and such up a bit more, and have the storylines make -sense- from a narrative point of view, have the plot fit the thematics of the races and characters involved rather than make zero sense.
    Perhaps, at least that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  14. #194
    Sylvanas is an immortal undead grimdark emo elf ghost queen. She is deviantart incarnate. So naturally she gets a free pass with a certain facet of the userbase. By comparison Jaina is just 'boring' enough to be disliked for her actions.

    Sounds like a joke but honestly, go read any thread about them and it usually comes down to "she was a powerful mage that deserved to be bombed" vs "she was right to plague southshore, we dont know what weapons of mass destruction the alliance were hiding there!"

  15. #195
    I think they both have their good and bad sides. They are both are relatively just in what they have done and both have gone way overboard at the same time. They are just in different stages of pissed off. Jaina was recently scorned(if you dont count Arthas) and Sylvanas is kinda like batman in that it has been awhile since she has been scorned and now shes blind to who her target is, or maybe she just has the vampire lust.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Which is -bizarre- because the timeline turns itself inside out. Feral worgen on the walls wouldn't have firearms or cannons. Blizz sucks at timelines and making their stories coherent. (Could those ships be in the BG?)
    That was actually part of the vision. It didn't happen yet.

    In present time: The Forsaken scouts are sent to the Greymayne Wall to test the defenses. Garrosh is sitting in the back with his main army. There are gaps in the Wall from the Cataclysm. Garrosh is waiting for the main Forsaken army to arrive so he can send them through the Wall to open a path for his own troops. Lydon knows they will be bottle-necked and decimated. He suggests the use of Plague, to which Garrosh bitch-slaps him. Lydon wonders why Sylvanas isn't there to stand up to Garrosh.

    In the unaltered future shown in the vision: Once the main Forsaken army arrives, Garrosh sends them on a suicidal charge through the gaps in the wall. They are mowed down. The second wave tries to scale the walls where the Worgen defenders were. All Forsaken waves are defeated. Now that the Gilnean defenses are weakened, Garrosh sends in his main army over the carpet of Forsaken corpses.

    Back to present: The Forsaken army finally arrives, having been delayed by the weather. Garrosh inspects them and emboldens them with a speech about how the Gilneans abandoned them in their time of need. Lydon tries to think of what Sylvanas would say to prevent their massacre. Just as Garrosh orders the charge, Sylvanas shows up and stops it.


    EDIT: Full disclosure: I didn't actually read these books or stories in completion. I look up the summary on the wiki then skip to the relevant sections with word searches and skim the text. I just now read this all the way through.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-02-16 at 08:50 AM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  17. #197
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    3,602
    But then who's at the wall firing the musket shot that shattered the scout's jaw? In the starting zone the gilneans didn't hold the wall.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    But then who's at the wall firing the musket shot that shattered the scout's jaw? In the starting zone the gilneans didn't hold the wall.
    What part of the starting zone?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  19. #199
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Hanseatic City of Lübeck
    Posts
    8,902
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    What part of the starting zone?
    It is in the short story, you should really read it completely.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/game/lor...s-windrunner/1

    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    But then who's at the wall firing the musket shot that shattered the scout's jaw? In the starting zone the gilneans didn't hold the wall.
    Gilneas was splintered, we know greymane fled with what was left of the humans in the capital city to the south , but there were other pockets of resistance throughout Gilneas, the worgen ran rampart, but the borders seem to have been still defended.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2013-02-16 at 03:38 PM.
    He who sees his own doom can better avoid its path. He who sees the doom of others can deliver it.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It is in the short story, you should really read it completely.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/game/lor...s-windrunner/1
    What? My question was about the starting zone... Where Skytotem says the Gilneans didn't hold the wall.

    I know the scout got shot in the jaw in the short story.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •