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  1. #161
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    She is definitely using the Forsaken as a shield to protect herself, but I don't believe that is her sole motivation. The story shows that she is beginning to have empathy towards other undead. She definitely had a vested self-interest in accepting the Val'kyr's offer, but she didn't make the decision purely for selfish purposes. She saw their plight and wanted to liberate them.

    "This was her only way out. But she didn't want to give her assent out of fear. She waited until she felt something more. A fellowship. A sisterhood. Sisters. Separate, they were all trapped. But together, they were free… and with them, she could postpone her fate."
    It points out she has empathy for the Val'kyr. You can make out what you will about her growing empathy or not, the fact is that we simply don't know if it extends at all to the Forsaken and personally I doubt it given what she calls the Forsaken. She saw their plight and decided that they had something she wanted also, it wasn't that she flat out wanted to help them.
    So far her only motivation has been survival, until we see otherwise it's just wishful thinking.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    It points out she has empathy for the Val'kyr. You can make out what you will about her growing empathy or not, the fact is that we simply don't know if it extends at all to the Forsaken and personally I doubt it given what she calls the Forsaken. She saw their plight and decided that they had something she wanted also, it wasn't that she flat out wanted to help them.
    So far her only motivation has been survival, until we see otherwise it's just wishful thinking.
    I would have been fine with her just being a 1-dimensional bad girl. But the writers decided they wanted to expand her story. I just want it to go somewhere meaningful.

    She is having an existential crisis. Without the LK, she has no purpose. She committed suicide. In addition to freeing her from eternal torment, the Val'kyr offered her kinship. I'm not saying that her personality instantly flipped to the other extreme (like Jaina ). Sylvanas isn't all sunshine and rainbows, but feeling any kind of empathy is a dramatic development for her character when she has only felt a remorseless vengeance since her break from the LK's control.

    It is wishful thinking that she would continue down this path of empathy and extend it towards the Forsaken and the Scourge still under Bolvar's control. It would lead to her redemption and validate the Tauren's reason for endorsing their entrance into the Horde. However, she could very easily be corrupted by her new-found power over life and death and revert to her old psychopathic self.

    The key thing is that for the first time, in a long time, "her spirit [is] once again feeling whole."
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  3. #163
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    1. How does the ending contradict it? She sees them as a bulwark. A tool, if it's -ever- more convenient for her she'll sacrifice them without a thought.
    "I was once like you, Garrosh," she answered, her voice quiet and steady, loud enough only for the warchief to hear. "Those who served me were tools. Arrows in my quiver."
    I believe she is stating quite the contrary to your claim.
    The silverpine questline is her telling them what they want to hear just like earlier in the short story :\
    You know, I can easily twist some things to prove that every WoW leader is merely saying what his/her people want to hear. But at least Sylvanas has a real, rock-solid reason to care about them, unlike anyone else. Her life depends o them, which can't be said about Wrynn or Thrall or whomever. She's tied to her people.
    2. Not exactly, she wants to maintain her tools, and if they -knew- that she didn't care about them any more than Arthas cared about the scourge then I think they'd react poorly
    What's the difference? Actions speak louder than words. The blessed and the righteous have big mouths, but if you look at it from a Forsaken's POV, she's the sole and greatest benefactor in their short history, she has founded, protected, and led the Forsaken nation from the moment they regained their self-awareness. Everything Forsaken have achieved, they achieved with her initiative and participation. They literally owe everything to her.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    the void is only for undead. normal people dont go to the void. its a side effect of the taint the infects a soul when its ripped from death
    Has it ever been explicitly stated or proved anywhere? I kind of doubt it. Some may have faith in heaven or whatever there is in WoW, but she's got first-hand experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  4. #164
    The Lightbringer Zuben's Avatar
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    How Jaina and the Silver Covenant chose to handle the Sunreavers was one of the worst options they could consider. That's why we judge her. As we do Sylvanas. Both of them. There is no 'x is less bad than y, therefore x is understandable and shall be forgiven, while y shall be burned in a righteous fire'.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  5. #165
    I am Murloc! Scummer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    I would have been fine with her just being a 1-dimensional bad girl. But the writers decided they wanted to expand her story. I just want it to go somewhere meaningful.
    Well just I think her problem is that her story expanded (or rather shrunk) too rapidly and in a way that perhaps took some aback as it was rather radical.
    The other problem is that she's been expanded in such a way that her current agenda completely alienates her from the Horde and arguably the player making further in-game development complicated.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-12 at 11:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    You know, I can easily twist some things to prove that every WoW leader is merely saying what his/her people want to hear. But at least Sylvanas has a real, rock-solid reason to care about them, unlike anyone else.
    The thing is that her being deceitful and selfish fits with her character hence why it can be applied.
    Last edited by Scummer; 2013-02-12 at 11:02 AM.

  6. #166
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    How Jaina and the Silver Covenant chose to handle the Sunreavers was one of the worst options they could consider. That's why we judge her. As we do Sylvanas. Both of them. There is no 'x is less bad than y, therefore x is understandable and shall be forgiven, while y shall be burned in a righteous fire'.
    Actually what Sylvanas does is bad, while what Jaina did was understandable. Still, two completely different situations. Anyone who even compares Jaina to Sylvanas doesn't really understand what those two characters did. Sylvanas defiles Lordaeron, kills people, raises them as undead and attacks other lands without provocation (Gilneas). Sylvanas is on the best way to replace the Lich King. Say about Jaina what you will but don't even compare her to Sylvanas. As questionable as the attempted assault on Orgrimmar and the Purge of Dalaran were, at least she has understandable motives, while Sylvanas does what she does for power, without any respect for life. So much that her own allies despise her.

  7. #167
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    However, the ending of her short story and Silverpine questline kind of contradict that.
    Well, people believe she doesn't care about her people because that is what she said one minute after she attempted suicide.
    We all know how emotionally stable people are after they "tried" to kill themselves.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Actually what Sylvanas does is bad, while what Jaina did was understandable. Still, two completely different situations. Anyone who even compares Jaina to Sylvanas doesn't really understand what those two characters did. Sylvanas defiles Lordaeron, kills people, raises them as undead and attacks other lands without provocation (Gilneas). Sylvanas is on the best way to replace the Lich King. Say about Jaina what you will but don't even compare her to Sylvanas. As questionable as the attempted assault on Orgrimmar and the Purge of Dalaran were, at least she has understandable motives, while Sylvanas does what she does for power, without any respect for life. So much that her own allies despise her.
    It is quite easy to compare them because their situations are very similar. Jaina assaulted Orgrimmar due to hateful vengeance, but was pulled back from the edge. Jaina is again taking the vengeful path against Garrosh and the Horde. Sylvanas similarly started off being full of vengeance against Arthas, but it became her permanent state and degenerated into psychopathy.

    Jaina hasn't degenerated (and maybe won't) to the level of Sylvanas because 1) Jaina's trauma isn't as great or pervasive, 2) Jaina's vengeance won't take several years to conclude, 3) Jaina has people around here who are a moderating influence (Kalec, Anduin, etc.).
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-02-12 at 09:36 PM. Reason: Clarification.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  9. #169
    Honestly I hope Jaina pulls an Arthas and just destroys the Horde.

  10. #170
    Actually, Sylvanas didn't attack Gilneas. She was in ICC killing herself when Garrosh and Lydon started it. Sylvanas just finished it with plague to save the lives of her people.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  11. #171
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    I believe she is stating quite the contrary to your claim.

    You know, I can easily twist some things to prove that every WoW leader is merely saying what his/her people want to hear. But at least Sylvanas has a real, rock-solid reason to care about them, unlike anyone else. Her life depends o them, which can't be said about Wrynn or Thrall or whomever. She's tied to her people.

    What's the difference? Actions speak louder than words. The blessed and the righteous have big mouths, but if you look at it from a Forsaken's POV, she's the sole and greatest benefactor in their short history, she has founded, protected, and led the Forsaken nation from the moment they regained their self-awareness. Everything Forsaken have achieved, they achieved with her initiative and participation. They literally owe everything to her.

    Has it ever been explicitly stated or proved anywhere? I kind of doubt it. Some may have faith in heaven or whatever there is in WoW, but she's got first-hand experience.
    1. Stating it in earshot of her tools.

    2. Not -really-. You could swap her people out with any group of mercenaries from some other race and it wouldn't be too different. Also, that 'twisting' you could do is more a weakness of WoW's writing than a critique of my thought process :B

    3. The difference is she goes on and on about their self determination and rights to the land and such but doesn't believe a word of it. Or rather, she doesnt' care one way or the other.

    4. It hasn't been explicitly stated, it's actually part of a theory I have, that everybody can be yanked by an old god regardless of whether they're good or bad and being tied to some other deity like Elune, the Troll Loa, or the Light is what lets people not go to 'wowhell'.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  12. #172
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scummer View Post
    The thing is that her being deceitful and selfish fits with her character hence why it can be applied.
    I wonder why it only applies to her and not to, say, Wrynn, whose people eat mud in Westfall and are sent to "settle" in a warzone in Western Plaguelands, while he gets a statue in Stormwind castle courtyard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Well, people believe she doesn't care about her people because that is what she said one minute after she attempted suicide.
    We all know how emotionally stable people are after they "tried" to kill themselves.
    Isn't it overanalyzing? Occam's razor here hints me that it's just because she's not a paladin or hippie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Actually, Sylvanas didn't attack Gilneas. She was in ICC killing herself when Garrosh and Lydon started it. Sylvanas just finished it with plague to save the lives of her people.
    Woah, don't you pull apothecary Lydon into this like he's the initiator or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  13. #173
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    I wonder why it only applies to her and not to, say, Wrynn, whose people eat mud in Westfall

    nd are sent to "settle" in a warzone in Western Plaguelands, while he gets a statue in Stormwind castle courtyard.

    Isn't it overanalyzing? Occam's razor here hints me that it's just because she's not a paladin or hippie.

    Woah, don't you pull apothecary Lydon into this like he's the initiator or something.
    1. Their relief stuff gets nabbed by the defias doesn't it? And then redistributed by Vanessa? Also, there are goddamn boars walking around, the people in westfall are -insane-.

    2. No one 'sent' them to settle, they went of their own volition.

    3. No it's pretty much for that reason, at least for me.

    4. I think he's also confusing the timeline stuff here, Sylvanas's attempted suicide would've been way before Cata even started.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    4. I think he's also confusing the timeline stuff here, Sylvanas's attempted suicide would've been way before Cata even started.
    It's in the story. She's in ICC killing herself, the Val'kyr show her a vision of what would happen after her death. The Forsaken lose most of their forces in the assault on Gilneas. With reduced numbers, Lydon can't hold the Bulwark against an Alliance invasion that destroys the Forsaken. Once she accepts the Val'kyr's offer, she shows up at Gilneas with them and her new outlook on life.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  15. #175
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    It's in the story. She's in ICC killing herself, the Val'kyr show her a vision of what would happen after her death. The Forsaken lose most of their forces in the assault on Gilneas. With reduced numbers, Lydon can't hold the Bulwark against an Alliance invasion that destroys the Forsaken. Once she accepts the Val'kyr's offer, she shows up at Gilneas with them and her new outlook on life.
    I know. There's just nothing to imply that she went from Icecrown to Gilneas, and that Icecrown didn't happen a while prior. For all we know she could've been in tirisfal making preparations or setting the Val'kyr to deathknell prior while the icecrowne thing happened months ago.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    I know. There's just nothing to imply that she went from Icecrown to Gilneas, and that Icecrown didn't happen a while prior. For all we know she could've been in tirisfal making preparations or setting the Val'kyr to deathknell prior while the icecrowne thing happened months ago.
    "Then he blinked in astonishment: Lady Sylvanas was flanked on either side by the abominable Val'kyr, their shimmering bodies held aloft on translucent wings." Lydon is surprised by the presence of Val'kyr at her side. If she made her pact with them months ago, this would have been old news.

    Either way, she was absent when Garrosh commanded Lydon and the Forsaken army to attack Gilneas.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  17. #177
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    1. Their relief stuff gets nabbed by the defias doesn't it? And then redistributed by Vanessa? Also, there are goddamn boars walking around, the people in westfall are -insane-.
    IIRC it doesn't. Defias didn't steal food from people's mouths, didn't drive people to poverty, and didn't firbid them to settle in Sentinel Hill. But this doesn't get remembered because Wrynn killed a dragon and he's awesome and a king.
    2. No one 'sent' them to settle, they went of their own volition.
    They were promised land, weren't they?
    3. No it's pretty much for that reason, at least for me.
    Just discard her reasoning because "she's unstable after suicide attempt"? She's undead. Cite me a book on undead psychology. People would make up anything to make a dark character seem evil and untrustworthy and manipulating and shit while attributing the mistakes and wrongs of "good" characters to everything and everyone else. Halo effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  18. #178
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    IIRC it doesn't. Defias didn't steal food from people's mouths, didn't drive people to poverty, and didn't firbid them to settle in Sentinel Hill. But this doesn't get remembered because Wrynn killed a dragon and he's awesome and a king.

    They were promised land, weren't they?

    Just discard her reasoning because "she's unstable after suicide attempt"? She's undead. Cite me a book on undead psychology. People would make up anything to make a dark character seem evil and untrustworthy and manipulating and shit while attributing the mistakes and wrongs of "good" characters to everything and everyone else. Halo effect.

    1. Wyrnn isn't being callous about it :\ Not even a sign he knows really. Also, She blamed the player for murdering the hobo her goons murdered and spread a ton of propaganda saying the player shouted about how they did it for stormwind, she's not exactly spotless (Granted I'd personally take her over Wyrnn but the point stands, he's not cackling about how bad off they are).

    2. No... all he says is that he heard the plagulands were healed, not who told him that. Sounds like one of those "Way out west" rumors that got people killed during America's frontier days.

    3. I think one of us misread something there. I'm saying that the reason I don't like her is because she said she didn't care about her people and sees them as a means to an end. I don't particularly care about the evil things she does -in and of themselves- I care that it makes sense the rest of the Horde tolerate her and that her people follow her and that she doesn't get her karmic debt paid.
    You are now future Jack Noir.

    Presently, you are trapped in a single moment, which increasingly feels like an eternity. Your boredom is surpassed only by your all consuming rage and contempt for existence itself.

  19. #179
    Elemental Lord Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    1. Wyrnn isn't being callous about it :\ Not even a sign he knows really.
    That's what maddens me. Everyone just pretends that never happened, but when you mention Forsaken, you always find a dozen enthuziasts bringing up the most obscure quotes and bits of quests to prove that they are worse than Scourge and Legion combined.
    Also, She blamed the player for murdering the hobo her goons murdered and spread a ton of propaganda saying the player shouted about how they did it for stormwind, she's not exactly spotless (Granted I'd personally take her over Wyrnn but the point stands, he's not cackling about how bad off they are).
    You are talking about Vanessa? I don't quite remember her framing anyone or preaching false statements. Actually, she was quite right. She said she killed her adoptive parents herself.
    2. No... all he says is that he heard the plagulands were healed, not who told him that. Sounds like one of those "Way out west" rumors that got people killed during America's frontier days.
    Anyway, it was Wrynn's responsibility to not let his people jump into the grinder. Doesn't this and Westfall show how little he actually cares about his people (while being awesome and shiny and wolfheart)?
    3. I think one of us misread something there. I'm saying that the reason I don't like her is because she said she didn't care about her people and sees them as a means to an end. I don't particularly care about the evil things she does -in and of themselves- I care that it makes sense the rest of the Horde tolerate her and that her people follow her and that she doesn't get her karmic debt paid.
    It's not about words, it's about actions. Her last words in the short story may be interpreted wrongly (apparently), but as one of the Forsaken, I see she cares greatly. As I said, she was in every undertaking of the Forsaken, as initiator or participant, very often intervening personally (actually more often than any other leader in the entire WoW). You make it seem like she would send her people to death at a whim, but in the end of the short story she does exactly absolutely totally the opposite, she arrives at the battlefield to not let her people die meaningless deaths.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Metzenphrenia. As defined in the DSM: "To be so badly written, that it drives the character into insanity." It's symptoms are similar to schizophrenia but even crazier.
    "There are no answers, only choices" - Solaris.

  20. #180
    Wasn't Theramore Nation the survivors of Lordaeron mainly that fleed to Kalimdor almost the same time as Thrall and his orcs did? Why do you think the Orcs have a superior right to be there then? Where should've Theramore Nation gone after the defeat of Archimonde then when their native home - Lordaeron - is owned by Sylvanas and their forsaken?

    I never saw Theramore or Jaina as the aggressor on Kalimdor not even during Cataclysm invasion of the Barrens. The other fortresses felt rather independent as Alliance no one sends you to them prior to Cataclysm and she didn't order any attacks on the Horde. As of Cataclysm the invasion was a reasonable response to Garroshs war against her Allies the Nightelves in Ashenvale. As she wanted to protect them from extinction. She was actively wanting peace between the horde and the alliance but she simply can't talk to Garrosh that's why she had to do something. And even during the military actions she was meeting with Thrall several times wanting him to stop Garrosh as warchief.

    While Garrosh is a relative young character within the Horde all other Orcs prior to him should have known Thralls and Jainas attitudes towards a faction-based war. They should've seen the co-work between Theramore Nation and Orgrimmar during Hyjal and subsequent events. They still follow Garroshs order blindly without questioning it and Jaina had to do an attempt to stop him. Then he nuked her city - in which not only soldiers lived but also civilians. She wanted on par revenge to Orgrimmar. Which she didn't achieve. She went back to some sort of neutrality as the leader of the Kirin Tor. Though she was helping the Alliance recover and hide the Divine Bell the Alliance never planned to actually use it. She was helping the Alliance in order to not give the Horde another WMD that can kill many civilians again. She had been betrayed again by the 2nd time of a "neutral" faction inside her new Nation. While you can't blame Sunreaver for the action of the individuals you can blame him for no further investigation of who is loyal to Garrosh inside his ranks and kick those out after the first betrayal and you can blame him for not taking any steps after the 2nd betrayal. Her reaction on the betrayals are kind of natural.


    While Sylvanas actions following after the fall of the lich king were mainly evil and mad. She killed civilians and raised them into undeath leaving it up to them to either die or serve. But actually this isn't really an option as their souls were raped due to necromancy they would've gotten into the same void Sylvanas fears. She willingly sends their soldiers into that void too by starting new wars. She started to expand the war against Gilneas, against the leftovers of the Kirin Tor and the few leftovers near Western Plaguelands and of course against the Kingdom of Arathor. She has the knowledge that every forsaken that dies will enter the void, which most of the forsaken don't. If she wasn't evil she would have pushed towards peace or at least neutrality on these factions despite the pressure she was getting from Garrosh. Garrosh is half the world away and she still has her WMD. I think that it would be easy to defend Lordaeron from the orcs above the sea after liberating undercity from the Orcs left for watchovers having both a navy and also the plague.
    I doubt Gilneas would've started a war against the forsaken, nor the Kirin Tor. While that DK is leader of the military operations of the Alliance in Lordaeron I think she could've achieved peace with him too. Having only 1 possible war to fight against a weakened Garrosh who would've developed his 2 border war to a 3 border war (Theramore, Darnassus and Forsaken).

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