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  1. #1021
    Wow. You really have no idea what feminism is.

    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    Really annoys me when women have these ridiculous preconceptions about men.
    I can't stand feminism, it's turned our world in to women can say and do what ever the fuck they want about men, and we just have to eat it.
    In a world of deceit, open your eyes.

  2. #1022
    Immortal Reg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    Nobody ever talked about anything being "justifiable" at least I didn't. So don't go branding me for things I didn't do. Psychiatry isn't a social science pal. Nobody will ever have the complete explanation about anything, not even in physics, but that's not a reason not to try because if you don't try you can't progress. I'm sorry but if truly think what I'm saying is ridiculous then you're just a fool and deluded fool at that.
    How many times did you agree with posts made by Sorrior in which he said, and I am paraphrasing, "One you're having sex, you can't just stop if she says no." That's attempting to justify their reasoning. And psychiatry is indeed a social science, except they're allowed to throw meds at a problem. Neurology would be the only science with any bearing in fact or testable theory. And as far as neurology goes, there are no receptors in the brain that operate on a different level between rapists and non-rapists brains. The only difference is a rapist makes a conscious decision to go through with it.
    Last edited by Reg; 2013-02-12 at 12:44 AM.

  3. #1023
    I am Murloc! Tiili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin View Post

    Someone who already has a skewed view to what consented sex is isn't going to improve his view when wielding a full blown boner in the same room as the tool to get rid of said boner.
    Sorry, what?! We're no tools someone can just use for their own pleasure.
    Last edited by Tiili; 2013-02-12 at 12:45 AM.
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  4. #1024
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    - have at least one friend when going out to drink
    - dont walk alone at night if you can help it
    - be home before dark
    - be very aware of your surroundings
    - have some kind of alarm or defense
    - dont unlock your car before you get to it
    - try not to be alone in a room for very long with a stranger or acquaintance
    Had no idea you were that defensive (you as in all). From those "safty rules", it sounds like you are scared all the time, especially the part were you cant be in the same room with a stranger for a long period of time.
    The car unlock and be aware of your surroundings, sounds like you go around thinking "someone will attack me now".
    "Dont go out after dark", good that you dont live where the sun is gone for 3months then (like here)!
    “The worst thing I can be is the same as everybody else. I hate that.”

  5. #1025
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    If I'm trying to say that there can be "motivations" for rape other than "domination" and "misogyny" then I'm certainly not saying rape is ok or that it's justified because it might be A: hormones or B: mommy issues.
    I've disputed that hormones are a factor, at all. Guys who don't rape have the same hormones; that's not a variable that ties into rape.

    Mommy issues result in the need to dominate and/or the misogyny that are the central root; you're just explaining WHY they developed those attitudes.

    Feel free to provide other issues. They basically boil down to aggressive domination and a belief that women aren't your equal. Vanyali linked some sources up above, there. Trying to turn it into cases where the woman turned him on and then shut him down plays out like an attempt to shift partial blame to the woman, by bringing up her refusal to submit as a "motivation". That's the issue, and why I've been attacking it.

  6. #1026
    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    That's great and I respect that but to me no science is finite, that's the very nature of science. If you were tying to prove I was wrong you did a piss poor job of it because with people like Regennis and Endus those studies wouldn't even exist, hell they're saying to even thinking about the subject is wrong and somehow condones rape. It's simply ridiculous.
    YOU called on psychology to agree with you, when it doesn't - rape is about power, domination, and control rather than sex. Anyone saying that someone could rape because they "can't" stop.. that's what people said in the 70s, actually. Rapists were declared to have a mental disorder because they couldn't "control their urges". Further research shows that was wrong.

    Saying that you don't believe in the science that's being presented now and agreeing with information that was DISPROVEN because science isn't "finite" (i'm guessing infinite is the word you want ) seems a little backward.

  7. #1027
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    If you were tying to prove I was wrong and back up Regennis & Co though, then you did a piss poor job of it because with people like Regennis and Endus those studies wouldn't even exist, hell they're saying that to even think about the subject is wrong and somehow condones rape. It's what they're saying that's simply ridiculous.
    That's not what I've been saying, at all.

  8. #1028
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    and yet 9 out of 10 rape victims are female, and every female in the US has a 1 in 6 chance of being raped in her life.
    Semi-correct on the first one, survey's out on the second.

    The first one: After age 18, it's about 9:1, yes. Up to age 18, it's closer to 4:1. This presumably has to do with the perception of children and women as weak, thus making them better targets for rapists; once a male has reached maturity, the perception is that he is better able to defend himself. (Though of course one would then ask why grown men are more likely to be targets of all other types of violent crime.)

    Anyway, the best I can do with this data is to extrapolate, based on an approximately 3:1 ratio of 18+ to under 18, that over a full lifetime, it's more like 8:1 than 9:1

    For the second one, the data around how likely a woman is to be raped during her lifetime are essentially impossible to untangle for anyone interested in an honest look at the numbers. Depending on where you look, anywhere from 10% (from some government data) to 85% of rapes (from rape victim advocacy groups) are unreported. That is such a huge disparity that there is no good way to determine what's real and what's not. Anyway, the 1 in 6 extrapolates from a lot of shaky data.

    Regardless, the point is the same: yes, a lot of women are raped. I get that that's your point, I just take issue with bad data in all forms.

    My question to you, of course, is why you're so interested in pointing out that women are more likely to be victimized sexually, but you don't care that men are more likely to be beaten, stabbed, shot, murdered, etc. The topic is fear among women, and my point, as should be clear, is that men have more to fear than women do.

  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    The problem here is with that kind of reasoning you can't have any kind of constructive discussion. It reminds me of people centuries ago that wouldn't acknowledge the Earth might be round because they though even thinking such things was against god's divine will. That's just stupid. If I'm trying to say that there can be "motivations" for rape other than "domination" and "misogyny" then I'm certainly not saying rape is ok or that it's justified because it might be A: hormones or B: mommy issues. I'm just advancing possible theories that might advance our understanding as a whole and the fact people can refuse that in bulk and act like you're some kind of witch because you even though of might possibly go through the mind of rapist is akin to people refusing to consider the Earth was round just cause they thought there was no point in thinking about it and to think about it all was somehow wrong and meant you were evil.
    This is an absurd comparison. No one is denying that rapists have mental issues, so everyone believes the world is round. The misunderstanding comes from people knowing that there are a lot of varied reasons that lead to rape, but other than justify women's fear in having so many reasons, the point seems lost.

    No one is denying there is something wrong with rapists. People do understand that people who rape have mental issues. The problem, is you are trying to understand why people rape in a thread discussing women having a fear of rape. Unless you believe that women, in some part, are at fault for the mental state the men is in. There is no reason to delve into the multitude of reasons why people rape, when that will not help the fear. In context, it feels like either blame of the woman or justification...

    Are you really shocked that people would not want to look from a rapists perspective? Do you understand what rape is, without trying to see it from a rapists perspective?
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  10. #1030
    Herald of the Titans Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
    How many times did you agree with posts made by Sorrior in which he said, and I am paraphrasing, "One you're having sex, you can't just stop if she says no." That's attempting to justify their reasoning. And psychiatry is indeed a social science, except they're allowed to throw meds at a problem. Neurology would be the only science with any bearing in fact or testable theory. And as far as neurology goes, there are no receptors in the brain that operate on a different level between rapists and non-rapists brains. The only difference is a rapist makes a conscious decision to go through with it.
    Listen, you're just getting caught in quicksand with your argument and you know it. If you want to be right, then you'll be right. So go ahead and be right, I don't care. We're done here.

  11. #1031
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    Sorry, what?!
    Let me guess... Now you're going to start a shitfeast because I objectified the rape victim(for the sake of simplicity) and therefor in your mind I'm a sexist moron with no regards towards women?
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  12. #1032
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspect of Death View Post
    Had no idea you were that defensive (you as in all). From those "safty rules", it sounds like you are scared all the time, especially the part were you cant be in the same room with a stranger for a long period of time.
    The car unlock and be aware of your surroundings, sounds like you go around thinking "someone will attack me now".
    "Dont go out after dark", good that you dont live where the sun is gone for 3months then (like here)!
    The sad thing is that, and speaking from first hand experience here, young women in the US are taught that for their safety. That gets hammered into your head over and over from puberty onwards.
    That fabric softener teddy bear...oooh I'm 'a hunt that little bitch down.

  13. #1033
    Herald of the Titans Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    YOU called on psychology to agree with you, when it doesn't - rape is about power, domination, and control rather than sex. Anyone saying that someone could rape because they "can't" stop.. that's what people said in the 70s, actually. Rapists were declared to have a mental disorder because they couldn't "control their urges". Further research shows that was wrong.

    Saying that you don't believe in the science that's being presented now and agreeing with information that was DISPROVEN because science isn't "finite" (i'm guessing infinite is the word you want ) seems a little backward.
    I didn't call on psychology to agree with me in that post. You didn't read anything I said and you're just trying to take their side because you don't like me personally, that's all there is to it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    Are you really shocked that people would not want to look from a rapists perspective? Do you understand what rape is, without trying to see it from a rapists perspective?
    I'm not interested in condoning anything. I'm only interested in exploring possibly different explanation for something, I'm no more a partisan of than murder. Just because you like to think about something and might question it doesn't mean you think highly of it, or whatever other obtuse and righteous nonsense.
    Last edited by Arganis; 2013-02-12 at 12:52 AM.

  14. #1034
    Immortal Reg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    Listen, you're just getting caught in quicksand with your argument and you know it. If you want to be right, then you'll be right. So go ahead and be right, I don't care. We're done here.
    Quicksand? Really? Because there is ZERO scientific proof that rapists do what they do other than the fact they wanted to, I am in quicksand?

  15. #1035
    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    Listen, you're just getting caught in quicksand with your argument and you know it. If you want to be right, then you'll be right. So go ahead and be right, I don't care. We're done here.
    You just compared going through the mind of a rapist to looking at a horizon!!!!
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  16. #1036
    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    I didn't call on psychology to agree with me in that post. You didn't read anything I said and you're just trying to take their side because you don't like me personally, that's all there is to it.
    I've never talked to you before, actually. Accusing me of disliking you personally because of that is amusing, but fairly off base. I'm "taking their side" because you wrote (and the response written to):

    "You analogy falls completely flat simply because following your train of thought, science can prove there is reason behind rape. It can't and there isn't. Rape is a moral choice. Get over it. There is no constructive discussion.

    That's where you're wrong and you show your ignorance. Ever hear of psychology, psychiatry? Those are sciences and they've proved many things through deduction and analysis. But nothing I say will make you change your mind because you're just like Endus."


    Bolded the important bits.

    The part that science proved was that sex is almost a non-factor in rape.

  17. #1037
    Legendary! Xanjori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin View Post
    Let me guess... Now you're going to start a shitfeast because I objectified the rape victim(for the sake of simplicity) and therefor in your mind I'm a sexist moron with no regards towards women?
    Welp, thats one way to stereotype. Accuse the other side of doing first!


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  18. #1038
    It's called being street smart. What if you do walk by a mugger or rapist? If you can easily avoid it, why not do it? Have fun getting mugged one day.

  19. #1039
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solo66 View Post
    Semi-correct on the first one, survey's out on the second.

    The first one: After age 18, it's about 9:1, yes. Up to age 18, it's closer to 4:1. This presumably has to do with the perception of children and women as weak, thus making them better targets for rapists; once a male has reached maturity, the perception is that he is better able to defend himself. (Though of course one would then ask why grown men are more likely to be targets of all other types of violent crime.)

    Anyway, the best I can do with this data is to extrapolate, based on an approximately 3:1 ratio of 18+ to under 18, that over a full lifetime, it's more like 8:1 than 9:1

    For the second one, the data around how likely a woman is to be raped during her lifetime are essentially impossible to untangle for anyone interested in an honest look at the numbers. Depending on where you look, anywhere from 10% (from some government data) to 85% of rapes (from rape victim advocacy groups) are unreported. That is such a huge disparity that there is no good way to determine what's real and what's not. Anyway, the 1 in 6 extrapolates from a lot of shaky data.

    Regardless, the point is the same: yes, a lot of women are raped. I get that that's your point, I just take issue with bad data in all forms.

    My question to you, of course, is why you're so interested in pointing out that women are more likely to be victimized sexually, but you don't care that men are more likely to be beaten, stabbed, shot, murdered, etc. The topic is fear among women, and my point, as should be clear, is that men have more to fear than women do.
    the reason men have a higher violent crime victimization is because they are more likely to be engaging in risky and/or violent activities.

  20. #1040
    Quote Originally Posted by Decklan View Post
    Info that comes from .gov sites? The very essence that the graph is trying to convey is that false accusations are an incredibly small percentage. You seem to be thinking it's trying to imply something entirely different than it is.

    Go look up their sources. Seems pretty legit to me. Lots of .gov statistic sites as well as scientific studies conducted on rapes, reported rapes, convicted rapists and false accusations.

    Again Laize, you have this terrible habit of calling something false or bad data if you don't like it and on no other merit to yourself than that.
    You go through great mental acrobatics to convince yourself of this infographic's validity.

    Allow me to list further problems with that graphic. Serious problems... not the least of which is its assumption that all of the accused are guilty.

    Yeah... it's not just about false accusations, but the idea that every accusation is automatically indicative of a crime.

    Not to mention the fact that actual scholars in the area say:

    ". . . the statistics on false rape accusation widely vary and 'as a scientific matter, the frequency of false rape complaints to police or other legal authorities remains unknown.'" A. Gruber, Rape, Feminism, and the War on Crime, 84 Wash. L. Rev. 581, 595-600 (November 2009)
    As such, any data stated as fact on the subject (Especially data that purposely aims for the low end of the estimated range) is intellectually dishonest.

    In addition, even if you assume that the 2% false accusations rate is accurate, that doesn't make the other 98% actual rapes. It just makes them alleged rapes... not even alleged rapes... they were never reported and thus, could never even have been determined to be a legitimate or false claim in the first place.

    Hypothetically speaking, half of those unreported claims could, in fact, be false allegations and we would have absolutely no way of knowing one way or the other... What with them being unreported and uninvestigated and all...

    If you want to get real statistics to make an infographic, get the report rate up. And try not to do it by doing stupid things like forcing the burden of proof on the accused or reducing the requirements for a rape conviction to this disgraceful "preponderance of evidence" horse shit that some universities have been implementing.

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