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  1. #1021
    I am Murloc! Tiili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    To people who were onboard with this whole "better safe than sorry" mentality about avoiding men (Tiili specifically). Do you feel the same towards other women?
    Why would I feel like that towards other women? I'm 156 cm and weigh 46 kg, most men are like 25-40 cm taller than me and like double my weight unless they're the skinny types. Other women are usually not anywhere close to that much bigger than me as men are.

    It's not like I avoid men all the time, I avoid men when I'm alone out when it's dark.
    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    Are you just nervous around other people in general or does it have to specifically be a man. What about lesbians?
    I'm always nervous around people I don't know. I don't avoid other women on the other hand, they're not that likely to be able to just overpower me completely due to size difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    What about feminine guys?
    Feminine guys as in? They're still likely to be bigger than me and probably stronger.
    Last edited by Tiili; 2013-02-12 at 12:41 AM.
    Close your eyes and smile.
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  2. #1022
    Herald of the Titans Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
    Psychology and Psychiatry are social sciences which are completely different. The most brilliant psychologists still don't have reasons for the way the mind works, so trying to arbitrarily say there are reasons in a rapists mind that to him are justifiable is ridiculous.
    Nobody ever talked about anything being "justifiable" at least I didn't. So don't go branding me for things I didn't do. Psychiatry isn't a social science pal. Nobody will ever have the complete explanation about anything, not even in physics, but that's not a reason not to try because if you don't try you can't progress. I'm sorry but if truly think what I'm saying is ridiculous then you're just a fool and deluded fool at that.

  3. #1023
    So... there's basically two sides to the argument at this point, both of which fundamentally agree on every single point, except the one where we believe that in some cases, men cannot consciously decide to stop themselves from committing a rape, and the other argues that man can stop themselves from committing rape, but choose not to.

    I think there's nothing to really prove or disprove either side. I personally believe that anyone could control themselves and just subconsciously would choose not to. Neither really matters though. You cannot argue insanity to plead rape in the third degree, vs premeditated rape in the first degree. That distinction simply doesn't exist, nor should it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    Unfortunately for you, dictionaries are not authorities on the definitions of words.
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  4. #1024
    Herald of the Titans Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    "All these views share a common misconception: they all assume that the offender's behavior is primarily motivated by sexual desire and that rape is directed toward gratifying only this sexual need. Quite to the contrary, careful clinical study of offenders reveals that rape is in fact serving primarily nonsexual needs. It is the sexual expression of power and anger. Forcible sexual assault is motivated more by retaliatory and compensatory motives than by sexual ones. Rape is a pseudosexual act, complex and multidetermined, but addressing issues of hostility (anger) and control (power) more than passion (sexuality). To regard rape as an expression of sexual desire is not only an inaccurate notion but also an insidious assumption, for it results in the shifting of the responsibility for the offense in large part from the offender onto the victim: if the assailant is sexually aroused and is directing these impulses toward the victim, then it must be that she has deliberately or inadvertently stimulated or aroused this desire in him through her actions, style of dress, or some such feature"

    Page 2

    http://www.questia.com/read/10036678...f-the-offender


    "Most experts believe the primary cause of rape is an aggressive desire to dominate the victim rather than an attempt to achieve sexual fulfillment. They consider rape an act of violence rather than principally a sexual encounter. Research states that some men do not ejaculate during rape. This proves that whatever is driving this section of men to rape is more than the sexual drive."


    http://www.youthkiawaaz.com/2010/01/...dliest-sinner/



    Rape is usually not about sex at all according to psychology.
    That's great and I respect that but to me no science is finite, that's the very nature of science. If you were tying to prove I was wrong and back up Regennis & Co though, then you did a piss poor job of it because with people like Regennis and Endus those studies wouldn't even exist, hell they're saying that to even think about the subject is wrong and somehow condones rape. It's what they're saying that's simply ridiculous.
    Last edited by Arganis; 2013-02-12 at 12:56 AM.

  5. #1025
    Scarab Lord Jevlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    and yet 9 out of 10 rape victims are female, and every female in the US has a 1 in 6 chance of being raped in her life.
    Women are also more likely to report rape than a man is. Women do probably get raped more often than men and they also report such things more often. While rape against either gender is incredibly violating. For men it's also a display of weakness and they tend to feel less of a man, they are now women in their own eyes. You was made another mans bitch and it's a disgrace in your mind. This isn't something every man wants to report and make known to the public. Therefor it gets reported less often.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    Just how can it become too strong to control?
    Some people just don't know any better and others doesn't give a fuck. Someone who already has a skewed view to what consented sex is isn't going to improve his view when wielding a full blown boner in the same room as the tool to get rid of said boner. Some people are just really really dumb and others are just evil. There is absolutely NO justification for it, but there always is a reason and motivation.
    Something, Something, Something, Dark Side.

  6. #1026
    Wow. You really have no idea what feminism is.

    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    Really annoys me when women have these ridiculous preconceptions about men.
    I can't stand feminism, it's turned our world in to women can say and do what ever the fuck they want about men, and we just have to eat it.
    In a world of deceit, open your eyes.

  7. #1027
    Legendary! Reg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    Nobody ever talked about anything being "justifiable" at least I didn't. So don't go branding me for things I didn't do. Psychiatry isn't a social science pal. Nobody will ever have the complete explanation about anything, not even in physics, but that's not a reason not to try because if you don't try you can't progress. I'm sorry but if truly think what I'm saying is ridiculous then you're just a fool and deluded fool at that.
    How many times did you agree with posts made by Sorrior in which he said, and I am paraphrasing, "One you're having sex, you can't just stop if she says no." That's attempting to justify their reasoning. And psychiatry is indeed a social science, except they're allowed to throw meds at a problem. Neurology would be the only science with any bearing in fact or testable theory. And as far as neurology goes, there are no receptors in the brain that operate on a different level between rapists and non-rapists brains. The only difference is a rapist makes a conscious decision to go through with it.
    Last edited by Reg; 2013-02-12 at 12:44 AM.

  8. #1028
    I am Murloc! Tiili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin View Post

    Someone who already has a skewed view to what consented sex is isn't going to improve his view when wielding a full blown boner in the same room as the tool to get rid of said boner.
    Sorry, what?! We're no tools someone can just use for their own pleasure.
    Last edited by Tiili; 2013-02-12 at 12:45 AM.
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  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    - have at least one friend when going out to drink
    - dont walk alone at night if you can help it
    - be home before dark
    - be very aware of your surroundings
    - have some kind of alarm or defense
    - dont unlock your car before you get to it
    - try not to be alone in a room for very long with a stranger or acquaintance
    Had no idea you were that defensive (you as in all). From those "safty rules", it sounds like you are scared all the time, especially the part were you cant be in the same room with a stranger for a long period of time.
    The car unlock and be aware of your surroundings, sounds like you go around thinking "someone will attack me now".
    "Dont go out after dark", good that you dont live where the sun is gone for 3months then (like here)!

  10. #1030
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    If I'm trying to say that there can be "motivations" for rape other than "domination" and "misogyny" then I'm certainly not saying rape is ok or that it's justified because it might be A: hormones or B: mommy issues.
    I've disputed that hormones are a factor, at all. Guys who don't rape have the same hormones; that's not a variable that ties into rape.

    Mommy issues result in the need to dominate and/or the misogyny that are the central root; you're just explaining WHY they developed those attitudes.

    Feel free to provide other issues. They basically boil down to aggressive domination and a belief that women aren't your equal. Vanyali linked some sources up above, there. Trying to turn it into cases where the woman turned him on and then shut him down plays out like an attempt to shift partial blame to the woman, by bringing up her refusal to submit as a "motivation". That's the issue, and why I've been attacking it.

  11. #1031
    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    That's great and I respect that but to me no science is finite, that's the very nature of science. If you were tying to prove I was wrong you did a piss poor job of it because with people like Regennis and Endus those studies wouldn't even exist, hell they're saying to even thinking about the subject is wrong and somehow condones rape. It's simply ridiculous.
    YOU called on psychology to agree with you, when it doesn't - rape is about power, domination, and control rather than sex. Anyone saying that someone could rape because they "can't" stop.. that's what people said in the 70s, actually. Rapists were declared to have a mental disorder because they couldn't "control their urges". Further research shows that was wrong.

    Saying that you don't believe in the science that's being presented now and agreeing with information that was DISPROVEN because science isn't "finite" (i'm guessing infinite is the word you want ) seems a little backward.

  12. #1032
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    If you were tying to prove I was wrong and back up Regennis & Co though, then you did a piss poor job of it because with people like Regennis and Endus those studies wouldn't even exist, hell they're saying that to even think about the subject is wrong and somehow condones rape. It's what they're saying that's simply ridiculous.
    That's not what I've been saying, at all.

  13. #1033
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    and yet 9 out of 10 rape victims are female, and every female in the US has a 1 in 6 chance of being raped in her life.
    Semi-correct on the first one, survey's out on the second.

    The first one: After age 18, it's about 9:1, yes. Up to age 18, it's closer to 4:1. This presumably has to do with the perception of children and women as weak, thus making them better targets for rapists; once a male has reached maturity, the perception is that he is better able to defend himself. (Though of course one would then ask why grown men are more likely to be targets of all other types of violent crime.)

    Anyway, the best I can do with this data is to extrapolate, based on an approximately 3:1 ratio of 18+ to under 18, that over a full lifetime, it's more like 8:1 than 9:1

    For the second one, the data around how likely a woman is to be raped during her lifetime are essentially impossible to untangle for anyone interested in an honest look at the numbers. Depending on where you look, anywhere from 10% (from some government data) to 85% of rapes (from rape victim advocacy groups) are unreported. That is such a huge disparity that there is no good way to determine what's real and what's not. Anyway, the 1 in 6 extrapolates from a lot of shaky data.

    Regardless, the point is the same: yes, a lot of women are raped. I get that that's your point, I just take issue with bad data in all forms.

    My question to you, of course, is why you're so interested in pointing out that women are more likely to be victimized sexually, but you don't care that men are more likely to be beaten, stabbed, shot, murdered, etc. The topic is fear among women, and my point, as should be clear, is that men have more to fear than women do.

  14. #1034
    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    The problem here is with that kind of reasoning you can't have any kind of constructive discussion. It reminds me of people centuries ago that wouldn't acknowledge the Earth might be round because they though even thinking such things was against god's divine will. That's just stupid. If I'm trying to say that there can be "motivations" for rape other than "domination" and "misogyny" then I'm certainly not saying rape is ok or that it's justified because it might be A: hormones or B: mommy issues. I'm just advancing possible theories that might advance our understanding as a whole and the fact people can refuse that in bulk and act like you're some kind of witch because you even though of might possibly go through the mind of rapist is akin to people refusing to consider the Earth was round just cause they thought there was no point in thinking about it and to think about it all was somehow wrong and meant you were evil.
    This is an absurd comparison. No one is denying that rapists have mental issues, so everyone believes the world is round. The misunderstanding comes from people knowing that there are a lot of varied reasons that lead to rape, but other than justify women's fear in having so many reasons, the point seems lost.

    No one is denying there is something wrong with rapists. People do understand that people who rape have mental issues. The problem, is you are trying to understand why people rape in a thread discussing women having a fear of rape. Unless you believe that women, in some part, are at fault for the mental state the men is in. There is no reason to delve into the multitude of reasons why people rape, when that will not help the fear. In context, it feels like either blame of the woman or justification...

    Are you really shocked that people would not want to look from a rapists perspective? Do you understand what rape is, without trying to see it from a rapists perspective?
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  15. #1035
    Herald of the Titans Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
    How many times did you agree with posts made by Sorrior in which he said, and I am paraphrasing, "One you're having sex, you can't just stop if she says no." That's attempting to justify their reasoning. And psychiatry is indeed a social science, except they're allowed to throw meds at a problem. Neurology would be the only science with any bearing in fact or testable theory. And as far as neurology goes, there are no receptors in the brain that operate on a different level between rapists and non-rapists brains. The only difference is a rapist makes a conscious decision to go through with it.
    Listen, you're just getting caught in quicksand with your argument and you know it. If you want to be right, then you'll be right. So go ahead and be right, I don't care. We're done here.

  16. #1036
    Scarab Lord Jevlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    Sorry, what?!
    Let me guess... Now you're going to start a shitfeast because I objectified the rape victim(for the sake of simplicity) and therefor in your mind I'm a sexist moron with no regards towards women?
    Something, Something, Something, Dark Side.

  17. #1037
    Bloodsail Admiral Talokami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspect of Death View Post
    Had no idea you were that defensive (you as in all). From those "safty rules", it sounds like you are scared all the time, especially the part were you cant be in the same room with a stranger for a long period of time.
    The car unlock and be aware of your surroundings, sounds like you go around thinking "someone will attack me now".
    "Dont go out after dark", good that you dont live where the sun is gone for 3months then (like here)!
    The sad thing is that, and speaking from first hand experience here, young women in the US are taught that for their safety. That gets hammered into your head over and over from puberty onwards.
    That fabric softener teddy bear...oooh I'm 'a hunt that little bitch down.

  18. #1038
    Herald of the Titans Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    YOU called on psychology to agree with you, when it doesn't - rape is about power, domination, and control rather than sex. Anyone saying that someone could rape because they "can't" stop.. that's what people said in the 70s, actually. Rapists were declared to have a mental disorder because they couldn't "control their urges". Further research shows that was wrong.

    Saying that you don't believe in the science that's being presented now and agreeing with information that was DISPROVEN because science isn't "finite" (i'm guessing infinite is the word you want ) seems a little backward.
    I didn't call on psychology to agree with me in that post. You didn't read anything I said and you're just trying to take their side because you don't like me personally, that's all there is to it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    Are you really shocked that people would not want to look from a rapists perspective? Do you understand what rape is, without trying to see it from a rapists perspective?
    I'm not interested in condoning anything. I'm only interested in exploring possibly different explanation for something, I'm no more a partisan of than murder. Just because you like to think about something and might question it doesn't mean you think highly of it, or whatever other obtuse and righteous nonsense.
    Last edited by Arganis; 2013-02-12 at 12:52 AM.

  19. #1039
    Legendary! Reg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    Listen, you're just getting caught in quicksand with your argument and you know it. If you want to be right, then you'll be right. So go ahead and be right, I don't care. We're done here.
    Quicksand? Really? Because there is ZERO scientific proof that rapists do what they do other than the fact they wanted to, I am in quicksand?

  20. #1040
    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    Listen, you're just getting caught in quicksand with your argument and you know it. If you want to be right, then you'll be right. So go ahead and be right, I don't care. We're done here.
    You just compared going through the mind of a rapist to looking at a horizon!!!!
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