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  1. #981
    The Lightbringer Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin View Post
    Alright then. Just asking since most people seem to confuse justification with reasons to why it happens.
    They don't confuse anything, they just like to sound good saying stuff like: "You're a rapist" and "There's no justification for rape" when that's not all what you've been talking about, just so people that don't read past the first few lines, like Talokami, can throw flowers at them.
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  2. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    They don't confuse anything, they just like to sound good saying stuff like: "You're a rapist" and "There's no justification for rape" when that's not all what you've been talking about, just so people that don't read past the first few lines, like Talokami, can throw flowers at them.
    Exactly. I updated my post but I was too slow. xD

  3. #983
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin View Post
    Exactly. I updated my post but I was too slow. xD
    Uhhhhhh no I don't think that's it. That's certainly not the truth for me.
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  4. #984
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin View Post
    Alright then. Just asking since most people seem to confuse justification with reasons to why it happens.

    I've seen some posts (and my own) saying *This is why it happens* just to later be accused of condoning such actions simply because one recognize why they happen.
    The issue is that those posters try to blame the circumstances, like "he gets all hot and bothered and then she says 'no'", rather than the rapist, for the rape that occurs. By saying "oh, it's motivated by these kinds of situations", what you're really saying is that you should expect that some men would legitimately (if illegally) act this way, in that situation.

    And what the rest of us are saying is "no". Rape occurs in those situations because that particular man has a lack of concern/care for the woman he's with, and decides that getting off is more important than what she wants. So he rapes her. The justifications and motivations are, at their heart, irrelevant. Those same "justifications and motivations" exist for other guys, too, who somehow DON'T choose to rape the girl.

    Because the issues leading to rape aren't those justifications and motivations, as expressed. They're the individual man, who chooses to rape the girl. Those "justifications and motivations" are not causes, they're excuses. They're what he tells himself so that he doesn't see himself for the monster he is. It's no different than a guy saying "my girl said she was gonna leave me, so I killed her". That doesn't mean breaking up with someone is a motivation or justification for murder. It means that particular guy is a violent psycho.

    That's the difference. It doesn't matter to me what their justifications or motivations may be, because they're not valid. They do not justify rape. As such, they're merely excuses, and to be ignored.


  5. #985
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    I'm a pretty shy guy and I would hate for people to make it harder for me to be friendly because they're running away. It really doesn't do anyone any favours when if you're being paranoid for no reason or having such strong negative preconceptions about 50% of the world's population.

    It makes guys feel awkward and like they've done something horribly offensive. It enforces the stereotype that women are helpless and vulnerable to everything.


    To people who were onboard with this whole "better safe than sorry" mentality about avoiding men (Tiili specifically). Do you feel the same towards other women? Are you just nervous around other people in general or does it have to specifically be a man. What about lesbians? What about feminine guys?

    I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be an asshole.

  6. #986
    The Lightbringer Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron View Post
    Uhhhhhh no I don't think that's it. That's certainly not the truth for me.
    One only wonders what the truth is for you. How about you actually state your opinion and makes some full fledged posts instead of always tacking on your one liners to what other people have said.
    Last edited by Arganis; 2013-02-12 at 12:06 AM.
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  7. #987
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron View Post
    Uhhhhhh no I don't think that's it. That's certainly not the truth for me.
    Just saying we shouldn't get lynched for giving our thought to what the reason for rape is. It's like saying : " I know Hitler gazed Jewish people because he thought they were less worth and evolved than his Aryan race" and get replied with "You racists pig! You think jews are less worth than you!"

    Yes, now we have proper Godwin's in here! xD

  8. #988
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    Maybe if 1 in 5 men in the U.S. were going to end up the victims of sexual assault, you might feel differently, OP.

    Maybe the reason women are fearful of men being rapists is because they live in a world where being sexually assaulted is a very real possibility...

  9. #989
    The Lightbringer Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The issue is that those posters try to blame the circumstances, like "he gets all hot and bothered and then she says 'no'", rather than the rapist, for the rape that occurs. By saying "oh, it's motivated by these kinds of situations", what you're really saying is that you should expect that some men would legitimately (if illegally) act this way, in that situation.

    And what the rest of us are saying is "no". Rape occurs in those situations because that particular man has a lack of concern/care for the woman he's with, and decides that getting off is more important than what she wants. So he rapes her. The justifications and motivations are, at their heart, irrelevant. Those same "justifications and motivations" exist for other guys, too, who somehow DON'T choose to rape the girl.

    Because the issues leading to rape aren't those justifications and motivations, as expressed. They're the individual man, who chooses to rape the girl. Those "justifications and motivations" are not causes, they're excuses. They're what he tells himself so that he doesn't see himself for the monster he is. It's no different than a guy saying "my girl said she was gonna leave me, so I killed her". That doesn't mean breaking up with someone is a motivation or justification for murder. It means that particular guy is a violent psycho.

    That's the difference. It doesn't matter to me what their justifications or motivations may be, because they're not valid. They do not justify rape. As such, they're merely excuses, and to be ignored.
    Aaaaaaaaah man I feel like Anakin at the end of Episode III when he's looking up at Obi-Wan from the edge of that lake of lava when I read your posts. You're so full of it. People can discuss the different REASONS for rape taking place without them being an excuse. You're all about "domination" and "misogyny" being the sole motivating factors for rape and yet I don't hear you saying that it "justifies" rape in any way. So why is it when somebody advances something like "hormones" as a possibly different "motivator" for rape you get all high and mighty and act like that's in any way being presented as a valid excuse for rape, on top refuting it's potential validity just because "you said so". Such a hypocrite.
    Last edited by Arganis; 2013-02-12 at 12:14 AM.
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  10. #990
    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
    To be honest, I think something is wrong when people like us have to even respond to topics like this. It really shouldn't be necessary for us to say "Rape is bad." But I understand where you are coming from.
    Rape is wrong and is utterly a disgusting act beyond belief. I cannot think of doing anything worse to a person. I created this thread from noticing the way a few women i know behave and a bunch of posts i have seen on facebook lately(and here) and was wondering if women(and men) take any steps to avoiding the situation as the things i have seen lately a bit ludicrous ( assuming all men are rapists so must be treated as such at all times) though what many of the people here have shown, like tiili explained all seem reasonable to protect yourself. This thread also wasn't meant to be some pity train to attack women with
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  11. #991
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Snip
    Every reason for rape(any crime) boils down to the person not caring about the victim. However, that is not the motivation for the rape. Something me and many others have tried to say. If you don't agree that's up to you. Now, the problem I have is that people start screaming rapist just because they don't AGREE with our version for what motivates it. As I said, recognizing the cause doesn't mean we condone it.

  12. #992
    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    Really, what is this "fucked world views" about men that I supposedly have, as an avowed feminist?
    Sorry for going a bit off topic here, but I would say my entire disagreement with feminism stems from the name, I agree that things were not (and still are not) exactly equal but I also think that both sides have their positives. Basically I think a fairly large portion of feminists want to keep their advantages and equalize their disadvantages. Thereby giving themselves a clear advantage. I think if more feminists called themselves equalitarians or something similar and acknowledged that the grass really isn't that much greener on the other side of the fence (if at all, by that I mean I think we have roughly equal advantages and disadvantages though very rarely equal at the same thing) then I would be more inclined to agree with them.

    That being said there have been some things I've seen you say that I heartily agree with and some that I shake my head and wonder if you really live in the same world that I do.
    God and maths? Hmm, the letter to alpha relation would be 7 - 15 - 4. Since it's all one word, it's safe to assume it's multiplication so it'd be 7*15*4=420. So realistically, god is related to cannabis? Perhaps that's what they were expecting you to write.

  13. #993
    Elemental Lord Reg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    They don't confuse anything, they just like to sound good saying stuff like: "You're a rapist" and "There's no justification for rape" when that's not all what you've been talking about, just so people that don't read past the first few lines, like Talokami, can throw flowers at them.
    It has nothing to do with trying to sound good. There is no REASON for rape. There is no JUSTIFICATION for rape. You and Sorr have been trying to give reasons that would motivate someone to rape, reasons such as having too much testosterone or being too in the heat of moment to realize the person has said no. These aren't reasons or justifications. They are cop outs for people who will rape no matter what. Trying to delve into the mind of someone who will rape you either way is absolutely pointless. Trying to convince people that they had a reason is disgusting.

  14. #994
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin View Post
    Just saying we shouldn't get lynched for giving our thought to what the reason for rape is. It's like saying : " I know Hitler gazed Jewish people because he thought they were less worth and evolved than his Aryan race" and get replied with "You racists pig! You think jews are less worth than you!"

    Yes, now we have proper Godwin's in here! xD
    I..wouldn't lynch you. Enough people in history has been lynched.

    Since the great Arganis wants my opinion I'll give it.


    I'm a shy man/boy I like girls,attractive girls. I don't think I'm the hottest guy on the planet but I do think I'm not horrible either but anyways. I DO NOT believe man cannot control themselves during the process of Sex. I just do not believe it for ONE MINUTE. I also don't think Girls should play mind games with us like sending a "I like you but I really don't and just messing with you." Please don't do mind games, it just annoys me and confuses me." Also please don't slowly drift away from a man that also annoys me. If you like to hug me or men please stay consistent and not mess with my head.

    Also I hate rape and using it incorrectly just annoys me as well but that is not a girl problem. That is a internet issue. Anyways, I'm sure there are reasons behind rapists, revenge, pure malice, power as so commonly known, and among other things. That is not a justification because there is none. Sure people get drunk and lose reason but again this is why I don't drink it just causes problems.

    I do know that rape accusations even false can screw you up. Seems people turn on each other very easily if found out about rape whichh is sad but a crime such as rape is so severe it is the result. It's not right but it's an obvious conclusion. What I think is...and I really stress this FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT JUST CRY RAPE FALSELY You are just hurting actual raped victims with their credability and ruining men's lives. Yes I know men can be raped but I think you can get the idea.


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    THank you and Light guide you.
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  15. #995
    The Lightbringer Arganis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin View Post
    Just saying we shouldn't get lynched for giving our thought to what the reason for rape is. It's like saying : " I know Hitler gazed Jewish people because he thought they were less worth and evolved than his Aryan race" and get replied with "You racists pig! You think jews are less worth than you!"

    Yes, now we have proper Godwin's in here! xD
    Somebody that gets it, thank god, was about to lose my last bit of sanity.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-12 at 01:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron View Post
    I..wouldn't lynch you. Enough people in history has been lynched.

    Since the great Arganis wants my opinion I'll give it.


    I'm a shy man/boy I like girls,attractive girls. I don't think I'm the hottest guy on the planet but I do think I'm not horrible either but anyways. I DO NOT believe man cannot control themselves during the process of Sex. I just do not believe it for ONE MINUTE. I also don't think Girls should play mind games with us like sending a "I like you but I really don't and just messing with you." Please don't do mind games, it just annoys me and confuses me." Also please don't slowly drift away from a man that also annoys me. If you like to hug me or men please stay consistent and not mess with my head.

    Also I hate rape and using it incorrectly just annoys me as well but that is not a girl problem. That is a internet issue. Anyways, I'm sure there are reasons behind rapists, revenge, pure malice, power as so commonly known, and among other things. That is not a justification because there is none. Sure people get drunk and lose reason but again this is why I don't drink it just causes problems.

    I do know that rape accusations even false can screw you up. Seems people turn on each other very easily if found out about rape whichh is sad but a crime such as rape is so severe it is the result. It's not right but it's an obvious conclusion. What I think is...and I really stress this FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT JUST CRY RAPE FALSELY You are just hurting actual raped victims with their credability and ruining men's lives. Yes I know men can be raped but I think you can get the idea.


    Hitler disapproves this message. I now invoke Godwin's law again.

    THank you and Light guide you.
    At least now you have my respect.
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  16. #996
    Elemental Lord Reg's Avatar
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    This thread has turned into a bad OJ Simpson book. Instead of writing about if he did kill his wife, it has turned in to "Well I wouldn't rape, but if I did, this would be why".

  17. #997
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    Aaaaaaaaah man I feel like Anakin at the end of Episode III when he's looking up at Obi-Wan from the edge of that lake of lava when I read your posts. You're so full of it. People can discuss the different REASONS for rape taking place without them being an excuse. You're all about "domination" and "misogyny" being the sole motivating factors for rape and yet I don't hear you saying that it "justifies" rape in any way. So why is it when somebody advances something like "hormones" as a possibly different "motivator" for rape you get all high and mighty and act like that's in any way being presented as a valid excuse for rape, on top refuting it's potential validity just because "you said so". Such a hypocrite.
    I think you missed the entire point of his post. He's never justified rape and I don't really see where you're getting that. I think he finds issue with other people trying to shift any blame off on the woman... i.e. "Women shouldn't put themselves in the situation where they turn a man on then say no because his hormones might take over!"

    I can think of ZERO circumstances where blame can be shifted onto the woman, except in cases where no rape occurred and it's a false accusation... which isn't even a rape in the first place, and are incredibly rare circumstances.

    I see two sides of this discussion. Neither side is "justifying" rape. One side is putting the sole responsibility on the man, while the other is trying to argue that blame can in part be shifted onto the woman. Or am I getting that wrong?
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  18. #998
    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    To people who were onboard with this whole "better safe than sorry" mentality about avoiding men (Tiili specifically). Do you feel the same towards other women? Are you just nervous around other people in general or does it have to specifically be a man. What about lesbians? What about feminine guys?
    Not long ago there was an article about women shouldnt go out with skirts, and "sexy outfits". Because if they then got raped, then it would be their fault because they were dressing that way. And the man who owns the building im renting with, said that he agreed to that, with adding that its also their fault for being out in the middle of the night, and their fault for walking into the wrong streets. Basically said the women who got raped, brought it on themselfs. (Wich i find COMPLETELY retarded thinking). We discussed more (due to atleast twice a week rapes in the area), and he stands by his opinion.

    Anyway! If women were that scared, i dont think they would go alone home from the club etc. Or walk outside after dark. I have personally never experienced women trying to avoid walking past me, atleast not to my knowlege ^^
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  19. #999
    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    I'm a pretty shy guy and I would hate for people to make it harder for me to be friendly because they're running away. It really doesn't do anyone any favours when if you're being paranoid for no reason or having such strong negative preconceptions about 50% of the world's population.

    It makes guys feel awkward and like they've done something horribly offensive. It enforces the stereotype that women are helpless and vulnerable to everything.


    To people who were onboard with this whole "better safe than sorry" mentality about avoiding men (Tiili specifically). Do you feel the same towards other women? Are you just nervous around other people in general or does it have to specifically be a man. What about lesbians? What about feminine guys?

    I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be an asshole.
    you dont go out of your way to avoid men, just take precautions.

    - have at least one friend when going out to drink
    - dont walk alone at night if you can help it
    - be home before dark
    - be very aware of your surroundings
    - have some kind of alarm or defense
    - dont unlock your car before you get to it
    - try not to be alone in a room for very long with a stranger or acquaintance


    all of these are rules women learn for safety, im sure theres more i forgot.

  20. #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Yes we can but sometimes for SOME people they CAN become TOO strong to control.
    Just how can it become too strong to control?

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