Page 51 of 65 FirstFirst ...
41
49
50
51
52
53
61
... LastLast
  1. #1001
    Immortal Reg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Manhattan
    Posts
    7,756
    This thread has turned into a bad OJ Simpson book. Instead of writing about if he did kill his wife, it has turned in to "Well I wouldn't rape, but if I did, this would be why".

  2. #1002
    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    Aaaaaaaaah man I feel like Anakin at the end of Episode III when he's looking up at Obi-Wan from the edge of that lake of lava when I read your posts. You're so full of it. People can discuss the different REASONS for rape taking place without them being an excuse. You're all about "domination" and "misogyny" being the sole motivating factors for rape and yet I don't hear you saying that it "justifies" rape in any way. So why is it when somebody advances something like "hormones" as a possibly different "motivator" for rape you get all high and mighty and act like that's in any way being presented as a valid excuse for rape, on top refuting it's potential validity just because "you said so". Such a hypocrite.
    I think you missed the entire point of his post. He's never justified rape and I don't really see where you're getting that. I think he finds issue with other people trying to shift any blame off on the woman... i.e. "Women shouldn't put themselves in the situation where they turn a man on then say no because his hormones might take over!"

    I can think of ZERO circumstances where blame can be shifted onto the woman, except in cases where no rape occurred and it's a false accusation... which isn't even a rape in the first place, and are incredibly rare circumstances.

    I see two sides of this discussion. Neither side is "justifying" rape. One side is putting the sole responsibility on the man, while the other is trying to argue that blame can in part be shifted onto the woman. Or am I getting that wrong?
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
    Storing crap in a hole is pretty easy and efficient.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    I just spent 15 minutes looking at images of bacon tattoos. :P I think that's enough internet for tonight.

  3. #1003
    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    To people who were onboard with this whole "better safe than sorry" mentality about avoiding men (Tiili specifically). Do you feel the same towards other women? Are you just nervous around other people in general or does it have to specifically be a man. What about lesbians? What about feminine guys?
    Not long ago there was an article about women shouldnt go out with skirts, and "sexy outfits". Because if they then got raped, then it would be their fault because they were dressing that way. And the man who owns the building im renting with, said that he agreed to that, with adding that its also their fault for being out in the middle of the night, and their fault for walking into the wrong streets. Basically said the women who got raped, brought it on themselfs. (Wich i find COMPLETELY retarded thinking). We discussed more (due to atleast twice a week rapes in the area), and he stands by his opinion.

    Anyway! If women were that scared, i dont think they would go alone home from the club etc. Or walk outside after dark. I have personally never experienced women trying to avoid walking past me, atleast not to my knowlege ^^
    “The worst thing I can be is the same as everybody else. I hate that.”

  4. #1004
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Cho'gall (US)
    Posts
    6,493
    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    I'm a pretty shy guy and I would hate for people to make it harder for me to be friendly because they're running away. It really doesn't do anyone any favours when if you're being paranoid for no reason or having such strong negative preconceptions about 50% of the world's population.

    It makes guys feel awkward and like they've done something horribly offensive. It enforces the stereotype that women are helpless and vulnerable to everything.


    To people who were onboard with this whole "better safe than sorry" mentality about avoiding men (Tiili specifically). Do you feel the same towards other women? Are you just nervous around other people in general or does it have to specifically be a man. What about lesbians? What about feminine guys?

    I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be an asshole.
    you dont go out of your way to avoid men, just take precautions.

    - have at least one friend when going out to drink
    - dont walk alone at night if you can help it
    - be home before dark
    - be very aware of your surroundings
    - have some kind of alarm or defense
    - dont unlock your car before you get to it
    - try not to be alone in a room for very long with a stranger or acquaintance


    all of these are rules women learn for safety, im sure theres more i forgot.

  5. #1005
    I am Murloc! Tiili's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    5,404
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Yes we can but sometimes for SOME people they CAN become TOO strong to control.
    Just how can it become too strong to control?
    Close your eyes and smile.
    [15:53] <PizzaSHARK> you have such a cute accent! ^_^

  6. #1006
    Herald of the Titans Arganis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Ruhenheim
    Posts
    2,806
    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
    It has nothing to do with trying to sound good. There is no REASON for rape. There is no JUSTIFICATION for rape. You and Sorr have been trying to give reasons that would motivate someone to rape, reasons such as having too much testosterone or being too in the heat of moment to realize the person has said no. These aren't reasons or justifications. They are cop outs for people who will rape no matter what. Trying to delve into the mind of someone who will rape you either way is absolutely pointless. Trying to convince people that they had a reason is disgusting.
    The problem here is with that kind of reasoning you can't have any kind of constructive discussion. It reminds me of people centuries ago that wouldn't acknowledge the Earth might be round because they though even thinking such things was against god's divine will. That's just stupid. If I'm trying to say that there can be "motivations" for rape other than "domination" and "misogyny" then I'm certainly not saying rape is ok or that it's justified because it might be A: hormones or B: mommy issues. I'm just advancing possible theories that might advance our understanding as a whole and the fact people can refuse that in bulk and act like you're some kind of witch because you even though of might possibly go through the mind of rapist is akin to people refusing to consider the Earth was round just cause they thought there was no point in thinking about it and to think about it all was somehow wrong and meant you were evil.

  7. #1007
    Stood in the Fire Kadil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    367
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Heh no THIS is what i HATE. This stereotype that it;s all power. There can be many reasons a man might go insane. NOT just power. You have NO IDEA how powerful a TRULY suppressed male sex drive CAN be.

    It obviously varies and most men never will but there are at LEAST some cases where it comes down to essentially hormonal override of reason. I am NOT saying it is right i AM however saying it is all about power is a lie that makes it easier to try and see things a certain way.
    Don't need to be insane to rape someone, poor excuse.

    I have no idea about suppressed male sex drives? Excuse me, do you know me from someplace? Or perhaps from my one previous post in this thread you were able to know everything about me....

    I'm a man. I work as a commercial diver, sometimes when I work abroad I spend 5-6 months away from home. A typical day for me would be 4 hours in the water, 4 hours in a pressurised chamber, 4 hours back in the water, 4 hours back in the chamber. In the 2 rest breaks I get I still have to find time to eat, wash, sleep etc. Do this for 5 months and then spend 1 month in a decompression chamber, all the while surrounded only by other men and my interests don't flow that way. When I get back home do my urges make me rape my wife if she's not in the mood? No.
    But since you know all about repressed sex drives perhaps you're not as experienced as you might think? Maybe you should find yourself a girlfriend or, failing that, a blow-up doll, we wouldn't want you turning into a rapist now would we? Wouldn't want you to be controlled by your superior testosterone.

    No means no. Stop means stop. Rape is rape. Those are all black and white. Those who don't stop are only using the victim as a means to an end, they are controlling the victim for their own purposes. There is no little lie to try and see things in a certain way.
    Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking.

  8. #1008
    Immortal Reg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Manhattan
    Posts
    7,756
    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    The problem here is with that kind of reasoning you can't have any kind of constructive discussion. It reminds me of people centuries ago that wouldn't acknowledge the Earth might be round because they though even thinking such things was against god's divine will. That's just stupid. If I'm trying to say that there can be "motivations" for rape other than "domination" and "misogyny" then I'm certainly not saying rape is ok or that it's justified because it might be A: hormones or B: mommy issues. I'm just advancing possible theories that might advance our understanding as a whole and the fact people can refuse that in bulk and act like you're some kind of witch because you even though of might possibly go through the mind of rapist is akin to people refusing to consider the Earth was round just cause they thought there was no point in thinking about it and to think about it all was somehow wrong and meant you were evil.
    You analogy falls completely flat simply because following your train of thought, science can prove there is reason behind rape. It can't and there isn't. Rape is a moral choice. Get over it. There is no constructive discussion.

  9. #1009
    Herald of the Titans Arganis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Ruhenheim
    Posts
    2,806
    Quote Originally Posted by Decklan View Post
    I think you missed the entire point of his post. He's never justified rape and I don't really see where you're getting that. I think he finds issue with other people trying to shift any blame off on the woman... i.e. "Women shouldn't put themselves in the situation where they turn a man on then say no because his hormones might take over!"

    I can think of ZERO circumstances where blame can be shifted onto the woman, except in cases where no rape occurred and it's a false accusation... which isn't even a rape in the first place, and are incredibly rare circumstances.

    I see two sides of this discussion. Neither side is "justifying" rape. One side is putting the sole responsibility on the man, while the other is trying to argue that blame can in part be shifted onto the woman. Or am I getting that wrong?
    Ya you're getting it wrong. He's said time and time again that because I didn't buy into his rape is always about "domination" and "misogyny" but might also be about Y and Z that, not only was I a rapist but what I said condoned rape. It's like listening to a religious zealot five hundred years ago. It's ridiculous and because he won't even try to think about the problem, so it makes me think he only says shit like that because he think it sounds good.
    Last edited by Arganis; 2013-02-12 at 12:34 AM.

  10. #1010
    Just going to throw a few statistics out there:

    Males are about 8 times as likely as females to commit violent crimes.
    Black folks are about 7 times as likely as white folks to commit violent crimes.

    So, if you cross the street when you see a man up ahead, but you think it's racist to cross the street when you see a black person up ahead, you got some 'splainin' to do.

    Also, men are about 20% more likely than women to be the victims of violent crime. Additionally, blacks are about 20% more likely than whites to be the victims of violent crime.

    So, if you're a white female, you're less likely to be victimized than white males, or black people of either gender.

    (All data taken from UCR, NCVS and Census.)
    Last edited by Solo66; 2013-02-12 at 12:31 AM.

  11. #1011
    Herald of the Titans Arganis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Ruhenheim
    Posts
    2,806
    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
    You analogy falls completely flat simply because following your train of thought, science can prove there is reason behind rape. It can't and there isn't. Rape is a moral choice. Get over it. There is no constructive discussion.
    That's where you're wrong and you show your ignorance. Ever hear of psychology, psychiatry? Those are sciences and they've proved many things through deduction and analysis. But nothing I say will make you change your mind because you're just like Endus.

  12. #1012
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Cho'gall (US)
    Posts
    6,493
    Quote Originally Posted by Solo66 View Post
    Just going to throw a few statistics out there:

    Males are about 9 times as likely as females to commit violent crimes.
    Black folks are about 6 times as likely as white folks to commit violent crimes.

    So, if you cross the street when you see a man up ahead, you're only slightly less sexist than the person who crosses the street when they see a black person up ahead is racist.

    Also, men are about 20% more likely than women to be the victims of violent crime. (And if you were curious, blacks are about 20% more likely than whites to be the victims of violent crime.)

    So, if you're a white female, you're less likely to be victimized than white males, or black people of either gender.
    and yet 9 out of 10 rape victims are female, and every female in the US has a 1 in 6 chance of being raped in her life.

  13. #1013
    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    Really annoys me when women have these ridiculous preconceptions about men.
    This this needs to be quoted, society has been doing that to women for years. And though I'm not saying you personally don't realize it, I think people need to realize preconceptions stabs both sides of parties.

    Though it's stupid to think all men will rape you, men have preconceived notions that all women are sluts or less capable in the work place.

  14. #1014
    Immortal Reg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Manhattan
    Posts
    7,756
    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    That's where you're wrong and you show your ignorance. Ever hear of psychology, psychiatry? Those are sciences and they've proved many things through deduction and analysis. But nothing I say will make you change your mind because you're just like Endus.
    Psychology and Psychiatry are social sciences which are completely different. The most brilliant psychologists still don't have reasons for the way the mind works, so trying to arbitrarily say there are reasons in a rapists mind that to him are justifiable is ridiculous.

  15. #1015
    Quote Originally Posted by Arganis View Post
    That's where you're wrong and you show your ignorance. Ever hear of psychology, psychiatry? Those are sciences and they've proved many things through deduction and analysis. But nothing I say will make you change your mind because you're just like Endus.
    "All these views share a common misconception: they all assume that the offender's behavior is primarily motivated by sexual desire and that rape is directed toward gratifying only this sexual need. Quite to the contrary, careful clinical study of offenders reveals that rape is in fact serving primarily nonsexual needs. It is the sexual expression of power and anger. Forcible sexual assault is motivated more by retaliatory and compensatory motives than by sexual ones. Rape is a pseudosexual act, complex and multidetermined, but addressing issues of hostility (anger) and control (power) more than passion (sexuality). To regard rape as an expression of sexual desire is not only an inaccurate notion but also an insidious assumption, for it results in the shifting of the responsibility for the offense in large part from the offender onto the victim: if the assailant is sexually aroused and is directing these impulses toward the victim, then it must be that she has deliberately or inadvertently stimulated or aroused this desire in him through her actions, style of dress, or some such feature"

    Page 2

    http://www.questia.com/read/10036678...f-the-offender


    "Most experts believe the primary cause of rape is an aggressive desire to dominate the victim rather than an attempt to achieve sexual fulfillment. They consider rape an act of violence rather than principally a sexual encounter. Research states that some men do not ejaculate during rape. This proves that whatever is driving this section of men to rape is more than the sexual drive."


    http://www.youthkiawaaz.com/2010/01/...dliest-sinner/



    Rape is usually not about sex at all according to psychology.

  16. #1016
    I am Murloc! Tiili's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    5,404
    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    To people who were onboard with this whole "better safe than sorry" mentality about avoiding men (Tiili specifically). Do you feel the same towards other women?
    Why would I feel like that towards other women? I'm 156 cm and weigh 46 kg, most men are like 25-40 cm taller than me and like double my weight unless they're the skinny types. Other women are usually not anywhere close to that much bigger than me as men are.

    It's not like I avoid men all the time, I avoid men when I'm alone out when it's dark.
    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    Are you just nervous around other people in general or does it have to specifically be a man. What about lesbians?
    I'm always nervous around people I don't know. I don't avoid other women on the other hand, they're not that likely to be able to just overpower me completely due to size difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Methanar View Post
    What about feminine guys?
    Feminine guys as in? They're still likely to be bigger than me and probably stronger.
    Last edited by Tiili; 2013-02-12 at 12:41 AM.
    Close your eyes and smile.
    [15:53] <PizzaSHARK> you have such a cute accent! ^_^

  17. #1017
    Herald of the Titans Arganis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Ruhenheim
    Posts
    2,806
    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
    Psychology and Psychiatry are social sciences which are completely different. The most brilliant psychologists still don't have reasons for the way the mind works, so trying to arbitrarily say there are reasons in a rapists mind that to him are justifiable is ridiculous.
    Nobody ever talked about anything being "justifiable" at least I didn't. So don't go branding me for things I didn't do. Psychiatry isn't a social science pal. Nobody will ever have the complete explanation about anything, not even in physics, but that's not a reason not to try because if you don't try you can't progress. I'm sorry but if truly think what I'm saying is ridiculous then you're just a fool and deluded fool at that.

  18. #1018
    So... there's basically two sides to the argument at this point, both of which fundamentally agree on every single point, except the one where we believe that in some cases, men cannot consciously decide to stop themselves from committing a rape, and the other argues that man can stop themselves from committing rape, but choose not to.

    I think there's nothing to really prove or disprove either side. I personally believe that anyone could control themselves and just subconsciously would choose not to. Neither really matters though. You cannot argue insanity to plead rape in the third degree, vs premeditated rape in the first degree. That distinction simply doesn't exist, nor should it.
    Originally Posted by Bashiok
    Storing crap in a hole is pretty easy and efficient.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    I just spent 15 minutes looking at images of bacon tattoos. :P I think that's enough internet for tonight.

  19. #1019
    Herald of the Titans Arganis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Ruhenheim
    Posts
    2,806
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    "All these views share a common misconception: they all assume that the offender's behavior is primarily motivated by sexual desire and that rape is directed toward gratifying only this sexual need. Quite to the contrary, careful clinical study of offenders reveals that rape is in fact serving primarily nonsexual needs. It is the sexual expression of power and anger. Forcible sexual assault is motivated more by retaliatory and compensatory motives than by sexual ones. Rape is a pseudosexual act, complex and multidetermined, but addressing issues of hostility (anger) and control (power) more than passion (sexuality). To regard rape as an expression of sexual desire is not only an inaccurate notion but also an insidious assumption, for it results in the shifting of the responsibility for the offense in large part from the offender onto the victim: if the assailant is sexually aroused and is directing these impulses toward the victim, then it must be that she has deliberately or inadvertently stimulated or aroused this desire in him through her actions, style of dress, or some such feature"

    Page 2

    http://www.questia.com/read/10036678...f-the-offender


    "Most experts believe the primary cause of rape is an aggressive desire to dominate the victim rather than an attempt to achieve sexual fulfillment. They consider rape an act of violence rather than principally a sexual encounter. Research states that some men do not ejaculate during rape. This proves that whatever is driving this section of men to rape is more than the sexual drive."


    http://www.youthkiawaaz.com/2010/01/...dliest-sinner/



    Rape is usually not about sex at all according to psychology.
    That's great and I respect that but to me no science is finite, that's the very nature of science. If you were tying to prove I was wrong and back up Regennis & Co though, then you did a piss poor job of it because with people like Regennis and Endus those studies wouldn't even exist, hell they're saying that to even think about the subject is wrong and somehow condones rape. It's what they're saying that's simply ridiculous.
    Last edited by Arganis; 2013-02-12 at 12:56 AM.

  20. #1020
    Scarab Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Fuck you, that's where.
    Posts
    4,492
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    and yet 9 out of 10 rape victims are female, and every female in the US has a 1 in 6 chance of being raped in her life.
    Women are also more likely to report rape than a man is. Women do probably get raped more often than men and they also report such things more often. While rape against either gender is incredibly violating. For men it's also a display of weakness and they tend to feel less of a man, they are now women in their own eyes. You was made another mans bitch and it's a disgrace in your mind. This isn't something every man wants to report and make known to the public. Therefor it gets reported less often.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiili View Post
    Just how can it become too strong to control?
    Some people just don't know any better and others doesn't give a fuck. Someone who already has a skewed view to what consented sex is isn't going to improve his view when wielding a full blown boner in the same room as the tool to get rid of said boner. Some people are just really really dumb and others are just evil. There is absolutely NO justification for it, but there always is a reason and motivation.
    Something, Something, Something, Dark Side.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •