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  1. #41
    Rets damage isn't anything to write home about as far as raid dps is concerned. It's not as though it was top tier bleeding edge raid dps and buffing sustained damage without kicking wings in the teeth would break the game. I don't get what all the panic is about.

  2. #42
    u guys do realize that every class have his Own burst right now , but they have better sustain Dmg ,

  3. #43
    The main problem with burst is that if the fight length doesn't line up well with our CDs then we look very weak. I've gotten frustrated when I see my big CDs coming off CD soon and the fight ends just before it happens.

    On the other hand, having those big bursts line up for burn phases or things like when Wind Lord Heroic takes 600% damage is pretty damn cool.

    Overall, though, I'd rather have the sustained damage.

  4. #44
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bilarasgr View Post
    Ret was never able to kill a healer by himself
    Yes they hava all the way up to Cata a Ret could take care of a healer.
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  5. #45
    The Patient Prometheous's Avatar
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    Easiest fix would to be to bring 2h weapon specialization back up to at least 20% and buff censure's damage a tad bit and nothing would change for PvP other than slightly higher burst. For PvE though we'd see a decent increase in our output without being too strong.

  6. #46
    I'd rather have less burst more often. It's just overkill most of the time. Which leads to training/CC spam in PvP. I'd like to see wings at 10%/1min, buff to Sword of Light, GoAK changed to Prot version.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trisrx View Post
    If we keep screaming more sustained, less burst repeatedly, non stop for the next several months, then by the time the 5.4 PTR rolls around blizzard should finally get the message.
    Elemental Shamans have been asking for attention non-stop since Vanilla.

    "Next patch... next patch will be OUR patch!" echoes through the room each and every single time.
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  8. #48
    I really don't understand the people in this thread that say Ret is so great at burst.
    All other classes have high burst as well. Most even higher.
    Heck, I'm ilvl 511 and in 10m I get out-burst by our Mages, Warlocks and Boomkins. Those classes have higher burst AND higher sustained damage.

    So what exactly is so great about our burst, huh? Nothing others don't have as well.

  9. #49
    Personally, I can't complain. I think our sustain could use "work", but I have no problem with sustain at the same time. I feel like theres a certain breach of haste that most ret paladins haven't reached quite yet (somewhere between 8000-9000 haste), that our sustain becomes much better due to lower CDs. This coming tier, the sustain argument should start disappearing IMO.

    I hope people also realize that we dont need a dps increase either, or consider sustain a dps increase. Our DPS is right where it should be, blizz honestly did amazing balancing us this xpac so far.

    I do fairly well in my raids, and usually place top 3. At my ilvl (498), you should be bursting 200kish at the beginning of a fight and sustaining anywhere from 90k-100k at least. Have parses to back it up as well, if needed.

    Edit: PvP wise I agree we aren't very attractive, at least in arenas. I handle myself fairly well in BGs though. I'm not a big pvper, so I can't say much for it. Having AW as a 2m or GotAK a 3m would be much more appropriate.
    Last edited by Swaggles; 2013-02-17 at 07:48 AM.

  10. #50
    High Overlord Trisrx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krekko View Post
    Elemental Shamans have been asking for attention non-stop since Vanilla.
    Clearly shamans shouldnt have turned their back on the light!

    Regarding paladin sustained, blizzard has previously addressed our concerns

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Swaggles View Post
    Personally, I can't complain. I think our sustain could use "work", but I have no problem with sustain at the same time. I feel like theres a certain breach of haste that most ret paladins haven't reached quite yet (somewhere between 8000-9000 haste), that our sustain becomes much better due to lower CDs. This coming tier, the sustain argument should start disappearing IMO.

    I hope people also realize that we dont need a dps increase either, or consider sustain a dps increase. Our DPS is right where it should be, blizz honestly did amazing balancing us this xpac so far.

    I do fairly well in my raids, and usually place top 3. At my ilvl (498), you should be bursting 200kish at the beginning of a fight and sustaining anywhere from 90k-100k at least. Have parses to back it up as well, if needed.
    Try having ilvl 511 gear and getting out dps'ed by Mages and Warlocks in ilvl 505.
    I have around 10k haste. Our DPS is not fine, it is not 'where it should be'. We are not competitive with the other damage dealers in a raid.
    Try raiding with other people who know what they're doing and you'll see how bad Ret is. Being around 20-30% behind Casters is not 'fine'.

    Sustained damage of 90-100k. That's a joke, I do that with my Hunter alt.

    Also, are you implying that 200kish burst is a lot these days? Casters are doing 250k-300k, if not more.
    Last edited by Snuzzfizzle; 2013-02-17 at 04:10 PM.

  12. #52
    I personally prefer more sustained. That said, maybe a glyph that did the job so that people could pick based on their preference?

  13. #53
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snuzzfizzle View Post
    Try having ilvl 511 gear and getting out dps'ed by Mages and Warlocks in ilvl 505.
    I have around 10k haste. Our DPS is not fine, it is not 'where it should be'. We are not competitive with the other damage dealers in a raid.
    Try raiding with other people who know what they're doing and you'll see how bad Ret is. Being around 20-30% behind Casters is not 'fine'.

    Sustained damage of 90-100k. That's a joke, I do that with my Hunter alt.

    Also, are you implying that 200kish burst is a lot these days? Casters are doing 250k-300k, if not more.
    Moonkins are capable of 400K+ burst, Ret doesn't even have the highest burst anymore. We just have the highest burst until people cathch up in gear and then we are just sitting behind someone else the entire way.
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Biggest issue is that someone, somewhere will always cry. You can't please all the people all of the time...sadly in MMOs as large as this, you can rarely please SOME people SOME of the time.

    Just do what's right for the game; if you're afraid to make changes because you'll lose a popularity contest, you're in the wrong line of work.
    Or playing the wrong spec. How can they buff sustained dmg when burst is so high? If they nerf burst then it affects pvp. You arent going to get both.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 12:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    Moonkins are capable of 400K+ burst, Ret doesn't even have the highest burst anymore. We just have the highest burst until people cathch up in gear and then we are just sitting behind someone else the entire way.
    Progressiing on Heroic sha and we havent had a ret in the raid for months. It is hard to gear a spec that isnt competitive with other dps. I can gear a warrior or dk that will do more dps with less gear and adding range solves the problem even better.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 12:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Snuzzfizzle View Post
    Try having ilvl 511 gear and getting out dps'ed by Mages and Warlocks in ilvl 505.
    I have around 10k haste. Our DPS is not fine, it is not 'where it should be'. We are not competitive with the other damage dealers in a raid.
    Try raiding with other people who know what they're doing and you'll see how bad Ret is. Being around 20-30% behind Casters is not 'fine'.

    Sustained damage of 90-100k. That's a joke, I do that with my Hunter alt.

    Also, are you implying that 200kish burst is a lot these days? Casters are doing 250k-300k, if not more.
    Ya the guilds you are in is bad if you are top 3, at least the dps are especially if they are mages or locks. I asked a friend about the dps in his guild because he was having problems progressing, and he said well the Ret is top dps. I knew right then that the lock and two arcane mages must be bad and they were. Dropped the bad mages and now progression is fine and the ret was replaced by a lock, they went from 9/16 normal to full clear.

  15. #55
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Or playing the wrong spec. How can they buff sustained dmg when burst is so high? If they nerf burst then it affects pvp. You arent going to get both.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 12:05 AM ----------



    Progressiing on Heroic sha and we havent had a ret in the raid for months. It is hard to gear a spec that isnt competitive with other dps. I can gear a warrior or dk that will do more dps with less gear and adding range solves the problem even better.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 12:08 AM ----------



    Ya the guilds you are in is bad if you are top 3, at least the dps are especially if they are mages or locks. I asked a friend about the dps in his guild because he was having problems progressing, and he said well the Ret is top dps. I knew right then that the lock and two arcane mages must be bad and they were. Dropped the bad mages and now progression is fine and the ret was replaced by a lock, they went from 9/16 normal to full clear.
    To say you can't kill content w/a Ret is just wrong, We use 1 and at times we used 2 for a good majority of the content. Ret is still find deifnitely not some strong amazing spec but it still does what is needed. Sha on the other hand you need a lot of add damage so it's possible the Ret could be a weak link but AM/Purity make up for being weak on AE. As well a Ret can be top 3 damage done on Sha will be mediocre on add damage.

    Moral is a Ret can kill everything Heroic even as a top 20 US guild the Ret can still be utilized. However you can cut your ties to utility and decrease the overall kill time on fights that have a lot of adds by just not bringing weaker classes.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Or playing the wrong spec. How can they buff sustained dmg when burst is so high? If they nerf burst then it affects pvp. You arent going to get both.
    How is "Easily". There are several factors contributing to Rets burst problem. Modifying any or all of them would do.

    For example - there is an option to have three DPS CDs. HA, GAnK and AW. Getting rid of one would reduce burst capability.
    CDs have an increased effectiveness when they can be stacked. Make it more difficult.
    Look at moves that contribute to burst and reduce their effectiveness.

    So, what if:

    HA was removed. GAnK went to a 10 min CD. ES and LH were reduced in CD and effect by 2/3.

    How much room would there be there to improve Rets sustained damage, even though the class had been left with two strong CDs?

    Alteratively - reduce the effect on players. e.g. AW increases damage by only 10% when the caster is flagged for PvP. Bit of a brute force one there. Or...stacking CDs results in alternate effects; HA plus AW gives you HA plus flight instead of HA plus increased damage.


    EJL

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    How is "Easily". There are several factors contributing to Rets burst problem. Modifying any or all of them would do.

    For example - there is an option to have three DPS CDs. HA, GAnK and AW. Getting rid of one would reduce burst capability.
    CDs have an increased effectiveness when they can be stacked. Make it more difficult.
    Look at moves that contribute to burst and reduce their effectiveness.

    So, what if:

    HA was removed. GAnK went to a 10 min CD. ES and LH were reduced in CD and effect by 2/3.

    How much room would there be there to improve Rets sustained damage, even though the class had been left with two strong CDs?

    Alteratively - reduce the effect on players. e.g. AW increases damage by only 10% when the caster is flagged for PvP. Bit of a brute force one there. Or...stacking CDs results in alternate effects; HA plus AW gives you HA plus flight instead of HA plus increased damage.


    EJL
    GoAK is baseline for all paladins. The talent tree you refer to is HA, SW, and DivPurp; so 2 forms of burst and one "sustained"/RNG thing.

    GoAK is already 5min CD for Ret, I don't see how moving it to 10min is really addressing the problem, since you'd have to put that damage back in somewhere (or double the dmg/scaling of GoAK, which makes burst a worse problem...).

    Your suggestion of putting ES/LH on a 20 sec CD with reduced effect sounds good on paper I guess, but we're already GCD locked as it is. That's the MAIN reason H Prism isn't taken over ES; we simply can't use it on CD, so it's a DPS loss. Unless you're referring to PVP, but I don't think you are.

    I guess I just don't get what you're suggesting: it sounds like you're lobbying to reduce the CD on t90 talents and nerfing GoAK, then calling it good? Thats a (huge) net nerf and QoL downgrade.

    Though, with the suggestion of HA+AW = flight, you may just be trolling, in which case I totally fell for it.

    OT, I'd just like to see CS/TV dmg increased by 5-10% or a Sword of Light buff by 5-10%. Should be plenty to close the delta to an acceptable value for melee. I'd suggest that we reduce AW to 2 mins for all classes and cut the effect to 10-15% dmg/healing to compensate. I'd like to see the burst tier then look like:

    Holy Avenger: 1min CD, 10 sec duration. Increases dmg/healing of HoPo generators by 15% and causes them to generate 3 HoPo instead of 1.
    Sanc Wrath: Increases duration of AW by 50% and grants use of blah blah as normal
    Div Purp: Your abilities that consume HoPo have a 33% chance to cause your next HoPo ability to consume no HoPo AND increases the critical strike chance of that ability by 100%. This buff is not consumed if the ability fails to hit; lasts 10 seconds.

    Biggest changes here are 50% cooldown and effect reduction for HA, and Div Purp now grats 100% crit on the proc special (OMG CAN USE ON WOG IN PVP NAO).
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  18. #58
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    I don't get what the confusion is about lowering the burst and raising the sustained, They do it all the time it's not hard to do in this case we need another Finisher that uses HoPo and our AE needs to be back to Mana only all while making SoTR not require a target. However if they do this I'll be less likely to play my Monk. On top of that they would probably need to lower one ability that has really high DPE to compensate for the burst.

    Now those fixes alone would help, The problem is Ret is built and designed around 1 finisher and in wotlk it wasn't and that is why we had better sustained and less burst. We used DS as a filler from 2PC T10 procing and we did't have TV we weren't pigeon holed into 1 finisher and a finisher that hits for shit on top of it.

    The sustain vs burst is Blizzards fault for trying to fix something that was never broken to begin with. You guys can argue all you want about how Holy Power makes the class skill cap higher and I can argue that unless you have 2 choices for the Holy Power use the skill cap never moved.

    In PvE name one time you actually consider as a DPS using your 3 HoPo for anything but a TV? LoH sure I use that all the time on a tank getting trucked. I also use WoG all the time on 1 fight and that would be Will of the Emperor because I feel like I'm always about to die. Outside of those two fights I can't think of one time I sit there and think hmm I have 3 HoPo maybe I should use this on XYZ instead of dropping another TV.

    Utility is brought to a raid in form of a raid cooldown, tank cooldown or personal cooldown. Not offhealing!
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    GoAK is already 5min CD for Ret, I don't see how moving it to 10min is really addressing the problem, since you'd have to put that damage back in somewhere (or double the dmg/scaling of GoAK, which makes burst a worse problem...).
    Yes. You'd put it back in sustained.

    Your suggestion of putting ES/LH on a 20 sec CD with reduced effect sounds good on paper I guess, but we're already GCD locked as it is. That's the MAIN reason H Prism isn't taken over ES; we simply can't use it on CD, so it's a DPS loss. Unless you're referring to PVP, but I don't think you are.
    The class is GCD locked at times and at other times, its not. If that is an issue, you could always double the duration and half the effect and play around with those values and tweaks instead of looking at the CD. Of course, if ES and LH were reduced in effectiveness, their priority would also likely change, which in turn might mean that they'd become useful gap fillers or powerful situational tools that wouldn't contribute to the burst issue as much.

    The point here is to chop off the top of the mountain that Rets can reach when they go into "burst mode", and use the DPS to fill in the sustained DPS valley. The question is where do you trim the burst and how. You could nerf the CDs, but part of Rets feel is that the CDs is has are powerful and actually feel like they have an impact. You can make them available less frequently by extending the CDs. You can get rid of 1 CD entirely - does the class need HA AND AW AND GAnK? Or you can neuter the moves and offensive abilities themselves in some way - LH and ES in particular.

    There are, in short, several options available to lower burst and transfer that damage to sustained.

    Though, with the suggestion of HA+AW = flight, you may just be trolling, in which case I totally fell for it.
    Would you prefer the old standy of not being able to use two CDs at the same time? Give HA, AW and GAnK Forbearance. The problem with that is you end up using CD after CD after CD and then repeating. The suggestion here is to ensure that HA+AW does not result in an uber-burst situation....to remove damage from the burst phase. In this example, that means that you neuter the burst from one CD but do so in a manner that is perhaps more fun than a simple "forbidden".

    OT, I'd just like to see CS/TV dmg increased by 5-10% or a Sword of Light buff by 5-10%. Should be plenty to close the delta to an acceptable value for melee. I'd suggest that we reduce AW to 2 mins for all classes and cut the effect to 10-15% dmg/healing to compensate.
    I'd consider this a poor option. Reducing AWs CD and effect simply starts to makes it part of the sustained DPS cycle. You get a weak CD that is used often to buff sustained DPS. Inquisition on a longer cycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    The sustain vs burst is Blizzards fault for trying to fix something that was never broken to begin with. You guys can argue all you want about how Holy Power makes the class skill cap higher and I can argue that unless you have 2 choices for the Holy Power use the skill cap never moved.
    I don't think HP makes the skill cap higher. It has the potential to do so, but not the way it is currently implemented. What HP needs is a secondary resource to work off, and greater integration into the skillset of the class.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-02-19 at 11:58 PM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Yes. You'd put it back in sustained.

    The class is GCD locked at times and at other times, its not. If that is an issue, you could always double the duration and half the effect and play around with those values and tweaks instead of looking at the CD. Of course, if ES and LH were reduced in effectiveness, their priority would also likely change, which in turn might mean that they'd become useful gap fillers or powerful situational tools that wouldn't contribute to the burst issue as much.

    The point here is to chop off the top of the mountain that Rets can reach when they go into "burst mode", and use the DPS to fill in the sustained DPS valley. The question is where do you trim the burst and how. You could nerf the CDs, but part of Rets feel is that the CDs is has are powerful and actually feel like they have an impact. You can make them available less frequently by extending the CDs. You can get rid of 1 CD entirely - does the class need HA AND AW AND GAnK? Or you can neuter the moves and offensive abilities themselves in some way - LH and ES in particular.

    There are, in short, several options available to lower burst and transfer that damage to sustained.

    Would you prefer the old standy of not being able to use two CDs at the same time? Give HA, AW and GAnK Forbearance. The problem with that is you end up using CD after CD after CD and then repeating. The suggestion here is to ensure that HA+AW does not result in an uber-burst situation....to remove damage from the burst phase. In this example, that means that you neuter the burst from one CD but do so in a manner that is perhaps more fun than a simple "forbidden".

    I'd consider this a poor option. Reducing AWs CD and effect simply starts to makes it part of the sustained DPS cycle. You get a weak CD that is used often to buff sustained DPS. Inquisition on a longer cycle.

    I don't think HP makes the skill cap higher. It has the potential to do so, but not the way it is currently implemented. What HP needs is a secondary resource to work off, and greater integration into the skillset of the class.

    EJL
    But nowhere did you mention any sustained increase.

    I don't know about you, but with moderate haste values (Ret is an off-spec for me, so ilvl of only 496) there is hardly ever a time where I'm sitting around waiting in PVE content. Any current "filler time" I might get already has sacred shield claiming it. Reducing the effect of our already vastly underwhelming final tier abilities wouldn't solve the issue, and would just make them less interesting than they already are (since they already don't scale with haste, etc.).

    I agree with your mentality of "leveling off the dips" of the roller coaster that is Ret; precisely why I suggested the lowering of CDs, which would do just that. By reducing the height of the peaks, but commensurately increasing their frequency, we see a rise in sustained damage levels without the burden of "balance issues" caused by those high peaks. Total damage stays roughly equal, but you get more options to hit those "fun buttons" and less YouTube all-star videos of stupidly large numbers that set classes back. This way, even if you DO choose to pop them all together, the net cap of %increase is lower than it is currently, overall reducing burst.

    I just don't get the logic here: you suggest lowering the CD and effect of abilities like ES or LH, but doing so to AW is a "poor solution"?
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