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  1. #21
    Id rather high sustained with only marginal/mid burst capabilities than low sustained with high burst capabilities

  2. #22
    Same here. I prefer high sustained damage. High burst and then doing nothing for a couple of minutes (that's how it feels to me) is frustrating imho.

  3. #23
    It is the same for enhance, we are the literal god of war every 3 min and between then its most like "haha look its an enhance in pvp, how cute"

    Lot of classes in need of a complete overhaul
    Time is on our side
    Brutal Gladiator Enhancement Shaman *rawr*

  4. #24
    Once again, I'd like to submit the WW monk as our target for design intent:

    Damage - amazing sustained, minimal burst to speak of (but on a short and reliable CD). Changed slightly in 5.2 to be even better sustained and moderate (to severe) burst on a still short CD.
    Mobility - debatably highest of the melee classes between roll x2(or 3) and FSK.
    CC/peels - "skill based" cc (in SFB being a skill-shot that roots), disable being NOT passive application (but allowing for a root on reapply, AND passive refresh if in range). Also paralysis (now with deadly reach baseline in 5.2!). AAAAND aoe 5sec instant stun on a 45 sec CD (leg sweep) OR Ring of Peace.
    Survival - stupid high avoidance with Sparring (glyphed to deflect spells), Diffuse magic > Devo Aura, ToK > Bubble all day erry day, Expel harm + chi wave (BTW why aren't these Ret pala abilities, seeing as they are retributive?!), fortifying brew, zen med.

    The bones are similar, seeing as both classes have a maintenance buff (Tiger Power, Inquisition) and both have a combo point type system (HoPo, Chi/NRG). But, somewhere along the line, WW (and monk in general) got all the love and we got....well, we got 90% of our ret talents gutted and then regurgitated into our talent tree for all to choose from.
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  5. #25
    Field Marshal Zyphenz's Avatar
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    Actually I play retri (pve) because I love the burst. Dont really care about the low sustain, it kinda evens itself out over a whole fight.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphenz View Post
    Actually I play retri (pve) because I love the burst. Dont really care about the low sustain, it kinda evens itself out over a whole fight.
    On a patchwerk fight, yes it might even out, but youll still end up mid to lower end of the dps if your playing with equally skilled people (also you place on dps will be determined also by the fight length and how many cd phases you can roll out). Issue with the burst model is its VERY unforgiving if you cant get 30sec of uninterupted dps on the target, each and every time AW comes off cooldown

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  7. #27
    yeah i hope that blizz open his eyes for ret community and lower the burst and giving us something between our cd's... we are nothing without cd's... thats so awful

  8. #28
    Herald of the Titans Aqua's Avatar
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    It needs looking into, I mean in the few times I get to play Ret I can surpass everyone on damage for the pull and then watch my damage slowly creep further and further down the list until the time comes where I can kick it in the ass back to the middle for a little bit. It's extremely demoralizing and whining about 'but that's the ret playstyle' smacks of 'well we don't know what to do with you actually and we're using other players as our invisible barricade of justification'.
    Ret is predictable in PvP and very unstable in PvE. It's not really working for anyone, it's just players putting up with it (or afraid of change)because they love the idea of a ret paladin (and believe me I DO) or like to play god every 3 minutes, but my raid doesn't ever want to utilize me asides a few choice fights, I'm far more useful being a stable healer than I ever would be in full BiS gear for ret...
    Quote Originally Posted by savutitus View Post
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Felir View Post
    Just buff Censure damage and give us Consecration back np
    thats what i was thinking

  10. #30
    In PvE, a decently geared Ret Paladin will sit around 4-7 in recount dmg done (at least i am anyway) behind good hunters, DKs, and Locks/Mages. If you have the 4-piece set bonus, lowering the CD on your Avenging wrath, after burst you can hit 1-2 on recount dmg done. But trash pulls that require tons of AoE, which is most, will cause Ret Paladins to fall behind (hopefully 5.2 will change that)
    ---
    In PVP, Our sustained is terrible. I have been testing out different glyph/talent combinations to see what works. The cookie cutter Ret pally glyph/talent set, for me, has problems sticking on ranged classes (taking 30sec HoJ giving up the snare) but using Seal of Justice sucks (hopefully 5.2 will change that). Taking BoG will help you stick to a target but with our sustained so low, we cant kill anyone while waiting on our 1 min stun to come off CD. That, along with the fact that we have no reliable defenses make us bottom tier melee, along with enhancement shammies.
    ---
    For RBGs, I wont even bother explaining why no Rbg leader will take a Ret as its very common knowledge. but for those who dont know, Ret Paladins do not bring anything to the table that a holy paladin cant bring and wastes a spot that could be used for a dps with twice as much sustained
    ---
    Blizzard , i think, is trying to buff our survivability by buffing our healing thru PvP power. They figure,"if rets can heal themselves more, they wont need more actual abilities that help them to survive, their increased healing should do the trick"

  11. #31
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Once again, I'd like to submit the WW monk as our target for design intent:

    Damage - amazing sustained, minimal burst to speak of (but on a short and reliable CD). Changed slightly in 5.2 to be even better sustained and moderate (to severe) burst on a still short CD.
    Mobility - debatably highest of the melee classes between roll x2(or 3) and FSK.
    CC/peels - "skill based" cc (in SFB being a skill-shot that roots), disable being NOT passive application (but allowing for a root on reapply, AND passive refresh if in range). Also paralysis (now with deadly reach baseline in 5.2!). AAAAND aoe 5sec instant stun on a 45 sec CD (leg sweep) OR Ring of Peace.
    Survival - stupid high avoidance with Sparring (glyphed to deflect spells), Diffuse magic > Devo Aura, ToK > Bubble all day erry day, Expel harm + chi wave (BTW why aren't these Ret pala abilities, seeing as they are retributive?!), fortifying brew, zen med.

    The bones are similar, seeing as both classes have a maintenance buff (Tiger Power, Inquisition) and both have a combo point type system (HoPo, Chi/NRG). But, somewhere along the line, WW (and monk in general) got all the love and we got....well, we got 90% of our ret talents gutted and then regurgitated into our talent tree for all to choose from.
    This is exactly why I now play a Monk not just the sustained damage but the entire spec design really feels like they put a lot of effort into it. In fact some of the design ideas I bet you could find on old Ret posts where an experienced Ret was suggesting them as a fix it wouldn't surprise me a bit. I haven't had fun as Ret since the HoPo system was added because I felt all along the way we needed a second finisher and not an AE finisher.

    Monks have 2 finishers, Sure I can't burst up to 300K+ like my Ret could but at the end of the fight on some cases but not all I'm neck in neck with everyone else. Plus a better AE design, a great PvP toolkit all in all I love the Windwalker spec it's what Ret could and imo should be.

    Don't even get me started on PvP, Ret's downfall is the burst and the bubble both are highly visible. Shit Ret has wings CC him and /lol at him, Ret bubbled wait for bubble and kill him he has no other defensive cd's.

    If you are a Ret and you don't enjoy it, Roll a Monk it's a Ret without being a Paladin......

    Monk Ilevel 505 - 6:48 second fight time - 248K RDPS



    Ret ilevel 513 BiS - 6:04 fight time 275K RDPS



    I'm not saying windwalker is better than ret and the 1 min fight time could have had Anaxie parsing higher could have been another set of wings. What I'm saying is I didn't need that extra set of wings I just did it with normal DPS rotation.
    Last edited by Requital; 2013-02-15 at 07:40 PM.
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  12. #32
    Instead of complaining that ret needs more sustained dmg why not suggest abilities that could be reworked for an increase in dps. Blizzard may see this thread, think what a bunch of idiots whining over nothing and continue onto the next thread...

    IMO buffs to CS, HotR, baseline cd of wings at 2mins all need to be implemented. On a side note, allowing seal of truth to stack more than 5 stacks of censure on 1 target would be amazing for sustained dmg.

    Also, how can you compare ret to monks. Monks are the new class and blizzard wants people to play them and level them, why would anyone do that if they couldnt perform well. It was the same when dks were released

    P.S. Whats with the above image? Neither monk or pally is doing the dps u say they are, and what fight is it
    Last edited by Licmyseal; 2013-02-15 at 09:34 PM.

  13. #33
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Licmyseal View Post
    Instead of complaining that ret needs more sustained dmg why not suggest abilities that could be reworked for an increase in dps. Blizzard may see this thread, think what a bunch of idiots whining over nothing and continue onto the next thread...

    IMO buffs to CS, HotR, baseline cd of wings at 2mins all need to be implemented. On a side note, allowing seal of truth to stack more than 5 stacks of censure on 1 target would be amazing for sustained dmg.

    Also, how can you compare ret to monks. Monks are the new class and blizzard wants people to play them and level them, why would anyone do that if they couldnt perform well. It was the same when dks were released
    So you are talking about suggesting things we have been suggesting for 3 years again just in case they didn't see them when they used them for other classes? Ya sorry been there done that.

    Sorry you are as far from wrong as you could possibly be. Monks aren't OP upon release they were actually a little under powered. DK's were massively broken over powered causing tons of issues. Monk vs Ret is the best comparison you can have because the classes are sooo similar it's not even funny.

    P.S. Whats with the above image? Neither monk or pally is doing the dps u say they are, and what fight is it
    The image is Lei Shi Heroic and those numbers are perfectly legit in fact slightly lower than they could be.
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  14. #34
    I feel that ret needs that burst for pvp and there are plenty of situations that it can be used in pve. What does the community think of maybe reducing it to a 1 minute cd similar to how pillar of frost is set up and just reducing either its duration or effectiveness.

    10 seconds of great burst or 20 seconds of decent burst.

    Personally I feel that if you cut some of our damage off our cds and instead buffed our other abilities it would be better. As Requital pointed out with Anaxie the duration of a fight really makes or breaks our dps. There have been fights where I am top dps because I got cds at the end, but then there are fights where I didn't get cds back up and dropped to the bottom of dps. Issue is if you nerf wings pallys scream, but if you keep wings you can't have sustained because it would increase our burst too much.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Nando1991 View Post
    I miss the days when i was able to kill a healer as retribution.
    Ret was never able to kill a healer by himself

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Nando1991 View Post
    Hello, i have been playing a Ret paladin since the vanilla days (boring in vanilla, yes, thank you, i know.)

    I was reading this blue post, (Ghostcrawler)? Claiming that many Ret's "cry" when discussing changing our high burst too some more sustained damage.

    I am asking myself: What Ret Pala, in they're right mind is claiming that we shouldnt have some more sustained damage over our high burst?

    We are, and have been for a long time, so predictable to play against in arena, whenever a ret paladin is popping wings, you CC the sh*t outta him, until theyre gone, after that, he really cant do anything.

    I miss the days when i was able to kill a healer as retribution.

    The other day i wanted to do my weekly conquest points, i found a full malevolent resto druid that i think i would give it a go with. What was he's reply? "No thanks, too much pain playing with a ret." - And i couldnt do nothin' but agree with him, it would take me days to get a good healer down, IF i can even kill him. Cause healers dont even go OOM these days, do they?

    Anyways, this post was really too get it out there, that either Blizzard is calling bullsh*t on Ret's atm, or they just dont care. I simply cannot get convinced that the majority of Rets, wouldnt swap out some burst for some more sustained damage. This could be one of MANY things, that could be done to help us out.

    Cheers for reading, leave a reply!
    Personally I'd be happier with sustained damage over a short burst every three or so minutes.

    As far as what the Blue-Post said....well, all classes do that. That they are highlighting it with Paladins just tells me they don't know how to fix the dps.

  17. #37
    I am Murloc! Thelxi's Avatar
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    Sustained definitely.

  18. #38
    Reroll, ret was always about a burst. We dont need more homogenization.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Trisrx View Post
    Only a couple months ago ret was "right where we want it". But eventually it got through to blizz that ret needed some attention. If we keep screaming more sustained, less burst repeatedly, non stop for the next several months, then by the time the 5.4 PTR rolls around blizzard should finally get the message.
    And then 6.0 can come out, every other class get loads of new things, paladins can get the 'hand-me-down' abilities that classes got back in wotlk/cata and we'll be "right where they want again"

  20. #40
    In my eyes ret has always been about their burst and that's why I like my ret

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