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  1. #41
    Actually Filth is right more or less. Statistically it really matters, how big the number of players for each specc is. Those parses on WoL etc. are often very depending on procc luck, raid buffs, raid dps etc. RNG is very important. If you have 1000000 parses of affliction and only 1000 of destro, its very likely that you can find lots of very "lucky" affliction warlocks which will rank. As an example for this phenomenon you just have to look at arcane mages after they got buffed. According to raidbots they went from lower middle of the pack to #1 within two weeks. Sure, they got buffed but those buffs didn't double arcane dps. It's just a statistical phenomenon...

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogaeu View Post
    Actually Filth is right more or less. Statistically it really matters, how big the number of players for each specc is. Those parses on WoL etc. are often very depending on procc luck, raid buffs, raid dps etc. RNG is very important. If you have 1000000 parses of affliction and only 1000 of destro, its very likely that you can find lots of very "lucky" affliction warlocks which will rank.

    THATS why you are not watching all top 200-300 but only few players - best of the best. Those players that can get EVERYTHING thats needed for doing top DPS and we cant call RNG (btw putting raid dps/raid buffs as and RNG ??? are you serious ?). Also we cant just write that their best shoots was all the time with bad RNG, same as we cant say it was best possible. Just that when you are watching on top reports only, wheres everything is exactly same, and you can see 10-20% differences - no its not RNG. Its way to big differences just for only RNG.


    As an example for this phenomenon you just have to look at arcane mages after they got buffed. According to raidbots they went from lower middle of the pack to #1 within two weeks. Sure, they got buffed but those buffs didn't double arcane dps. It's just a statistical phenomenon...
    Once again - DONT MAKE EXAMPLES IF YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO DO IT.

    Im writing that you should only watch top 5-10 reports you are writing its bad thing and ... as a proof you are giving me what ? raidbots before and after arcane mage buff !!! Raidbots is opposite what im trying to tell you !!! Raidbots are just avarage results from XXX reports. Im telling you to just focus on best ones.

    Also once again - in demo we have atm players from top guilds (once again - first and second guild in the world atm for example), that are playing demo a lot - some of them even before MoP, they are BiS geared locks, their guilds DPS is one of the highest. So atm its a perfect situation to compare those 2 spec.
    Last edited by kandalanu; 2013-02-13 at 10:36 AM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    Also once again - in demo we have atm players from top guilds (once again - first and second guild in the world atm for example), that are playing demo a lot - some of them even before MoP, they are BiS geared locks, their guilds DPS is one of the highest. So atm its a perfect situation to compare those 2 spec.
    This is wrong. In 10 man I have 6 top 5 rankings on heroic bosses as demo. I'm pretty sure I can increase every single one of those parses by either cheesing, better procs, luck, rng and playing better. I'm not the best demo lock out there but I'm equally not a complete noob. I'm Ilvl 506 and still a fair way from BiS (I have a freaking LFR offhand.)

    Not enough people play demonology for us to even be able look at the top 5 ranks for a given fight and use that data to determine the most accurate representations of the spec's limits. It has a lot more potential than lots of the community give it - especially considering the huge amount of utility the spec can bring.
    Last edited by Whabam; 2013-02-13 at 12:58 PM.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Whabam View Post
    This is wrong. In 10 man I have 6 top 5 rankings on heroic bosses as demo. I'm pretty sure I can increase every single one of those parses by either cheesing, better procs, luck, rng and playing better. I'm not the best demo lock out there but I'm equally not a complete noob. I'm Ilvl 506 and still a fair way from BiS (I have a freaking LFR offhand.)

    Not enough people play demonology for us to even be able look at the top 5 ranks for a given fight and use that data to determine the most accurate representations of the spec's limits. It has a lot more potential than lots of the community give it - especially considering the huge amount of utility the spec can bring.
    First of all i dont know why you made statement that you are more than sure that affli top locks cant increase their parses. But nvm. Lets just see those fights:

    Blade Lord - 90k dps at 10 place vs 111k dps for 10 place affli
    Garalon - 158k DPS at 1 place vs 186k DPS for 1 place affli
    Grand Empress - 148k dps at 3 place vs 148k DPS for 3 place affli
    Protectors & Lei shi ill skip, you have there 1 and 4 place for 10 players ranked overal, also differences with affliction is about 30-40k dps so no point.
    Feng - 4 place with 131k DPS vs 149k dps 4 place affli
    Will of the Emperor - 4 place with 94k dps vs 150k dps for affli 4 place.


    Really dont see differences ? 20-50k dps on each fight ? Demo can only be good rival for affli in AoE fights - spec that is "AoE spec" as i heared can only be good rival, we also cant outdps affli there. Or mayby you can inprove your DPS by 20-50k each fight ? And ofc you are 100% sure that top affli locks already maded their best shoots.

  5. #45
    Ok but what if all the current Affliction warlocks went Demonology, and all the current Demonology warlocks went Affliction... And they all played their new spec as good as their old one?

    How would that change the logs?
    Probably to the favor of Demonology.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemie View Post
    Ok but what if all the current Affliction warlocks went Demonology, and all the current Demonology warlocks went Affliction... And they all played their new spec as good as their old one?

    How would that change the logs?
    Probably to the favor of Demonology.
    Are you talking 5.2 where the scaling isn't polished (if even finished) or are you talking currently? Currently Affliction will come out on top on most (if not all) encounters.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    Really dont see differences ? 20-50k dps on each fight ? Demo can only be good rival for affli in AoE fights - spec that is "AoE spec" as i heared can only be good rival, we also cant outdps affli there. Or mayby you can inprove your DPS by 20-50k each fight ? And ofc you are 100% sure that top affli locks already maded their best shoots.
    The point that I was trying to make was the following:

    If I can hold those ranks then it means that the best numbers for demonology have not been found - I'm neither the most geared or skilled player. I would wager that if I was playing affliction (with the same gear and skill) I would get nowhere near the rankings - granted I would expect to grab a few decent ones but nowhere near top 10 on such a consistent basis.

    Case in point on Garalon - obviously I was abusing the leg +damage buff but you can clearly see the point at which I stopped focusing on cheesing by having to take the debuff and kite. I'll wager that the top affliction ranks stick on the legs the whole time...

    Granted there are some fights where affliction will obviously be better and that is always going to be the case. My point is that the top ranks of demo are nowhere near as representative as the affliction ones due to the number of people playing it.

  8. #48
    There's alot more to ranking than just pure through-put.

    You need to consider things such as Tricks of the Trade, mobility or targetswapping based on a given raid's boss tactic, luck and blood lust timings as well as boss-kill speed. Oh and cheesing ofc, dpsing stuff that doesn't matter such as already broken pinning arrows on Spirit Kings (Blink / Unbound Will etc, breaks the effect but doesn't remove the mob)
    If you compare top 200 with top 200, there's still too few units in your comparison to make a statistically valid analysis, given the size of the anomalies (top#1 on Demo Feng 25 HC for instance is 38k dps ahead of top#2).
    It's like measuring the average height of your school and there's this student who had a bungee jump accident and is now 3 meters tall, he alone will skew the results crazily. Unless he's discarded and removed from the calculations. In other words to compare specs correctly you'd need to ignore the top 10 parses, perhaps the top 50.
    There's not just one insanely tall guy on World of Logs, there's hundreds.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Whabam View Post
    .
    Case in point on Garalon - obviously I was abusing the leg +damage buff but you can clearly see the point at which I stopped focusing on cheesing by having to take the debuff and kite. I'll wager that the top affliction ranks stick on the legs the whole time...
    Actually ... You did 72,6% on garalon legs, top1 affli lock did "only" 39,2%. Your dmg on garalon legs was 21% overall, for affli lock it was 18%. So as you can see here we can see that its not like affli top is pure best of the best and only demo can improve. TBH i see much more way to improve affli DPS in that case than yours. BTW same player - Makal - who has 1 place affli in that fight also made 4 place as a demo, he did 18k less DPS than you but had only 41% on legs.


    Granted there are some fights where affliction will obviously be better and that is always going to be the case. My point is that the top ranks of demo are nowhere near as representative as the affliction ones due to the number of people playing it

    If top ranked demo players are same time in top ranked guilds in the world, not only this content but also previous ones that means we can clearly take their results and compare them to top affli locks. Yes ofc you can call them bad players, you can say that they dont know their classes well, you may tell that their guilds are weak etc. same things what Filth the Warlock wrotes. But ill like to tell you that not you but THEY are progressing 12 + hours a day, that THEY are spending XXXX hours on PTR to practice. That THEY are doing XXX hours preparation for progress. Not you, not me, not Filth the Warlock.

    You need to consider things such as Tricks of the Trade, mobility or targetswapping based on a given raid's boss tactic, luck and blood lust timings as well as boss-kill speed. Oh and cheesing ofc, dpsing stuff that doesn't matter such as already broken pinning arrows on Spirit Kings (Blink / Unbound Will etc, breaks the effect but doesn't remove the mob)
    Im doing it - and you ? I see its still not clear for you - we are not talking about some abstract situation, about hypothetical results. We are talking about BEST results that certain spec can make. Not about AVERAGE (thats why your exaple AGAIN is idiotic) - mayby ill point this once again - ITS NOT ABOUT GETTING AVERAGE RESULTS - you get it ? Or should i point it again ? You already wroted why its impossible. Theres not enough saples from demo/destro to make those results viable. But that doesnt mean we just cant compare those 3 spec. If theres some condition maded - we can compare best results from those spec. For demo conditions are almost perfect. Top guilds from the world. Top players, Players that are playing those class/spec before MoP, BiS geared players. We dont even need to make any "filters" like ignoring "empty" DPS, ignoring "buff and burst fights", ignoring "AoE fights" or just overal "ignoring all things that makes some spec in better position at start" - why ? Becouse differences between affli and demo are so high that it doesnt really matter. We are not talking about 5%, not even about 10% - its mostly 20%+ difference between best results.


    Yes i know i know, everythings fine, just those players are nubs and dont know how to play. Very Very Very comfortable statement. Question is - why theres about 80% locks playing affliction if everything is ok with other 2 specs.

  10. #50
    those discussions always amuse me
    what is the best spec in that expansion?
    some computer gives you a result and 80% roll that spec and think they rock the shit out of the expansion.
    most of them do not even know how to play the "best" spec perfect and still pick it.

    This theoriecrafting stuff is only useful for top players racing for first hc´s.
    everyone else should stick to what he performs best and thats most likely the spec they have most fun with.
    i for myself do at least 10k dps more with destro than with affli, so i play destro.
    what does competitive mean? doing theoretically 5% less damage is not competitive?

    BTW World of Logs ranks should not be taken 100% serious. i am pretty shure there are not many top ranked players for, lets say garalon who where arranged to kite, to do only damage on the body, to BR someone etc.
    there is a difference in playing for the raid and playing for the ranks.

    but who knows into whoms favor the more critrating in 5.2 will increase the theoretical damage of the specs.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    If theres some condition maded - we can compare best results from those spec. For demo conditions are almost perfect. Top guilds from the world. Top players, Players that are playing those class/spec before MoP, BiS geared players.
    Sounds like I should put in an application to Method.

    There aren't anywhere near as many people playing demo - its almost 10 times as many playing affliciton. There is no way that we have as many top level samples of Demo ranks. Its not an accurate representation. I'm done.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Whabam View Post
    There aren't anywhere near as many people playing demo - its almost 10 times as many playing affliciton. There is no way that we have as many top level samples of Demo ranks. Its not an accurate representation. I'm done.
    Cata period, a lot of warlock were into the Demo spec, less than affliction but very close. Destro was the most played by a large marge. Demo and destro weren't so brainless in cata, but now...

    How can this revamp be a success when most of people are playing this 3.1 GC fucking spec, which has not changed since... ( soulswap only) ?

    This revamp is a sucksess.
    GC : We try very hard not to monkey around with things just for the sake of changing, but it's easy to play the "I didn't see feedback on X, therefore there wasn't feedback on X" card.

    The ultimate feminist move, liberating all the women from the penis, will be EXCISION.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Paraclef View Post
    Cata period, a lot of warlock were into the Demo spec, less than affliction but very close. Destro was the most played by a large marge. Demo and destro weren't so brainless in cata, but now...

    How can this revamp be a success when most of people are playing this 3.1 GC fucking spec, which has not changed since... ( soulswap only) ?

    This revamp is a sucksess.
    I'm not sure what you mean.
    Demonology was the most played (or atleast the best spec, which usually = most played) in Firelands days, by a margin. Destro was the most played spec until Firelands came, but after that it became a blur.
    MOP changed all 3 specs massively, which is why "Top players, Players that are playing those class/spec before MoP, BiS geared players." is irrelevant, to put it nicely.

  14. #54
    Back on topic

    Demonology will continue to be very competitive early on in the 5.2 raid for various reasons; same reason it was throughout all of 5.0. When progression hits any fight with adds make the spec insanely good because adds don't die that fast for the first few kills of the encounter and early stages of gearing throughout the tier. But once the fight is on farm and everyone has better gear you won't be able to maintain high numbers from adds since they die too fast.

    About half of the fights for the 5.0 raids were great for Demo early on as everyone saw from the rankings and kill videos of top guilds. But eventually Affliction will shine brighter and everyone will go back to that spec towards the middle to end of the tier. Destruction will remain to be the "subpar" spec unless some further changes are made to it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 08:42 PM ----------

    I really hope other specs will be on equal grounds next tier as I would love to play different ones and not be pigeon-holed into playing affliction for 95% of the fights

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    THATS why you are not watching all top 200-300 but only few players - best of the best. Those players that can get EVERYTHING thats needed for doing top DPS and we cant call RNG (btw putting raid dps/raid buffs as and RNG ??? are you serious ?). Also we cant just write that their best shoots was all the time with bad RNG, same as we cant say it was best possible. Just that when you are watching on top reports only, wheres everything is exactly same, and you can see 10-20% differences - no its not RNG. Its way to big differences just for only RNG.
    First of all: I understand what you are writing even if you don't use caps all the time.
    For another: Raid dps is some kind of rng as it depends on the dps of each player in your raid which also depends on rng. A fire mage in your raid with no proccs does significantly less dps than with proccs. Bad luck with debuffs, boss mechanics or something can effect your raid dps.

    Raid buffs and raid cds can also be some kind of rng. If bloodlust alignes with your proccs, you can squeeze out more dps than if they wouldn't.

    And maybe our example with "you only take the 200-300 players"-example only shows that you have no knowledge about statistics. It's simply not as easy as this.

  16. #56
    -PPM trinkets
    -Not so great set bonuses
    -30% haste epic metagem

    Doesnt look good for Demo tbh
    Warlock / IA Operative / Wizard / Engineer

  17. #57
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  18. #58
    Time to dust off your pets Zumzum!

  19. #59

  20. #60
    And on top of that, zero discussion about the tier set bonus.
    GC : We try very hard not to monkey around with things just for the sake of changing, but it's easy to play the "I didn't see feedback on X, therefore there wasn't feedback on X" card.

    The ultimate feminist move, liberating all the women from the penis, will be EXCISION.

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