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  1. #81
    Mechagnome
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    The Legendary gem will actually be pretty good for Destruction: faster ember generation+mana regen scaling with haste=more chaos bolts and shadowburns.

    Demo needs a mana regen mechanic for meta form to avoid the probable oom issue.
    A living Warlock = a dead everyone else

  2. #82
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    Funny how affliction is 'too strong', but mage pve dps is 'just fine'.

    /devil's advocate
    -- We'll Dance As The Palaces Burn --

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    Funny how affliction is 'too strong', but mage pve dps is 'just fine'.

    /devil's advocate
    To be fair, didn't arcane just get the shit nerfed out of it?

    I know it got buffed first due to mechanic changes, but the most recent PTR iteration has to be a nerf from live.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by nipil View Post
    Nope, it replaces meta (see Zumzum's post above for the tweet source)
    really ? damm now i must do some math what will be better :/ hope i could avoid this

    Quote Originally Posted by SaltLakeAtrocity View Post
    Funny how affliction is 'too strong', but mage pve dps is 'just fine'.

    /devil's advocate
    who said that o.O

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post

    who said that o.O
    Noone in this thread, so I'd like the topic to not continue. There's enough animosity about Destro & Demo vs Affliction without dragging Mages into the conversation as well. I get that Affli currently is on par with Arcane at the top, and that the point being made is that we'll still be behind mages if things for Mages stay the same but our best spec gets nerfed, but 1) Arcane got a rewrite so we're not sure how things stand there 2) we're yet to get that crucial balance pass for 5.2 which could change for EVERYONE, including Destro & Demo buffs.

    So to drag Mages into this is a possible discussion angle, but I don't want this thread about Destro and Demo to turn into a Mages vs Warlocks discussion, so untill we know more exact numbers for 5.2 I think it's more productive to talk about what is possible for Warlocks in 5.2 given the info we now have, and what could possibly be changed to improve on what we have currently.

  6. #86
    Destruction and Demology have just recieved some buffs on the PTR:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Warlock
    - Hand of Gul'dan, Shadowflame, Shadow Bolt, Touch of Chaos and Wild Imp Firebolt +15%.
    - Soul Fire damage +22%.
    - Conflagrate and Immolate damage +20%.
    - Incinerate damage +10%.

    To be honest, it might be more than was necessary... but then again lots of other classes have also recieved buffs too.

  7. #87
    AHHHHH YEA i like dis all of dis
    Credit to PaulDok for sig!

  8. #88
    High Overlord Melian's Avatar
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    Kandalanu, you should attend some statistics lectures and you would recognize that your whole argumentation will fall like a card house.

    You simply can not compare the top 5 ppl out of 100.000 against the top 5 out of 1.000.
    If you do you get the folliwing problem:
    Set all players got the same skill and same gear, then top 5 out of 1000 will very (very) surely not include a try where everything went completely perfect for them. Simply because the chances that all their proccs alligned to hero, they didn't have to move a lot etc is 100 times lower than this chance is for the 100.000 playing the other specc.
    So you can be quite sure, that there is no such "perfect" try among the top 5, that is as perfect as the ones in the larger group.

    And this is just one side of the facts that you handled wrong. There is another and probably more important:

    Fact is, that affliction is the better specc theoreticaly.
    Following this almost all players are playing affliction. Not only the average - the best of the best of the best (hello top gun ) are also playing affli. And not only the best players but also the best "specc theoretics" - and these are by far not always the same then the best players!
    According to this, there are many players gaining experiance in affliction, finding tweaks for affliction, writing guides, discussing with fellow warlocks about things they found out, scanning wol parses for tweaks, simcrafting 100 different rotations and much more.
    Due to this there are many tweaks discovered and they get common knowledge almost instantly.
    So our affliction knowledge as a community is very deep. And thus the best players have almost infinite informations and therefore opportunities to play their warlock well.
    If you compare this on the other hand to destruction/ or demo, there is much less inout for this specc. The best of the best (...) players may of course be equaly skilled like the best affliction players. But they are so few, that chances are much lower that they discover every possible tweak that the encounter has for their specc. And they can not discover everything by themselves. There always are other people looking for things you would never think of - and they may find an option that you havent seen.
    This leads to a situation, where the top 5 destro wls dont even have the opportunity to play as advanced as the top 5 affliction wls can.
    That does not make them worse - it just is a fact.

    That is btw the thing ghostcrawler meant when he said bm hunters just have to learn to play at the end of cata. Problem was, there was not even a perfect priority list in Simcraft, that counted in every little tweak. This lead to a situation where the simcraft results where much worse than they had to be, if they would be thought through more intense. Of course the problem with destru and demo is much smaller, but it exists.

    Greets
    Melian
    Aka Krallnor Eredar Eu

    PS.: i hope i wrote understandable. I'm german, its 3o'clock in the morning and i'm posting with my phone
    Krallnor <Lords of Heaven> - Eredar EU formerly known as Melian <Lords of Heaven> - Eredar EU
    from DE #1 guild "Ad Luna" in Cataclysm 10men progress. Now playing a Warlock in semi-hardcore guild "Lords of Heaven".
    Our Garrosh 10men Heroic Firstkill(skipped intermission 2 + played with 1 healer)

  9. #89
    The Lightbringer Seezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    Destruction and Demology have just recieved some buffs on the PTR:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Warlock
    - Hand of Gul'dan, Shadowflame, Shadow Bolt, Touch of Chaos and Wild Imp Firebolt +15%.
    - Soul Fire damage +22%.
    - Conflagrate and Immolate damage +20%.
    - Incinerate damage +10%.

    To be honest, it might be more than was necessary... but then again lots of other classes have also recieved buffs too.
    I guess they want everyone honking green fire. Those are huge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    You tried too hard and now your post is shit. Never try too hard, the gamble isn't worth it.

  10. #90
    They're decently sized buffs, but the specs need that boost to be on the same level as affliction single target.

  11. #91
    nice buffs looking forward to playing demonology competitively in 5.2, affliction really got boring quite a bit. need to mix it up a little!

  12. #92
    Warlocks are gonna crush everything in Throne of Thunder. Just imagine the possibilities of having a viable spec with different perks on each encounter. Sick stuff.

  13. #93
    its going to be so nice to be able to switch back and forth between the specs you like to play without having a too big drop in dps like on live.

  14. #94
    Will these buffs for Destro change the stat priority in any way (maybe more haste to pump out more incinerates?)? How about the Sacrifice nerf? Will Destro still sacrifice or will we want to have a pet now, if so I guess this makes haste much more important again?

  15. #95
    I am still convinced Destro will catch up more due to secondary stat inflation - Chaos Bolt triple dipping from int, crit and mastery, more Chaos Bolts being cast with additional haste and crit (see T13h simcraft for anecdotal evidence as to where the specs sit with larger, end tier pools of secondary stats). I guess that scaling is hurt by the GoSac nerf though.
    I think i can give up choose talent in this level?
    because if i am not choose this level。 i can have 20% blood more than choosen..
    GREAT BLZ.
    warlock now became a guy use 5 level talents VS other 6 level.

  16. #96
    I'm very sure that Affliction has better gear scaling than Destruction with the value of secondary stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekromonde View Post
    Will these buffs for Destro change the stat priority in any way (maybe more haste to pump out more incinerates?)? How about the Sacrifice nerf? Will Destro still sacrifice or will we want to have a pet now, if so I guess this makes haste much more important again?
    Ask Brusalk to have it checked with the first 5.2 build for SimCraft. I think he's done some Destro APL's before so his numbers should be better than the pet comparisons SimCraft devs are already doing for Warlocks.
    Last edited by Bonkura; 2013-02-20 at 11:46 AM.

  17. #97
    Destruction has much worse secondary stat scaling than Affliction. The entire concept of double or triple dipping is completely overblown and frankly overshadowed by the Affliction having better individual stat scaling. A simple example is if we consider Haste 1:1 and Crit 1:1 (and ignore that Haste is ~425 rating to 1% and Crit is 600 rating) - 10% Haste gives 10% more damage and 10% Crit gives 10% more damage. Getting 20% Haste gives you 20% more damage. Getting 10% Haste and 10% Crit with 'double dipping' gives you 21% more damage, for a 5% 'gain' from the double dipping. Even with the concept of triple dipping you get a 10.3% 'gain'. Instead you should just consider that Destruction's secondary stats are worth 2.13 on average out of the SimC T14H BiS profile, and Affliction's are worth 2.43 DPS - or 14% more.

    Comparing T14H to T14N profiles actually has Destruction gaining the least out of the 3 specs.

    Obviously with these changes we'll have to see if this all still holds true; I am just commenting generally.
    http://darkcontent.wordpress.com/ - blog (updated Oct. 8, 2013). Latest post: T16H Affliction Trinket Rankings in Combination, done in SimC 540-4.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    Destruction has much worse secondary stat scaling than Affliction. The entire concept of double or triple dipping is completely overblown and frankly overshadowed by the Affliction having better individual stat scaling. A simple example is if we consider Haste 1:1 and Crit 1:1 (and ignore that Haste is ~425 rating to 1% and Crit is 600 rating) - 10% Haste gives 10% more damage and 10% Crit gives 10% more damage. Getting 20% Haste gives you 20% more damage. Getting 10% Haste and 10% Crit with 'double dipping' gives you 21% more damage, for a 5% 'gain' from the double dipping. Even with the concept of triple dipping you get a 10.3% 'gain'. Instead you should just consider that Destruction's secondary stats are worth 2.13 on average out of the SimC T14H BiS profile, and Affliction's are worth 2.43 DPS - or 14% more.

    Comparing T14H to T14N profiles actually has Destruction gaining the least out of the 3 specs.

    Obviously with these changes we'll have to see if this all still holds true; I am just commenting generally.
    Ooo, great post. You teached a noob some sweet numbers, thanks!

  19. #99
    @Melian - dunny why i must wrote same things again and again.

    So ill ask you few questions:

    - why you are 100% sure that demo locks always have bad luck with RNG and affli locks always have great luck and best tryies ?
    - why you are 100% sure that all demo players are just totally retards and nubs and just cant play this class ?
    - why you are 100% sure that all affli players are best players in the world ?
    - why you are 100% sure that each affli player would be also best of the best in each other class ?
    - why you are 100% sure that best affli players would made MUCH MUCH more DPS in demo than players that actually played it already - at least 15% more DPS ?


    Cos those are blizzards and ofc yours statement for the moment. I just would like to know what facts makes you think like that ? It cant be - "just becouse" - there MUST be something. So far i didnt saw any. So far the only one proof i saw - that some ppl (and Blizzard) - is just that demo players are doing much much less DPS than affli. But ... but it works ONLY when you accept the assumption that Affli and Demo DPS are equall. But now ... you must have any proof that its equall. So ? So this whole statement is just illogical.


    BTW - if we will take this silly statement as a true - why the hell blizzard is buffing Demo ? Look. Demo and affli are equall now, when Demo will be buffed and affli will be nerfet a bit (atm at least) - we will have another OP spec ? Or blizzard thinks that those great pro players will stick to affliction ? But ... But affliction great pro players are so great that they should analyze it, do some theorycrafting and they should see that demo > affli. So in that case they will start playing Demo. So now Demo results wont be only = situation we have now + buffs, but = situation we have now + 15% + buffs. That will be even more OP than mages !!!

    So ... somethings wrong here. You and blizzard must change some of your assumptions. And when you will do it - tell me and we could start talking about situation we have now.


    Or different way, just answer 1 question:

    What makes you think that mastered Demo specc (we didnt saw yet) is equall (in equall i mean even 5% less dps than affli) that mastered Affli spec (we dont know if we saw it yet) ?
    Last edited by kandalanu; 2013-02-20 at 04:53 PM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekromonde View Post
    Will these buffs for Destro change the stat priority in any way (maybe more haste to pump out more incinerates?)? How about the Sacrifice nerf? Will Destro still sacrifice or will we want to have a pet now, if so I guess this makes haste much more important again?
    Im thinking that with the Sacrifice nerf and the 30% haste meta gem, a pet might be a very viable option as they cast and hit faster with haste, and as of now on live, pets aren't that super far behind with Supremacy.

    Whenever you are doing alot of Havocs and maybe some FnB, Sacrifice will probably always be better though.
    But on single target in 5.2... Hmm, who knows!

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