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  1. #21
    I'm pulling similar numbers as Destro compared to Affli in LFR on PTR. Usually topping meters with both specs. Sure, it's LFR, but everyone's gear is scaled to 480 ilvl and the PTR players should be better than the usual LFR players on live.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Scathbais View Post
    I do not think it is mathematically correct to take the percent on a percent. Both had Sac nerfed by 5%.
    Saying "both sac nerfed by 5%" is the wrong way to say it. For the mathematically challenged, destro got hit around twice as much by the GoSac nerf. Read the following carefully:

    Around half of the afflction's single target damage is affected by GoSac, hence the the big value of Gosac for affliction: 50%. Dots are not affected by GoSac, which means that the GoSac nerf doesn't change our 3 dots' damage at all. In other words, only half of the affliction single target got hit by that 5%. So, in this example, affli overall got hit by 2-3%. If GoSac for affliction was nerfed from 50% to 40%, then the situation would have been equal.
    In comparison, all of Destruction's single target damage spells are affected by GoSac, so all spells were affected by this 5%.

    This change was made to make pets more attractive. It is possible that the pets were less attractive to Destro than Affli, in which case the change makes sense. Now I'm curious what the balance patch notes will look like, but I can already feel the disappointment.
    Last edited by darlissa; 2013-02-12 at 01:41 PM.

  3. #23
    Wasn't GoSup with Haste->Crit already better on single target for Destro?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Wasn't GoSup with Haste->Crit already better on single target for Destro?

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that's ONLY pure single target... which there aren't really any fights of this tier (not sure about 5.2)

    Pretty sure as soon as you're able to cleave anything at all, haste and gosup become near useless (for havoc anyway) and mastery and gosac becomes much much higher value... I haven't watched every boss fight yet in the new raid but every fight I have watched has had adds or at least some sort of cleaving.

    OT- If destro's single target dps would be competitive with the other specs next tier it would be amazing I prefer it much more over affliction's playstyle atm... they did nerf fnb so hopefully they buff its single target a bit to compensate
    Last edited by Sabsy; 2013-02-12 at 01:53 PM.

  5. #25
    True, but then it's hard to argue that Destro got hit harder by the GoSac nerf since they should actually get closer to Affliction now on a single target fight.

    I doubt they'll buff single target as a reason of nerfing FnB. They did the exact same change to Seed of Corruption.

  6. #26
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    In 5.0/5.1 GoSac is better than GoSup As Destro, even on single target fights (if you are decent at playing Destro), hence the nerf to GoSac in 5.2.
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  7. #27
    Ahh, I thought the reason was Havoc cleaving being too strong. That makes sense nerfing GoSac if Destro players didn't even switch to GoSup for single target fights.

  8. #28
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    Well it is even stronger with Havoc that's true
    But is the cleave too strong ? Compared to Aff's, I don't think so.
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  9. #29
    I don't think so either. Destro seems to shine on fights with a lot of adds like Garajal and Tsulong (where Shadowburn overkill is high too). With that in mind I honestly dont disapprove of the nerfs to FnB and SoC, but I do wonder why Immolation Aura/Hellfire and RoF with MF didn't get touched.

    I'm looking forward to see which spec will have the best results on Horridon. I've tried it in LFR but I get terrible fps drops in 25-man so my dps is shit with all specs.

  10. #30
    Why don't they just buff my Immolate a bit? :-(

  11. #31
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    dunno I play destro now and i'm competetive in dps, there is only a few fights where affliction will pull out ahead by 1-2% in damage done, most of the time i'm 0.1 - 0.2% behind/ahead in damage. TBH the spec is a good as the player that plays it. I play Destro and i've ranked on fights where our affliction locks in more-or-less same gear don't. The point is to know what talents go well with the fight in question (sac is not always better and neither is supremacy) as well as lvl 90 talents. I usually do at least 1 talent tweak between bosses.

    My advise is that if you play to your strengths vs simcraft numbers you will do better.
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  12. #32
    Yes well the reason you can rank as Destruction while your Affliction lock wont rank is maybe and probably because there are 600,000,000 Affliction Warlocks and 2000 Destruction Warlocks. Then again, I don't know you and you might also rock your lock!

    I do however agree, Destruction is fine, maybe needs a slight bump on single target.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemie View Post
    Why don't they just buff my Immolate a bit? :-(
    Yeah it hits like a wet noodle

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by darlissa View Post
    Saying "both sac nerfed by 5%" is the wrong way to say it. For the mathematically challenged, destro got hit around twice as much by the GoSac nerf. Read the following carefully:

    Around half of the afflction's single target damage is affected by GoSac, hence the the big value of Gosac for affliction: 50%. Dots are not affected by GoSac, which means that the GoSac nerf doesn't change our 3 dots' damage at all. In other words, only half of the affliction single target got hit by that 5%. So, in this example, affli overall got hit by 2-3%. If GoSac for affliction was nerfed from 50% to 40%, then the situation would have been equal.
    In comparison, all of Destruction's single target damage spells are affected by GoSac, so all spells were affected by this 5%.

    This change was made to make pets more attractive. It is possible that the pets were less attractive to Destro than Affli, in which case the change makes sense. Now I'm curious what the balance patch notes will look like, but I can already feel the disappointment.
    well, technically, GoSac does affect afflic's dots through the added bonus to MG, as its bonus dot dmg goes from 50% to 75% afaik, so it does affect dots as well, altho indirectly. also you're correct that nerfing afflic's GoSac to 40% with the change to destro's version of Sac would give the same amount of nerf, but you fail to realize that the dmg nerfs isnt really what blizz' intentions are in this case, what blizz actually wants, is to make the grimoires a choice and not mandatory, atm GoSac is mandatory for afflic and destro bcoz they give the biggest boost to their dmg and nothing else comes close, so they nerf GoSac to make the difference between the grimoires more equal, so right now for afflic with the changes to GoSac, it will be very very close to GoSup and that is blizz' intentions with this change, the problem i can see coming, is that it will be hard to balance the specs bcoz if they buff destro's single target spells then it will just make GOSac return to being the mandatory talent to pick, so the only way to undo that, is to remove one or more spells from the list of spells affected by GoSac for destro and buff them accordingly, like for example removing incinerate from GoSac and buff it by say 40-50% and then nerf FnB by the same amount for incinerate but i doubt that will happen when you consider pvp balance.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemie View Post
    Yes well the reason you can rank as Destruction while your Affliction lock wont rank is maybe and probably because there are 600,000,000 Affliction Warlocks and 2000 Destruction Warlocks. Then again, I don't know you and you might also rock your lock!

    I do however agree, Destruction is fine, maybe needs a slight bump on single target.

    thats why you should only look at top 5-10 each spec.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by gnlogic View Post
    dunno I play destro now and i'm competetive in dps, there is only a few fights where affliction will pull out ahead by 1-2% in damage done, most of the time i'm 0.1 - 0.2% behind/ahead in damage. TBH the spec is a good as the player that plays it. I play Destro and i've ranked on fights where our affliction locks in more-or-less same gear don't. The point is to know what talents go well with the fight in question (sac is not always better and neither is supremacy) as well as lvl 90 talents. I usually do at least 1 talent tweak between bosses.

    My advise is that if you play to your strengths vs simcraft numbers you will do better.
    If you're the only destruction warlock in the world to do a fight, does that make you the best destruction warlock in the world?
    I know you weren't the only one, but I remember going through the logs at Vizier Zorlok hc 10 man, and if memory serves me right I'd get #2 with only 90k dps, vs #2 as affliction with 145k. Use Sha of Fear HC as another example, but look at other classes. There was a frost mage with 20k dps, he was rank 1. Pro stuff.

    If you're good at destro but bad at affliction, then destro will provide you with better results.

    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    thats why you should only look at top 5-10 each spec.
    Why? The top 5-10 destro is only top of 2000, while the top 5-10 affliction is top of millions. It's like taking kindergarden football and comparing it to the world cup or whatever.

    Imo FnB is poorly designed and the single target rotation is clunky. I do enjoy spewing fire and I played destruction for most of Cataclysm, but with the introduction of Malefic Grasp vs Burning Embers the choice was easy. Affliction is alot more fun imo and while I'd hate to see it go and get nerfed past destruction, I wouldn't really mind playing destro. Demo on the other hand :S ew.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Filth the Warlock View Post

    Why? The top 5-10 destro is only top of 2000, while the top 5-10 affliction is top of millions. It's like taking kindergarden football and comparing it to the world cup or whatever.

    You've maded so many logical mistakes here that i dont even know where to start.

    First of all you are trying to tell us that we cant take only top results becouse much more players are playing affli than destro. But second sentence is about overal capabilities.

    First sentence is exactly same as blizzard is writing to players, second exactly same as players writing to blizzard = first sentence is trying to tell us that we cant just compare affli and demo/destro results becouse much more players are playing affli than rest, second sentence is trying to tell us that destro is much much worse spec than affli.


    So now why top 5-10 only, and why it doesnt matter how many ppl are playing other spec and why it doesnt make a differences ? Top 5-10 is something we could called Simaltioncraft results in practice not theory. Those ppl in each spec are just ppl that are playing certain spec over and over again in each patch/expansions, they know everything about this spec, they mastered it. They also have already BiS gear, most of them are in top guilds so they already have all encounteres on strict farm status so they can easilly play for ranks only, also we can see that most of them are topping their guild meteres (that counts for rank aswell) = all top ranked players have exactly same conditions - doesnt matter what spec they are playing. Thats why, once again, we can call this Simulationcraft results in practice not theory. Those reports show us what capabilities have each spec when played by "true master". And its really doesnt matter if theres 10k players playing affliction and only 1000 demonology and 1000 destruction since all conditions that are needed to do top DPS are exactly same for certain players.

    That makes differences for place 10-200. Top is top, but if theres 10k players playing affliction we can see that the differences in top are mostly 100-200 DPS, and if theres 1000 players playing demo/destro - differences are 1k-2k between players. Thats why for only top player ranking thres no difference how many ppl are playing what spec. Tbh there could be only 3-4 players playing demo: Varia, Shinafae, Eack, those are demo locks from strict top guilds, top 2,3, 7. They have everything that is needed to rank and to make perfect DPS. Ofc we cant say that they are doing all the time best results and theres nobody who could beat them - but they are in strict top and theres no possibility to made 10-20% more DPS just to be equall with top affli players.


    Just you dont see this - but that doesnt matter, whats really matters is that Blizzard dont see this. They dont see that affli is way way better than demo and destro atm, they dont see that theres like 10 times more affli players than demo and destro (at least if we are looking at reports). They mayby know that, but they dont see it. They are only making lot of stupid statements like "we are not forcing you to do bla bla bla etc.", "demo and destro are fine just players dont know how to play those spec", "demo and destro are fine, you just cant watch dmg meteres cos they are wrong". FFS again like it was with Simulationcraft, we are playing game where designers theory caltulation are most important in the world and if practice shows something different, thats bad for practice ? Or we should start looking at the game how it really looks like ?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by kandalanu View Post
    You've maded so many logical mistakes here that i dont even know where to start.

    First of all you are trying to tell us that we cant take only top results becouse much more players are playing affli than destro. But second sentence is about overal capabilities.

    First sentence is exactly same as blizzard is writing to players, second exactly same as players writing to blizzard = first sentence is trying to tell us that we cant just compare affli and demo/destro results becouse much more players are playing affli than rest, second sentence is trying to tell us that destro is much much worse spec than affli.


    So now why top 5-10 only, and why it doesnt matter how many ppl are playing other spec and why it doesnt make a differences ? Top 5-10 is something we could called Simaltioncraft results in practice not theory. Those ppl in each spec are just ppl that are playing certain spec over and over again in each patch/expansions, they know everything about this spec, they mastered it. They also have already BiS gear, most of them are in top guilds so they already have all encounteres on strict farm status so they can easilly play for ranks only, also we can see that most of them are topping their guild meteres (that counts for rank aswell) = all top ranked players have exactly same conditions - doesnt matter what spec they are playing. Thats why, once again, we can call this Simulationcraft results in practice not theory. Those reports show us what capabilities have each spec when played by "true master". And its really doesnt matter if theres 10k players playing affliction and only 1000 demonology and 1000 destruction since all conditions that are needed to do top DPS are exactly same for certain players.

    That makes differences for place 10-200. Top is top, but if theres 10k players playing affliction we can see that the differences in top are mostly 100-200 DPS, and if theres 1000 players playing demo/destro - differences are 1k-2k between players. Thats why for only top player ranking thres no difference how many ppl are playing what spec. Tbh there could be only 3-4 players playing demo: Varia, Shinafae, Eack, those are demo locks from strict top guilds, top 2,3, 7. They have everything that is needed to rank and to make perfect DPS. Ofc we cant say that they are doing all the time best results and theres nobody who could beat them - but they are in strict top and theres no possibility to made 10-20% more DPS just to be equall with top affli players.


    Just you dont see this - but that doesnt matter, whats really matters is that Blizzard dont see this. They dont see that affli is way way better than demo and destro atm, they dont see that theres like 10 times more affli players than demo and destro (at least if we are looking at reports). They mayby know that, but they dont see it. They are only making lot of stupid statements like "we are not forcing you to do bla bla bla etc.", "demo and destro are fine just players dont know how to play those spec", "demo and destro are fine, you just cant watch dmg meteres cos they are wrong". FFS again like it was with Simulationcraft, we are playing game where designers theory caltulation are most important in the world and if practice shows something different, thats bad for practice ? Or we should start looking at the game how it really looks like ?

    No.
    What I'm trying to tell you is that because destruction performs worse, less players play it. Because there's less players playing it, there's less skillful players playing it. Because of that there's less competition. Because of the lack of competition the spec isn't explored. Because the spec isn't explored it's likely not played to its full capabilities and the top 5-10 is irrelevant because there's only 5-10 players ranked in the first place. Being the best at math in your class at school doesn't mean you're the greatest mathematician in the world. Boring fact of life.
    And they DO see that affliction is wayyyy better than everything else (except Arcane mages) and they are working on it. Read patch notes fml.

  19. #39
    STOP using examples from real life if you dont know how to do this. It just look silly.

    Your acting now just like blizzard. Players from first and second guilds in the world dont have competition ??? , they didnt explored their spec ??? - writing such a bullshit just for what ? Just to make your statement looks nice ?

    Yes i can read patch notes - HEY isnt that in EACH patch notes they are writing that they will change something and its never work ? your playing wow since when ? 2 weeks ? Also - you should read those patch notes more carefully. On the other hand they are writing that they can see that affli is a bit higher than rest BUT on the other hand they are writining same bullshit like you did now - that its not only their foult but its becouse ppl that are playing destro/demo are just "bad players who dont know their class and that they are 100% sure that if any random affli player would start playing destro/demo he would make 50% better DPS than others".

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 09:34 AM ----------

    Also one more thing, we already know that in your opinion Method and Blood Legion was compared to "kindergarden football" or random class at random school. So please tell us now who should we looking at ?

  20. #40
    We still have to wait for them to do some of the changes they announced, with the patch coming in 2 weeks i doubt we'll have time to test and maybe ask devs to reiterate anything.
    Been playing destro in the past weeks, and i like it, is quite challenging to aoe or cleave with it, when i single target i fall asleep thou.
    As a personal preference i hope GoSac will remain top, since pets always had problems with pathing or dying to boss mechanics.

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