5.2 - will Demo and Destro be competitive in PVE?

[Harsesis]

With that in mind I honestly dont disapprove of the nerfs to FnB and SoC, but I do wonder why Immolation Aura/Hellfire and RoF with MF didn't get touched.

This is a pretty simple answer. The range of a typical aoe spell is 10 yds from a center point. FnB and SoC were hitting with a range of 15 yds from a center point. Thus they could hit more things that were more loosely pack than all other aoes. By reducing the size to that of other aoes they fix that problem. MF affects all our aoe spells not just the ones you mentioned.

[kandalanu]

This theoriecrafting stuff is only useful for top players racing for first hc´s.
everyone else should stick to what he performs best and thats most likely the spec they have most fun with.
i for myself do at least 10k dps more with destro than with affli, so i play destro.
what does competitive mean? doing theoretically 5% less damage is not competitive?

first of all - this discussion is clearly not theoriecrafting since we are talking about results that specific players already maded, not what some silly programe with lots of bugs shows.

secondly - it was already spoken about doing 5-10% less dmg - no if it would be only 5-10% less dmg everything would be ok. But there are 20% + differences and its not ok.

So next time read something before you will comment it.

BTW World of Logs ranks should not be taken 100% serious. i am pretty shure there are not many top ranked players for, lets say garalon who where arranged to kite, to do only damage on the body, to BR someone etc.
there is a difference in playing for the raid and playing for the ranks.

Thats why im not taking Garalon logs at all ? thats why im trying to compare logs with almost exactly same conditions ? Thats why we should use brains when we are looking at those rankings.

Sounds like I should put in an application to Method.
.

Why ? they are raiding and you are only playing instances.

There aren't anywhere near as many people playing demo - its almost 10 times as many playing affliciton. There is no way that we have as many top level samples of Demo ranks. Its not an accurate representation. I'm done.

There arent anywhere near as many ppl playing locks like ppl playing other classes, there is no way that we have as many top lvl samples of affliction ranks. So we can easilly say that affli can even do 50-100k extra DPS than they are doing already. So its still much much better than Demo.

What a stupid argument But hey - blizzard is using same so it must be good right ? Please think a bit next time before you will post something like that Specially that you can check for example Makal results as a affli and as a demo player.

And yes yes i know theres probably thousand players that are playing affli atm - most of them with poor results - players that would shine when playing demo that they DPS would be at same lvl at best affli locks - beating top demo locks we have now by 20%. Im stupid that i didnt knew that before LOL

MOP changed all 3 specs massively, which is why "Top players, Players that are playing those class/spec before MoP, BiS geared players." is irrelevant, to put it nicely.

It was changed massively but spec rules are mostly same for each spec. Demo from the begining of metamorphosis was a spec where you must pimp your dmg during CDs - and same rule we have now.

For another: Raid dps is some kind of rng as it depends on the dps of each player in your raid which also depends on rng. A fire mage in your raid with no proccs does significantly less dps than with proccs. Bad luck with debuffs, boss mechanics or something can effect your raid dps.

Raid buffs and raid cds can also be some kind of rng. If bloodlust alignes with your proccs, you can squeeze out more dps than if they wouldn't.

Yes i already know that Demo players have just always bad RNG and affli best one so thats why we have that kind of results. Yes i know that its they way statstic works: "i can tell lot of bullshits and just blame statistic". Just wondering if Blizzard did it on purpose that demo has always worst rng ever and affli best ... mayby thats the problem ?

And maybe our example with "you only take the 200-300 players"-example only shows that you have no knowledge about statistics.

Do you realize that i have EXACTLY (see ? i must write things in caps cos you simply dont understand what im writing) same opinion about "200-300" players sample for demo/destro ?

So ... if that makes me persone who dont have knowledge about statistics so ... so it seems that all of you also dont have it. It looks a bit silly.

And on top of that, zero discussion about the tier set bonus.

There was already in different topic (5.2 lock changes). Its another "nerf" for demo locks comparing with affli - thats the way blizzard is fixing classes.

[xskarma]

Kandalanu, I need you to tone down the condescending attitude and the sarcasm, cause not everybody gets it and you are dangerously close to just straight out trolling this way.

We get it. Yes, Demo is behind Affliction. But by how much is hard to say, cause we don't have the amount of numbers to be sure. It's reasonable to say that if the top locks are all 20% behind then the spec must be 20% behind, but it's also not unreasonable to still be weary of those numbers cause there are very few of them. The only ones with definitive numbers are Blizzard, and you can rest assured they'll keep them in mind when doing a tuning pass (probably early next week).

[Paraclef]

There was already in different topic (5.2 lock changes). Its another "nerf" for demo locks comparing with affli - thats the way blizzard is fixing classes.

I meant on this topic : http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...ssues-part-ii/

Part one was the same, nothing. GC gives no information or explanation about those Tier 15 " resources bonus " since the beginning.

Waiting for: " balanced as intended " or " rolling an alpha test FU " for warlock as usual.

[Harekrsna]

Destro isn't as powerful as Affliction, but it is still more powerful than most other dps specs (or as powerful as), the meters are skewed because very few warlocks who raid competitively play Destruction because the #'s backup affliction and when it comes to competitive raiding even a few hundred dps possibility is worth playing a less interesting spec.

Destro is more than viable in the highest levels of raiding as is Demo, but it isn't the best choice. And on a progression boss you'll feel like a chump if you know you aren't maximizing your dps in every possible way.

[kandalanu]

@xskarma cmon mate its not about if difference is 10% or its 11% or its 19% or its 15,34%. I personaly think that 5-10% differences in 1 spec are ok. But as we can see its much more than that. Im also sick of waiting over and over for another blizzard lies. I see what they are doing now:

- giving us totally usseles t4 bonus without any synergy with t2
- stil our pets dont get any benefits from lot of buffs during fights
- legendary meta game with useless mechanic
- even trinkets are mostly "bad ones"

It seems that blizzard dont realize (ofc they do, just it seems so) that Demo DPS depends on 2 things:
1) our pets
2) Methamorphosis

In almost each game aspect we have worst possible solutions. Bah it would be even ok for me - even with those numbers we are seeing today. Just i cant stand when at same time blizzards statement looks like:
"Demo is fine, actually Demo is overpowered, just theres not a single player who know this class well enought to do high DPS, actually we are shocked that ppl chose affli since Demo is doing much more DPS"

We are not even AoE class atm. But ... thats not a problem. Theres no demo/destro players, since theres no players = no whining on forum, since no whining on forum = no problem.


Im just wondering what you will wrote when blizzard will show us 5.3 patch notes. I have felling that again we will hear "we just want to test mechanics first then we will make changes in numbers". Just ... there wot be any mechanics, like we dont have any now.


@Paraclef - in that topic blizzard is responding for players. Since theres almost no demo/destro players so theres no question = no problem. Its easy.

[Penguinproof]

"Demo is fine, actually Demo is overpowered, just theres not a single player who know this class well enought to do high DPS, actually we are shocked that ppl chose affli since Demo is doing much more DPS"

Eh, you can check my logs on WoW heroes and say there isn't any good demo locks.

Edit: Penguinproof - US Medivh

[Bonkura]

Or just go through the locks in top 25-man guilds where many of them went Demo more than Affli for progress.

[kandalanu]

2 ppl with l2read issue.

small hint - those are not my words
another hint - i was saying something opossed to that statement you just quoted.




Anyway that doesnt matter you dont understand what you are reading - you just accepted my statement and thats ok.

[fiestatastic]

Demo was the top spec out of all dps for a couple of fights (most notably wind lord, where it does 100k more dps than aff on average) this patch already and isn't too far below for single target either, it's already competitive. And destro isn't too shabby either, especially since so much gear is naturally itemized for those specs with lots of crit.

---------- Post added 2013-02-17 at 01:57 PM ----------

The point that I was trying to make was the following:

If I can hold those ranks then it means that the best numbers for demonology have not been found - I'm neither the most geared or skilled player. I would wager that if I was playing affliction (with the same gear and skill) I would get nowhere near the rankings - granted I would expect to grab a few decent ones but nowhere near top 10 on such a consistent basis.

Case in point on Garalon - obviously I was abusing the leg +damage buff but you can clearly see the point at which I stopped focusing on cheesing by having to take the debuff and kite. I'll wager that the top affliction ranks stick on the legs the whole time...

Granted there are some fights where affliction will obviously be better and that is always going to be the case. My point is that the top ranks of demo are nowhere near as representative as the affliction ones due to the number of people playing it.

makes sense.

[nipil]

1) About destro cheesing meters via overkill : this is a stupid oversight imho

If you analyze the damage when excluding the overkill, you'd see that it's not modifying the specs valuable throughtput relative to the other classes dps spec. How you do that ? Just go to analyze -> damage done -> enter "not (overkill > 0)" in the box -> press enter.

Here's some examples to ilustrate my point :
- Tsulong HM Example #1 : with overkill and without overkill
- Tsulong HM Example #2 : with overkill and without overkill
- Tsulong HM Example #3 : with overkill and without overkill
- Sha HM Example #1 : with overkill and without overkill
- Sha HM Example #2 : with overkill and without overkill

So ... Be it with or without the overkill damage, the destruction lock is still at the same relative spot in the dps stack.

2) Garbage meta + set-bonuses

I don't see how we shouldn't be happy to get a 30% haste proc instead of a flat 3% critdmg buff, that's imho 100x more entertaining... The proc is good, maybe it's not "the best" but i'd take somethin dynamic over something static anytime !

Concerning the "weaker" set bonuses, this is a good thing : just remember that if wether the set bonus is good or bad, we will all be balanced around the fact that we have it. Thus you'll be doing sub-par if you don't have it, and there's no positive side on that. On the other hand, if the set bonus is "appropriately balanced", then you will be less impaced if you are unlucky or carefully chose to go with off-set pieces.

[Lemie]

Hell yeah my Shivarra will go berserk with her sexy blades during that 30% haste buff!

And I will probably go OOM!

[Zumzumzum]

If you analyze the damage when excluding the overkill, you'd see that it's not modifying the specs valuable throughtput relative to the other classes dps spec. How you do that ? Just go to analyze -> damage done -> enter "not (overkill > 0)" in the box -> press enter.

Doesn't this query remove all the damage from the killing blows ? I mean, if I execute an add with SB for 300k + 200k overkill it will remove 500k, not 200k.

[Apero]

2) Garbage meta + set-bonuses

I don't see how we shouldn't be happy to get a 30% haste proc instead of a flat 3% critdmg buff, that's imho 100x more entertaining... The proc is good, maybe it's not "the best" but i'd take somethin dynamic over something static anytime !
.

Is there any proof that the legendary meta replaces the regular one? Thought with http://www.wowhead.com/item=94904 we are able to use both.

[Zumzumzum]

Yup : https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...28896648224768

[Apero]

Yup : https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...28896648224768

Thanks for the Link, this crushed all my hopes

[Whabam]

2) Garbage meta + set-bonuses

I don't see how we shouldn't be happy to get a 30% haste proc instead of a flat 3% critdmg buff, that's imho 100x more entertaining... The proc is good, maybe it's not "the best" but i'd take somethin dynamic over something static anytime !

Concerning the "weaker" set bonuses, this is a good thing : just remember that if wether the set bonus is good or bad, we will all be balanced around the fact that we have it. Thus you'll be doing sub-par if you don't have it, and there's no positive side on that. On the other hand, if the set bonus is "appropriately balanced", then you will be less impaced if you are unlucky or carefully chose to go with off-set pieces.

I don't disagree that its better than nothing - obviously having the bonuses is better than not having them. I for one would find a mastery proc much more entertaining than a haste one however. Most of these things are just making sure that we can get more fury easily/save fury = more fury = more meta uptime. Clearly that is a dps increase - but I would prefer to have a lot less fury and use it well than have a complete abundance and be balanced around having a stupidly high meta uptime. This is my opinion however. Lots of people will probably enjoy not having to manage their fury as well.

[nipil]

Doesn't this query remove all the damage from the killing blows ? I mean, if I execute an add with SB for 300k + 200k overkill it will remove 500k, not 200k.

Of course it does remove everything !

That's the "worst case" scenario, where some people would consider all your killing blow to be 100% cheesed. That way, ie by removing them completely, you're certain that the damage shown on the meter is 100% "legit", thus hopefully ending the discussion before it starts again.

Afaik, the box can only hold selection criteria, not evaluation expressions. So you can't enter "arithmetic expressions" in the box, otherwise, i would have entered something like (amount - overkill) in the box

[kandalanu]

Demo was the top spec out of all dps for a couple of fights (most notably wind lord, where it does 100k more dps than aff on average) this patch already and isn't too far below for single target either, it's already competitive.

Can you please show data that says so ? Or its just "i think its true what ive just wrote just becouse"

2) Garbage meta + set-bonuses

I don't see how we shouldn't be happy to get a 30% haste proc instead of a flat 3% critdmg buff, that's imho 100x more entertaining... The proc is good, maybe it's not "the best" but i'd take somethin dynamic over something static anytime !

Its not like only demo and destro are getting those legendary gem. Also its not instead of meta - its just another gem.

Also its still WORST caster bonus that demo could ever get - its just another thing that makes affli better DPS wise spec. There are few things like that - and we have 15-20% differences in DPS overal.

Concerning the "weaker" set bonuses, this is a good thing : just remember that if wether the set bonus is good or bad, we will all be balanced around the fact that we have it. Thus you'll be doing sub-par if you don't have it, and there's no positive side on that. On the other hand, if the set bonus is "appropriately balanced", then you will be less impaced if you are unlucky or carefully chose to go with off-set pieces.

No no no no first of all we NEVER would be balanced, and we wont be balanced in 5.2 aswell. Now differences wasnt bigger than 15-20% with affli only becouse we had such a great t14 set bonus - that gaves us more than for affli.

Also - please describe how your statement looks like in current tier ? Are we balance over t14 bonuses ? Are we balanced at all ?

[nipil]

Also its not instead of meta - its just another gem.

Nope, it replaces meta (see Zumzum's post above for the tweet source)