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  1. #421
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    Blizzard has that number, they definitely have it. They could reveal it, if they wanted to. Once in a while they do just that.
    Blizzard has an extensive record of pretty much everything that happens in the game.
    From every single quest mob killed, to every single re-spec, re-gem etc.... They sure enough have track records of every single boss kill in the game as well.
    Fair enough but we as a players there is no way in hell we can confirm how much the exact % numbers of which players finished the content or not. And for those who keep saying it's because of websites and wowprogress guess what? even those data are not 100% correct.

    5 months is more than enough to clear 16 bosses normal if you at least raid twice in the week for at least minimum of 2 hours per raid. If you and your guild can't do that and can't put an efforts, dedication, and commientment then this is not Blizzard fault it's you guys sorry to say this. I'm not saying being not having time and dedication is bad playing this game of course not because in the end this is just an entertainment video game but to demand the same treatment and rewards just because you pay for the game is just wrong. you put an effort and dedication? you gain, if you are not? you don't gain as much. It's as simple as that.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    yes you can, but spending time in old content when a new raid out is something nobody wants to do and perfectly good guilds suffer for it.
    Nobody wants to be stuck in progression behind a bugger of a boss, and the TBC system did exactly that, no wonder only 1% saw Illidan and fewer saw KJ.
    I'll admit that TBC raiding had a myriad of problems with it. One problem it didn't have though was complaining over a new raid. When BT came out, people said "wow I can't wait to be doing that one day," instead of being depressed about it.

    That's what happens though when you make old content completely insignificant. People stop raiding an epic Ulduar to run a terrible ToC, because of better shinies.

    Off Topic

    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    You should concentrate on what you're doing and clear T14 or with that gear you will not even kill first boss in T15 anyway.
    Outside of a few exceptions, if you're decently geared, most first boss encounters of raids are pretty faceroll.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by nowish View Post
    Tell me again why people are FORCED to go into the new content? Not that hard to just finish the old one before looking at the 5.2 raid is it?
    Absolutely true. This complaining is just completely nonsensical. Finish T14 at your own pace, then move along. Why does everyone need to be forced into starting new content at the same time? Take your time and enjoy the ride.

  4. #424
    While its not a case of throwing a tantrum, its a bit disappointing to see we wont have time to clear content: we have been steadily progressing at a rate of 1 boss per week (which is oki when you need to clear 16 bosses in a 9 hours of raiding per week) and nothing so far looked insurmountable. We got a little stopped on Will of the emps (25 man) so that one took 1-2 weeks more and we had a 2 weeks holidays break since most of us are normal ppl, but all in all, I see no reason why we wouldn't have finished this tier given few more weeks. I know ppl say that you can just continue t14 after t15 is released, but gl recruiting for a 25 man guild if you're not raiding current content and trying to maintain some half decent ranking. Lagging behind current content is suicide for any guild tbh. Looks good on paper, it's not realistic.

    Sha hc has been killed by 1% of the raiding guilds, that is pretty low, and I wonder how many of the top guild players are looking forward to another push so soon. Otherwise, its mostly LFR players (who I can believe are bored out of their minds) and guilds that are hopelessly stuck on something that appreciate being given something new before being done with the old content.

    Absolutely true. This complaining is just completely nonsensical. Finish T14 at your own pace, then move along. Why does everyone need to be forced into starting new content at the same time? Take your time and enjoy the ride.
    Tell me, have you ever tried to run and recruit for a guild that raids the previous tier? Or generally keep your raiders from seeing the new content? Raiding is a team business, and I got 30 other voices to take into consideration.
    Last edited by Saphiramoon; 2013-02-12 at 05:57 PM.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by nowish View Post
    Tell me again why people are FORCED to go into the new content? Not that hard to just finish the old one before looking at the 5.2 raid is it?
    Because its gona be 10% nerfed and drop sub par gear, the reward isnt there anymore nor the chalenge so why the heck would I do it ? Tell me again why everyone think its fine for a 16 boss tier to last only 5 months, this has never been the case the devs are simply rushing things cause of the disaster that was cataclysm raids but the fail to see the diference between a 7 boss tier and a 16 one.

    Also if we end up with another 9+ months of waiting on the end of the xpac everyone will wonder why didnt they simply let 5.0-5.1 last another month or 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    While its not a case of throwing a tantrum, its a bit disappointing to see we wont have time to clear content: we have been steadily progressing at a rate of 1 boss per week (which is oki when you need to clear 16 bosses in a 9 hours of raiding per week) and nothing so far looked insurmountable. We got a little stopped on Will of the emps (25 man) so that one took 1-2 weeks more and we had a 2 weeks holidays break since most of us are normal ppl, but all in all, I see no reason why we wouldn't have finished this tier given few more weeks. I know ppl say that you can just continue t14 after t15 is released, but gl recruiting for a 25 man guild if you're not raiding current content and trying to maintain some half decent ranking. Lagging behind current content is suicide for any guild tbh. Looks good on paper, it's not realistic.

    Sha hc has been killed by 1% of the raiding guilds, that is pretty low, and I wonder how many of the top guild players are looking forward to another push so soon. Otherwise, its mostly LFR players (who I can believe are bored out of their minds) and guilds that are hopelessly stuck on something that appreciate being given something new before being done with the old content.
    I hear ya, going 1 boss per week somehow isnt fast enought anymore. My guild just killed Vizier last week and it was a blast everyone got super excited already thinking about shek zeer and them bang the bomb comes, patch in 2 weeks. Granted if we keep the 1 boss per raid rate well down Shek Zeer (we need Amber Shapper ad her so 2 weeks) but lets face it raiding 8 hours per week to down Shek in 1 week is gona be super hard, we gona try nonetheless its our death throws hehe.

    I could care less about the cutting edge FoS btw I realy would just like to have enought time to finish this tier liek Ive done in every other raid tier .
    Last edited by DakonBlackblade; 2013-02-12 at 06:02 PM.

  6. #426
    Why do people feel they need to clear Heroic 16/16 before a new tier? Isn't normal enough for you if you are a casual player? Clearing 16/16 bosses in normal in 5 months is extremly easy even if you only raid like 2 nights a week 2-3 hours per night.

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Alwayshealing View Post
    Where are you getting that only 30% have cleared 16/16?.
    wowprogress.com

    30% of the guilds they track, that have downed at least one boss in T14 in normal or heroic, have downed Sha on normal mode.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-12 at 06:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    What really happened was once BT came out those guilds lucky enough to run it were poaching people from all the guilds below them not as far along.
    There was a discussion of hard content causing guild poaching on the official DR&S forum. Interestingly, guild poaching is not an issue right now, since so many guilds are imploding that the top guilds can just recruit from the refugees.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-12 at 06:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by nowish View Post
    Tell me again why people are FORCED to go into the new content? Not that hard to just finish the old one before looking at the 5.2 raid is it?
    The psychic reward -- you know, that internal thing that people play this game for -- is severely diminished in the obsolete content.

    It's like kissing your sister. It's just not the same.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by DakonBlackblade View Post
    I hear ya, going 1 boss per week somehow isnt fast enought anymore. My guild just killed Vizier last week and it was a blast everyone got super excited already thinking about shek zeer and them bang the bomb comes, patch in 2 weeks. Granted if we keep the 1 boss per raid rate well down Shek Zeer (we need Amber Shapper ad her so 2 weeks) but lets face it raiding 8 hours per week to down Shek in 1 week is gona be super hard, we gona try nonetheless its our death throws hehe.
    We got Ambershaper last week after only 14 pulls (a bit of luck helped) and Shekzeer on 10% before enrage on sunday. We decided to extend raid this week and try kill her on wednesday, since thursday is 14th and..yeah. Hopefully we'll get protectors hc too before 5.2 hits, but we're more than 25 raiders and we will try to get a 2nd kill of empress for all of us to get the fos, so that means no time to progress on tsulong.

    And yeah, ppl seem to think killing one new hc boss per week is some sort of shame. Sure I'd like to skip some "farm" and go for more progress, but, for once, you need gear for progress, and second, you still need to clear 5 bosses on hc before progressing on will/empress. It takes time. 16 bosses in this tier have been a nightmare for me as a 25 man guild officer.

    Why do people feel they need to clear Heroic 16/16 before a new tier? Isn't normal enough for you if you are a casual player? Clearing 16/16 bosses in normal in 5 months is extremly easy even if you only raid like 2 nights a week 2-3 hours per night.
    Because you know you can. Because there is nothing stopping you other than time. You didn't hit a brick wall, you just progressed at a normal pace. They never asked us to kill 16 bosses (gated too) in 22 weeks. T11 had 12(13 hc) bosses in 29 weeks and nobody complained it was too long. You dont need to be hardcore to clear 16 hc bosses. I dunno, maybe sha is a show stopper, but the rest aren't . After we've been content starved in cata with DS for 9 months (8 bosses), now this feels like a waste. On my server (Tarren Mill, decently populated on horde side), one guild got Sha hc down on 10 man, none on 25 man.

    Another issue I have with the 5.2 release is the PTR. It's full of bugs, there's been no hc testing, there's been no 25 man testing at all. the 10 man normal encounters I've tried had plenty of issues and you want me to believe they will release the 25 man version blindly perfectly fine?
    Last edited by Saphiramoon; 2013-02-12 at 06:20 PM.

  9. #429
    Pandaren Monk docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingriku View Post
    Well then.... This is awkward but i guess you could learn how to make gold efficently and wouldn't have to depend of a week long event which isn't that good of a gold income.
    Tried that, it doesn't work. Some people are just born with good AH skills, not me.

    Words to live by.

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by DakonBlackblade View Post
    ...makes absolutely no sense that the largest raid tier ever is gona stay around for the shortest amount time as well...
    Neither of those is true. Do you not remember Ulduar, or did you possibly start after that? It was out for only 4 months before ToC was released (April 14-Aug 4, 2009 16 weeks) and contained 13 bosses not counting Algalon. The time the current tier will have been available, assuming the projected release is met, is...

    Mogu'shan Valuts - 21 Weeks
    Heart of Fear - 17 Weeks
    Terrace of Endless Spring - 15 Weeks

    So even if you want to base it off the time that the ENTIRE tier was available it is only shorter by a week. If you base it off the entire tier, which would be the most accurate way, it is right in line with every other tier aside from the end of expansion tiers (ICC and Cata).

    It is also not the largest tier. T7 has that distinction locked up by one boss (Naxx - 15. EoE - 1, Obsidian Sanctum - 1).

    Quote Originally Posted by DakonBlackblade View Post
    Because its gona be 10% nerfed and drop sub par gear, the reward isnt there anymore nor the chalenge so why the heck would I do it ? Tell me again why everyone think its fine for a 16 boss tier to last only 5 months, this has never been the case the devs are simply rushing things cause of the disaster that was cataclysm raids but the fail to see the diference between a 7 boss tier and a 16 one.

    Also if we end up with another 9+ months of waiting on the end of the xpac everyone will wonder why didnt they simply let 5.0-5.1 last another month or 2.



    I hear ya, going 1 boss per week somehow isnt fast enought anymore. My guild just killed Vizier last week and it was a blast everyone got super excited already thinking about shek zeer and them bang the bomb comes, patch in 2 weeks. Granted if we keep the 1 boss per raid rate well down Shek Zeer (we need Amber Shapper ad her so 2 weeks) but lets face it raiding 8 hours per week to down Shek in 1 week is gona be super hard, we gona try nonetheless its our death throws hehe.

    I could care less about the cutting edge FoS btw I realy would just like to have enought time to finish this tier liek Ive done in every other raid tier .
    At one new boss killed per week, you would have been done with everything on normal a month ago. And many people would consider that an extremely casual pace.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  11. #431
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    wowprogress.com

    30%
    AS I said in my previous post that such data and website doesn't mean absolute facts really I just don't get it why some ppl just are so obssesed with websites and treat them as the 100% fact. This is just so wrong in my opinion...yes websites can help a lot with gathering data and stuff but they are not 100% true. By that logic it's like saying hey whoever doesn't post a complaint about blizzard in mmo champ forum or in official wow forum = he is satisfied with the game... now is that true? nope not even close because not all of the players can or know how to access these forums. got the idea now? thanks for reading.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    At one new boss killed per week, you would have been done with everything on normal a month ago. And many people would consider that an extremely casual pace.
    Both him and me are talking about hc modes. My guild cleared the normal modes in 1-2 weeks for each instance when they were available. Elegon and Garalon needed a bit more gear than we had on the first night we tried them, nothing else really posed an issue. Still, waddling through 16 bosses in 9 hours is not that easy. It means 30 mins per boss+trash+tactics+assignments if you one shot them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    AS I said in my previous post that such data and website doesn't mean absolute facts really I just don't get it why some ppl just are so obssesed with websites and treat them as the 100% fact. This is just so wrong in my opinion...yes websites can help a lot with gathering data and stuff but they are not 100% true. By that logic it's like saying hey whoever doesn't post a complaint about blizzard in mmo champ forum or in official wow forum = he is satisfied with the game... now is that true? nope not even close because not all of the players can or know how to access these forums. got the idea now? thanks for reading.
    So, on your opinion, what is the real %? Higher? Lower? Statistics dont need to be 100% true, a general idea is good enough.
    Wowprogress says there's 1% of the guilds that killed Sha hc - would you say its actually 2%? Do you think there is any guild with full progress that doesn't go straight to wowprogress after each kill to update it? I'd like to see that guild. Maybe it's not 1%, maybe its 2%. Would you say 2% is a lot better than 1%?
    Last edited by Saphiramoon; 2013-02-12 at 06:33 PM.

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    AS I said in my previous post that such data and website doesn't mean absolute facts
    You can cross check on guildox, although they aren't as convenient to use.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  14. #434
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    You can cross check on guildox, although they aren't as convenient to use.
    sorry man but you can link me all the data and websites of the world still it doesn't prove anything as a 100% true. By that logic it's like judging ppl from their achievements + gears and wol that they are pro or bad determined by the data of wol or achievements or their gears...now does it prove to be true? yes sometimes but does it show it as a 100% fact true? nope never will be sorry.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-12 at 06:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    Both him and me are talking about hc modes. My guild cleared the normal modes in 1-2 weeks for each instance when they were available. Elegon and Garalon needed a bit more gear than we had on the first night we tried them, nothing else really posed an issue. Still, waddling through 16 bosses in 9 hours is not that easy. It means 30 mins per boss+trash+tactics+assignments if you one shot them.



    So, on your opinion, what is the real %? Higher? Lower? Statistics dont need to be 100% true, a general idea is good enough.
    Wowprogress says there's 1% of the guilds that killed Sha hc - would you say its actually 2%? Do you think there is any guild with full progress that doesn't go straight to wowprogress after each kill to update it? I'd like to see that guild. Maybe it's not 1%, maybe its 2%. Would you say 2% is a lot better than 1%?
    There is no real % at all when it comes to website and data all of these stuff are just theories and statistics they are never 100% true. do they help with gathering data and info? yes of course but do they prove and determint as a absolute fact? no sorry.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Velshin View Post
    sorry man but you can link me all the data and websites of the world still it doesn't prove anything as a 100% true.
    Eh, you're being a passive-aggressive denialist here. That's where when you don't like some uncomfortable facts, you get really picky about the evidence you'll accept, or even lapse into outright nihilism. We see this all the time on forums.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  16. #436
    Warchief Velshin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Eh, you're being a passive-aggressive denialist here. That's where when you don't like some uncomfortable facts, you get really picky about the evidence you'll accept, or even lapse into outright nihilism. We see this all the time on forums.

    No i'm not being passive aggressive but I'm talking about general stuff here not only about wow. Some ppl are so obssessed with some data from the internet and determinte them as an absolute facts 100% which is just wrong because in the world of an internet and techology nothing is certain. As I said even if you bring me an evidence about a certain player being great through websites, data, achievements (either gladiator, or challenge mode transmog gears + heroic clear progress) which with that data proves that he/she is an awesome player I will not judge that player until I play with him/her myself to see how good he/she really is live and not through data or websites. This is just an example of course but I'm talking in general here at least this is who I'm.

  17. #437
    Herald of the Titans Syridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    T14 was overtuned, and this is just bringing the issue to a head.
    Overtuned because? From what I've seen, bad guilds I know have just about managed to finish the normals now, and have no hope at heroics, and the good/hardcore guilds are either finishing the heroics now, or did several weeks back. Anecdotal for certain, but considerably more developed than your own post.

    But no, you're right. Just state your opinion as fact. So interesting.

  18. #438
    The cheer amount of complaining is astonishing. People claiming 'casuals' didn't have time to clear the content! Others being wrong whilst claiming it's the longest tier on the lowest time frame, and so on, so forth.

    Having completed the content a few weeks back, i'm ecstatic for new content. My 'less active' friends, who are at 4-5 heroic bosses done are also glad for new content. They didn't complete the previous, but don't really mind - they are mostly inactive due to stale\'old' 4-5 month content, and this will bring a fresh new excitement to them).

    So yea, massive win-win-win in my eyes. Not everyone will complete every content on it's intended time frame... and it's nonsensical to assume so.

  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Syridian View Post
    Overtuned because? From what I've seen, bad guilds I know have just about managed to finish the normals now, and have no hope at heroics, and the good/hardcore guilds are either finishing the heroics now, or did several weeks back. Anecdotal for certain, but considerably more developed than your own post.

    But no, you're right. Just state your opinion as fact. So interesting.
    Only 30% of raiding guilds have finished normal modes. And you are wrong that good/hardcore guilds are finishing heroics now, unless you define "good/hardcore" to be a very tiny fraction of raiding guilds. Right now, just 424 guilds have downed H Sha as tracked by wowprogress, and this number has been increasing only very slowly.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    Neither of those is true. Do you not remember Ulduar, or did you possibly start after that? It was out for only 4 months before ToC was released (April 14-Aug 4, 2009 16 weeks) and contained 13 bosses not counting Algalon. The time the current tier will have been available, assuming the projected release is met, is...

    Mogu'shan Valuts - 21 Weeks
    Heart of Fear - 17 Weeks
    Terrace of Endless Spring - 15 Weeks

    So even if you want to base it off the time that the ENTIRE tier was available it is only shorter by a week. If you base it off the entire tier, which would be the most accurate way, it is right in line with every other tier aside from the end of expansion tiers (ICC and Cata).

    It is also not the largest tier. T7 has that distinction locked up by one boss (Naxx - 15. EoE - 1, Obsidian Sanctum - 1).



    At one new boss killed per week, you would have been done with everything on normal a month ago. And many people would consider that an extremely casual pace.
    Tier 7 didnt have heroic modes therefore its a smaler tier by a longshot. I migth be wrong but there wasnt Christams/New Year stuck in the middle of Ulduar and it wasnt the first tier in the xpac either, that alone cuts some time from the lifespam of the raid, aside from the world first race ppl very few guilds are actualy geared in 1 week after the xpac lauches, for a guild like mine wher eppl have somewhat limitted time it takes around 3 weeks to start raiding. And the tier that came after Ulduar was a rushed up crappy raid that stayed for way too freaking long when they couldve just let Ulduar around for longer realy.

    Im talking about 1 new H boss per week, thats not quite casual at all, its not hardcore either but theres a bunch of guilds that are placed world 500-1000 that go more or less on this pace so its not realy slow either. I finished normals ages ago I quoted a post of someone saying they wanted to have the time to finish the heroic progression thats why I didnt bother putting an ehroic before every boss I mentioned on my original post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    We got Ambershaper last week after only 14 pulls (a bit of luck helped) and Shekzeer on 10% before enrage on sunday. We decided to extend raid this week and try kill her on wednesday, since thursday is 14th and..yeah. Hopefully we'll get protectors hc too before 5.2 hits, but we're more than 25 raiders and we will try to get a 2nd kill of empress for all of us to get the fos, so that means no time to progress on tsulong.

    And yeah, ppl seem to think killing one new hc boss per week is some sort of shame. Sure I'd like to skip some "farm" and go for more progress, but, for once, you need gear for progress, and second, you still need to clear 5 bosses on hc before progressing on will/empress. It takes time. 16 bosses in this tier have been a nightmare for me as a 25 man guild officer.
    Good to hear Amber was this fast for you guys, who knows maybe we down him as fast and we can actualy try 2 weeks of Shek Zeer, at this point Im not realy bothering too much if we gona manage to try any progression at Terrace at all, Shek is the goal. Still have to see the fight for myself but I feel like ppl make it sound like Amber is harder tham it actualy is, I shall see it tonight if theyre right or not.
    Last edited by DakonBlackblade; 2013-02-12 at 07:09 PM.

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