1. #1

    Hello, Death Knights!

    Hey, fellow Death Knights. I've joined you in death to do some pew pew.

    I'm still leveling and I have few questions.

    1. Frost - dualwield or 2h? I've always played warrior, and dual wield onehanders weren't... fun. When is two-hand better and when is one-hand better? I'm talking about both PvE and PvP.

    2. Frost Strike. Do we really use that? It has kinda low damage and Death Coil is just much better in spending rune power unless we stack mastery.

    3. Stats. What's the priority for frost dk? We have very important frost dmg abilities, so I think the most important stat is mastery, but what then? Is haste important? Is crit more important than mastery?

    4. Reforging. Haste > mastery? Crit > mastery?

    5. Gemming. Strength + mastery all the way?

    Thank you in advance!

  2. #2
    The Insane
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Where Thrall and the Horde needs me to be
    Posts
    15,461
    Frost Strike is your runic dump - period. And 2h is only bettes than DW if the 2h weapon is better than your 1h weapons, however 2h is a lot more smooth honestly.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  3. #3
    1. DW vs 2h is more a question of what you have the best weapons for at the time. DW will pull ahead on pretty much every fight if your weapons are of equal Ilevel to the 2h choice you have. in PvP 2h all the way for the insane burst

    2. Yes, frost strike, regardless of 2h or DW, 40RP vs 20RP, more chances for runic procs. (frost pres lowers RP cost on frost strike dramatically)

    3. DW stack mastery, 2h stack haste for pvp and pve *Of course gem PvP power in PvP, but haste is your main stat

    4.DW-Mastery>crit>haste 2h-Haste>crit>mastery

    5. Str+haste/Str+mastery depending on the weapon choice, I personally gem str if I won't go up a mastery point

    Also, your runic talent should be empowerment for DW, only obliterating with 2 unholy runes to force it to give you frost/death for more HB's, using frost strike to drain RP and on KM procs. for 2h go with corruption, the talent couples up better than empowerment for 2h in my testing due to haste stacking,general rotation is using obliterate on KM procs, obliterating as much as possible, dropping RP with frost strike, HB on rime proc

  4. #4
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Acherus
    Posts
    849
    Quote Originally Posted by resonance7982 View Post
    1. DW vs 2h is more a question of what you have the best weapons for at the time. DW will pull ahead on pretty much every fight if your weapons are of equal Ilevel to the 2h choice you have.
    ^^ True to an extent, but if you're not using Plague leech or blood tap as DW (on a single target fight) then there's every chance that 2h will be ahead due to better burst and smoother use of all your runes rather than trying to game the unholy ones with DW. Basically if you're better at DW, its faster playstyle and the gaming of unholy runes then you'll be better as DW (it pulls ahead on cleave/AOE fights regardless) otherwise go 2h as it's simpler to get the hang of and only requires one good weapon instead of 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by resonance7982 View Post
    4.DW-Mastery>crit>haste 2h-Haste>crit>mastery
    DW = Mastery > haste > crit (PvE)

    5.) Gemming for DW usually involves strength + socket bonus (mastery if yellow) whereas 2h involves gemming either for strength + socket bonus (haste if yellow) or pure haste depending on what you're more comfortable with... The dps difference is minimal.

    Quote Originally Posted by resonance7982 View Post
    Also, your runic talent should be empowerment for DW, only obliterating with 2 unholy runes to force it to give you frost/death for more HB's, using frost strike to drain RP and on KM procs. for 2h go with corruption, the talent couples up better than empowerment for 2h in my testing due to haste stacking,general rotation is using obliterate on KM procs, obliterating as much as possible, dropping RP with frost strike, HB on rime proc
    Why are you telling him to go RE for DW and RC for 2H?

    Blood Tap for DW, forget about not being able to use the unholy runes - just use them and return them as a death rune with blood tap.
    RE comes out ahead for 2H, if you don't like the RNG nature of RE then use blood tap.
    Amazing signature courtesy of Shyama

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    Why are you telling him to go RE for DW and RC for 2H?

    Blood Tap for DW, forget about not being able to use the unholy runes - just use them and return them as a death rune with blood tap.
    RE comes out ahead for 2H, if you don't like the RNG nature of RE then use blood tap.
    Blood Tap is also clunky as all hell imo, and not a good way to introduce someone to the class.

  6. #6
    1. Dual Wield vs 2H.. The numbers that can be pulled using either one, is as above mentioned, dependant on gear + stats of both 1h's and the 2h. I personally use a DW build for PVE, and a 2hander for PVP.

    2. Yes, quite alot actually. even as a rune power dump. if there's ever a frost DK in your group, check the DPS meter and it's like that it will be their top attack. also use more when Killing Machine procs, which is quite a bit. (Empower Rune Weapon + Pillar of Frost + Rime and Killing Machine procs = hello sexy dps.)

    3. Stat wise, is best as follows:
    for PVE:
    Dual Wield: 7.5 Expertise > 7.5 Hit > Haste > Mastery > Crit (Because of timing between swings, more mastery = more dmg from the strikes/dots.)
    2hand: 7.5 Expertise > 7.5 Hit > Haste > Crit > Mastery

    and for PVP Purposes:
    Dual Wield: 3% Expertise > 3% Hit > Power > Resil > Mastery > Haste > Crit (DW DK's are few and far between in PVP)
    2hander: 3% Expertise > 3% Hit > Power > Resil > Haste > Crit > Mastery

    Gemming:
    For Red and Prismatic: use pure 160 strength. (Bold Primordial)
    Blue: either 80 Strength + 160 Hit (Etched Imperial) or 160 Expertise + 160 Hit (Accurate Imperial) < Varies on if you need more Expertise if you're under the cap.
    Yellow: either 80 Strength + 160 Haste (Fierce Vermilion) or 80 Strength + 160 Mastery (Skillful Vermilion) < These two are dependant on a 2h or DW build (the first being for 2h, 2nd for DW)

    Hopefully this is of some help to you.

  7. #7
    Thank you guys for help.

  8. #8
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Acherus
    Posts
    849
    Posting something more informative than my last post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radeghost View Post
    1. Frost - dualwield or 2h? I've always played warrior, and dual wield onehanders weren't... fun. When is two-hand better and when is one-hand better? I'm talking about both PvE and PvP.
    PvE - It doesn't matter much, it's dependant on your preferred playstyle and what weapons/gear you have. DW is more dependant on your overall stats and 2H is more dependant on having a high damage weapon. DW and 2H (under ideal circumstances/proper play) are pretty much identical DPS when it comes to a single target fight. If there's any AOE/cleave then DW pulls ahead due to DW's playstyle using Howling Blast as its main rune-based attack. 2H uses obliterate as its main rune-based attack:

    When dual-wielding, your Death Strikes, Obliterates, Plague Strikes, and Frost Strikes also deal damage with your off-hand weapon, and your Frost Strike damage is increased by 40%.

    When wielding a two-handed weapon, your Obliterate deals 40% more damage, and all melee attacks deal an additional 10% damage.

    By their nature that means DW does a whole load of passive AOE to anything else in the vicinity without any single target penalty. However, using DW effectively requires "gaming" unholy runes using either Runic Empowerment or Blood Tap (not going to bother explaining that here, it's a bit too in-depth if you're literally just starting out as a DK) whereas using 2H doesn't require any real rune management at all, short of sustained AOE or making sure you have death runes available for Soul Reaper. Honestly if you're just starting out go 2H, you'll like the massive obliterate crits and it will get you used to the class.

    PvP - If unholy is out of the question then go 2H frost, DW's fine for spread damage but loses a fair bit sitting in blood presence compared to 2H.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radeghost View Post
    2. Frost Strike. Do we really use that? It has kinda low damage and Death Coil is just much better in spending rune power unless we stack mastery.
    Yes, it costs less runic power than death coil. It's your hardest hitting ability (along with soul reaper) as DW and still does a fair amount of damage as 2h. The use of frost strike procs whatever rune regen talent you've chosen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radeghost View Post
    3. Stats. What's the priority for frost dk? We have very important frost dmg abilities, so I think the most important stat is mastery, but what then? Is haste important? Is crit more important than mastery?
    For PVE at least:

    DW: 7.5% Expertise > 7.5% Hit > Strength > Mastery> Haste > Crit
    2H: 7.5% Expertise > 7.5% Hit > Strength > Haste > Crit > Mastery

    As DW a lot of your damage comes from howling blast and frost strike, hence mastery... While haste is important to a point you'll find yourself with a VERY small amount of downtime using DW, especially when you factor in AMS absorbing (which simcraft does not do). Additionally with any secondary target being hit by your howling blast mastery will pull ahead even more.

    As 2H haste = more runes and more swings, more killing machine procs to use on obliterate. Obliterate is your number one damaging ability and it's not impacted by your amount of mastery, neither is soul reaper... Hence crit being more important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radeghost View Post
    5. Gemming. Strength + mastery all the way?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dazicals View Post
    Gemming:
    For Red and Prismatic: use pure 160 strength. (Bold Primordial)
    Blue: either 80 Strength + 160 Hit (Etched Imperial) or 160 Expertise + 160 Hit (Accurate Imperial) < Varies on if you need more Expertise if you're under the cap.
    Yellow: either 80 Strength + 160 Haste (Fierce Vermilion) or 80 Strength + 160 Mastery (Skillful Vermilion) < These two are dependant on a 2h or DW build (the first being for 2h, 2nd for DW)
    ^^ What he said

    Read about talents, rotations and other things here:

    http://elitistjerks.com/f72/
    Last edited by vmagik; 2013-02-19 at 10:06 AM.
    Amazing signature courtesy of Shyama

  9. #9
    Thank you very much mate. :P

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    Blood Tap for DW, forget about not being able to use the unholy runes - just use them and return them as a death rune with blood tap.
    RE comes out ahead for 2H, if you don't like the RNG nature of RE then use blood tap.
    I told him that because I personally use those, micro-managing for DW is annoying as hell, and my RNG tends to be better than the set rotation of runes from BT, not to mention simply gaming for frost/death is not difficult at all. and RC for 2h because in my personal testing I found myself rune/RP starved a lot less than when I used RE. stacking haste + RC regens your runes extremely quickly. I realize that copy and pasting every guide out there may be the best way to go, but out of the 3, it's really just personal preference and won't be a big dps swing regardless of what you take. Also, most guides are for getting started, talent choices can change as your gear gets more advanced and certain stats couple up with other talents to pull ahead. Moral of the story.. try it out before completely disregarding something

  11. #11
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Acherus
    Posts
    849
    Quote Originally Posted by resonance7982 View Post
    I realize that copy and pasting every guide out there may be the best way to go
    That's funny, didn't realise I copy-pasted my above statements from anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by resonance7982 View Post
    Moral of the story.. try it out before completely disregarding something
    Have done, spent too long trying out different talents, how they feel, how they sim and overall DPS increases/loss. If you want to recommend talents depending on how they feel rather than actually getting the most out of your DPS (you know, the main reason we're taken to raids etc in the first place) then I can do that to:

    HAI, GO 2H FROST, TAKE UNHOLY BLIGHT AND BLOOD TAP, MACRO BLOOD TAP TO FROST STRIKE AND HIT ALL THE BUTTONS THAT LIGHT UP.

    Quote Originally Posted by resonance7982 View Post
    Also, most guides are for getting started
    Not really, http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t131138-..._festerblight/
    Amazing signature courtesy of Shyama

  12. #12
    The Patient
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    right behind you
    Posts
    292
    Quote Originally Posted by Radeghost View Post
    Hey, fellow Death Knights. I've joined you in death to do some pew pew.

    I'm still leveling and I have few questions.

    1. Frost - dualwield or 2h? I've always played warrior, and dual wield onehanders weren't... fun. When is two-hand better and when is one-hand better? I'm talking about both PvE and PvP.

    2. Frost Strike. Do we really use that? It has kinda low damage and Death Coil is just much better in spending rune power unless we stack mastery.

    3. Stats. What's the priority for frost dk? We have very important frost dmg abilities, so I think the most important stat is mastery, but what then? Is haste important? Is crit more important than mastery?

    4. Reforging. Haste > mastery? Crit > mastery?

    5. Gemming. Strength + mastery all the way?

    Thank you in advance!
    Seeing as how most of these answers are aimed at end-game,I will try to give you answers that are aimed at levelling.

    1) 2H is definitely the way to go for levelling. More burst, more direct damage (due to big OB hits) and more aute-attack damage. I find 2H more fun myself because I love seeign huge OB crits. DW doesn't use OB at all...they just spam HB and FS. 2H uses OB, FS as a rp dump, and only HB when rime procs. As for pvp, definitely 2H. DW will fare better against plate classes due to your main attacks being frost damage, but 2H fares better against all other classes due to OB being physical damage. THere are more non-plate classes than plate lasses, so 2H is better. If you can utilize things properly and save your rp for FS spam against other plate classes, you still can do well against them. Make sure you're saviing your KM procs for OB whenever possible. It is worth it to sit on a KM proc for a couple seconds to wait for an OB, but this is situational. oth icy-veins and elitist jerks have some good info on this.

    2) This is already covered, but yes. Its usually #2 or #3 on my damage charts, and is super important in proccing RE (at lvl 90). Damage may be low at low levels, but get used to it, because its your signature ability, and is a way more efficient use of rp than DC. If you do the math, the damage form 1.5 FS will be greater than the damage from 1 DC (20 rp for FS plus 12 rp for .5 fs to equal 32 rp for a DC).

    3)Again, mostly covered, but haste for 2H and mastery for DW, making sure you're at hit and expertise caps (3% for pvp, and I think 7% now for pve). For pvp, stack resilience, not pvp power. Dks are probably the squishiest class inthe game for pvp right now. Our defensives are a joke. AMS is good for casters, but, even glyphed, it gets eaten through in 1 or 2 spells. IBF is a joke. Death strike is near useless in pvp since the nerf a while back. Even popping blood presence to try and live only prolongs things a cople seconds. Stay away from warriors, rogues, and enh shammies. THey will destroy you. Even with fully upgraded mal and t2 weapon, my dk gets destroyed by crappy warriors and hunters (even with 65% resil). Our strenght lies in wrecking casters. Spreists, locks, most healers (except monks, fuck them in their stupid faces), ele shammies, and most mages are a tasty and welcome snack.

    4) Again covered, but 2H is haste>crit>mastery. Can't remember DW off the top of my head, but mastery is #1 for them.

    5) Gemming depends on what you're doing. Str + mastery works for dw, but not for 2H (pve of course). You also have to look at the socket bonuses as well. If they're not at least a 30 str bonus, just go straight strength and get your secondary stats through reforging. For pve its resil or str/resil resil/power hybrids. IIRC, a;; the socket bonuses in pvp are resil, so they are worth picking up, ESPECIALLY if you're doing rbg's. As a fdk in rbg's, you'll most likely be the target caller, and being able to survive being focused is more important than damage, because you don't do any damage when you're dead. I laugh my ass off when I chew through other dks who gem pvp power in rbgs. My resil > your power, and you will die before me.

    Just a side note, all this info is readily available on noxxic, elitist jerks, icy veins, or about 214352121 different threads on this site. I really don't get these lazy people who refuse to take 10 minutes out of their day to find out their own info. This guy is just lucky I was bored and feeling generous at work tonight, or my response likely would have been a lot more acerbic.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •