Wish Blizz would scrap level 90 mage talents :\

[Polarthief]

60 seconds maybe for fire/frost.

Haste/Invo its more like every 15 seconds :x.

Making it even more dumb.

[Akraen]

A majority of the mage community is really agreeing with this. However, do we need fifty threads on the topic? What's happening is nearly all our discussion ends up getting to this core issue-- we don't like these talents.

I'm surprised nobody has done a poll yet, because then some real numbers could be handed to Ghostcrawler to prove this isn't some made up majority like nearly every other issue.

[Televators]

A majority of the mage community is really agreeing with this. However, do we need fifty threads on the topic? What's happening is nearly all our discussion ends up getting to this core issue-- we don't like these talents.

I'm surprised nobody has done a poll yet, because then some real numbers could be handed to Ghostcrawler to prove this isn't some made up majority like nearly every other issue.

Experience would dictate that Blizz doesn't seem to care much about polls or what people on forums think. Not verbatim, but haven't devs repeatedly said that people on forums only complain, so they don't take the feedback too seriously?

I doubt these talents will ever change as no dev has ever even mentioned that there is negative feedback concerning the entire tier of talents.

[Elegiac]

Experience would dictate that Blizz doesn't seem to care much about polls or what people on forums think. Not verbatim, but haven't devs repeatedly said that people on forums only complain, so they don't take the feedback too seriously?

I doubt these talents will ever change as no dev has ever even mentioned that there is negative feedback concerning the entire tier of talents.

Why would they? Nobody likes admitting they were wrong or fucked up on an issue, corporations even less so.

Furthermore, our class' Least Valuable Poster happens to like the Level 90 talents, creating a false image of satisfaction.

[Akraen]

Why would they? Nobody likes admitting they were wrong or fucked up on an issue, corporations even less so.

Furthermore, our class' Least Valuable Poster happens to like the Level 90 talents, creating a false image of satisfaction.

Imnick vs. every other mage ever?

[Elegiac]

Imnick vs. every other mage ever?

Dragon and I were discussing this very issue in WoW: we've come to the conclusion that those who support the Level 90 talents probably are not serious raiders.

[Verain]

"So, what can you guys bring to the raid?"

Balance druid: I can do a really wicked awesome burn phase, or I can spec to have a long period where I'm basically a healer. I've got battle res and tranquility.

Elemental shaman: My ascendance is absolutely ludic, especially if you throw a skull banner. I can do some heal cleaves, and though stormlash is listed in everyone else's section on the meter, that's really my damage too. Plus my totems can help at times, depending on the fight.

Warlock: Well, I'm just tuned too high as affliction. I bring multidot, and I my other specs offer serious burst on timers, and powerful burst aoe depending.

Mage: I bring a raid mechanic that the fight didn't already have. STOP STANDING IN MY RUNE

[Methusula]

So if we are supposed to plant and blast, how is that design going to work in today's pvp environment? Blizz can balance the stand and nuke philosophy in pve, but it's another story entirely in pvp.

[Imnick]

Dragon and I were discussing this very issue in WoW: we've come to the conclusion that those who support the Level 90 talents probably are not serious raiders.

Come on that is just a ridiculous generalisation, it doesn't make your point any stronger to add it in.

If you're going to present anything to Ghostcrawler he already said he doesn't really put much weight in arguments that purely talk about how many people dislike something, he's going to object even more if you say "the only people who don't like these talents aren't serious about pve"

[Verain]

So if we are supposed to plant and blast, how is that design going to work in today's pvp environment? Blizz can balance the stand and nuke philosophy in pve, but it's another story entirely in pvp.

Probably the same way that running a full pve rotation in pvp is supposed to work: not well.

Mages are in fine shape in pvp. Rogues in pve are designed around 100% uptime, but you wouldn't want a combat rogue glued to your hip in pvp- and trivial kiting destroys rogue rotations way worse than mages get hurt without runes / etc. If you were allowed to turret in arenas with pve rotations, it would be ludicrous- you aren't supposed to do 100k dps sustained in pvp :P

Short story: PvP is entirely different. My gripe with pve is that all of these mechanics are not balanced well with each other and they force behaviors that other casters don't have.

[Xomniuri]

Being a turret class is fine to me, but there's a big difference in being a turret eg arcane mages in Cata, and being stuck to the exact same spot, then having to spend a 1.5sec cast and global cd's when you have no choice but to move.

Also Considering IW has such a short cd it really shouldn't be on the global cooldown, and be able to be used while casting like Temporal Shield

Personally i'm always yelling during boss fights at my 9 other raid members to get the f* away from me, because if i have to move my dps gets tanked till i move and get setup again, while they can just "la la la" jump and run around not losing anything, I'd hate to see how frustrated 25man mages get.

[zomgDPS]

So if we are supposed to plant and blast, how is that design going to work in today's pvp environment?

It doesn't. And if we really dig into it, it is one of the glaring miscalculation on Blizz's part as far as considering the viability of a static caster in today's game. In some ways, the failure of the design in PvP is ever larger than it is for PvE.

Though I guess they don't see it that way, since they always have the 'fallback' of saying "oh WoW is primarily a PvE game anyway", an excuse they have used in the past numerous times.

Mages are in fine shape in pvp.

Mages are in no way fine in PvP. Frost Mages are, sure, but, like has been the misrepresentation many many many many times over, Mages as a class on the whole are in a very very grim state.

Why so grim? Well since mages in general get pwned on two fronts in PvP.

1. If you have to PvP in any competitive fashion, you pretty much have to be a Frost Mage. There really is no other way to see it now. And yes, this goes for both Arenas as well as rBGs. Fire had a few moments of glory when 5.0 dropped, but with numerous fire nerfs both direct (CM) and indirect (deep), fire is back to really being a PvE only spec.

The 'grimness' of this is comes from the fact that since one spec is in fact totally viable (and strong), Mages as a class will never get the attention they need. If you are a mage sick of PvPing as frost (god knows, I am), the issue will just not be fixed, since Blizz can always just point to frost and say "well, if you want to PvP, use frost" and wash their hands of the matter (which is precisely what they have done, both historically and currently in MoP).

2. The second major way mages get boned in PvP is the simple fact of the statement you made. Other players, ones that do not see a distinction anymore between a Frost Mage in PvP or an Arcane mage, will never rally behind the idea that maybe Arcane sucks extremely hard in PvP, since they will just point to the Frost mage that dueled them and be like "look.. mages are fine, what are you QQing about". This just compounds the effect I made in point (1), the point being that it is even that much more impossible to get the core PvP issues of mages fixed since there is literally no one (not even Frost mages themselves) who will want the other specs fixed.

As a very interesting side point, can you believe that even right now on the mage forums, Lhivera is actually rallying a massive thread in an effort to get Arcane nerfed even further? The best part is, that the 'math' he has provided is actually wrong and he has been called out on in (n.b. his math is wrong because he doesn't even know the right numbers for Arcane), yet he is still not conceding the point but instead pushing his agenda further. (want proof?: see this post by him, and this post by Napwneon that proves him wrong due to faulty math - yet people still rally behind this guy for 3+ pages. Its pretty absurd at this point).



When you realize that you are faced with not only a set of developers are indifferent to your plight, not only other classes who cannot distinguish between "Frost mage" and "Mage", and not only a community within your own class who is hell bent on ensuring nothing other than their own spec will ever succeed in the game, you start to realize the depth and scope of the problem that non-Frost mages have in trying to get themselves fixed in PvP.


It will take nothing short of a massive community wide crusade to get it done. Something which mages cannot accomplish in their current inter-bickering state.

[khatsoo]

I enjoyed my alt mage until 89. I hate those talents, they feel more like a restriction than an addition to your bag of skills.

[Verain]

Mages are in no way fine in PvP. Frost Mages are, sure, but, like has been the misrepresentation many many many many times over, Mages as a class on the whole are in a very very grim state.

No, mages as a class spec frost and are fine.

Now, I'll add this- I do think every spec deserves viability. But when people look at warriors at 20% (about double the correct population) above 2200, you know warriors are broken. You also know, meanwhile, that fury is bad, and needs help.

Why so grim? Well since mages in general get pwned on two fronts in PvP.

Also known as "fronts not actually appearing in pvp".

You know what spec needs the most help in pvp right now? Mutilate. It's even behind Wind Walker! And maybe they'll buff it. But, like fury, fire, holy priest, and arcane, understand that these are weaker specs in pvp in general.

The 'grimness' of this is comes from the fact that since one spec is in fact totally viable (and strong), Mages as a class will never get the attention they need. If you are a mage sick of PvPing as frost (god knows, I am), the issue will just not be fixed, since Blizz can always just point to frost and say "well, if you want to PvP, use frost" and wash their hands of the matter (which is precisely what they have done, both historically and currently in MoP).

This isn't grim for the class. It's grim for two specs of the class, and as a rogue, I hear you 100%- we've had this issue for like, expansions, and this patch we have no spec even as viable as fire. But the point I was addressing wasn't "hey, we need fire and arcane to be good in pvp", it was "hey, my level 90 talents require me to hold still and cast, and I can't do that in pvp like I can in pve". No, of fucking COURSE you can't, no one can, just like melee can't ask to Patchwerk down clothies the whole game.

2. The second major way mages get boned in PvP is the simple fact of the statement you made. Other players, ones that do not see a distinction anymore between a Frost Mage in PvP or an Arcane mage, will never rally behind the idea that maybe Arcane sucks extremely hard in PvP, since they will just point to the Frost mage that dueled them and be like "look.. mages are fine, what are you QQing about".[/quote]

No, we don't point to a frost mage we just duelled, we point to large mage rep in high rated pvp, and we are correct to do so. If you want to suggest buffs to arcane and fire that won't also buff frost (aka, a level 90 talent is NOT how to handle this), then go right ahead. You'll find I'm on your side there, because arcane and fire are pretty scarce in arenas these days. But "make my level 90 talent be 15% increased damage in pvp" is not a damned fix. A cooldown that gives you a full stack of AB might be, as could a fire mage trick to deal a bit more single target. Not that fire is THAT weak in pvp- it's probably just weaker than it should be. Frost is actually a bit too strong, so it becomes opaque (are the fire mages all frost because fire is terrible and frost is a bit too good, or is it just because frost is a bit too good?).

When you realize that you are faced with not only a set of developers are indifferent to your plight, not only other classes who cannot distinguish between "Frost mage" and "Mage",

Apparently YOU can't make that distinction because you cannot parse the post I responded too, which complained that "stand and plant" isn't a thing you can do much of in pvp. The point is, you shouldn't be able to, and are balanced around not doing so. If you have fire or arcane specific pvp buffs in mind, super. But until someone starts saying THOSE, then yea, everything is just going to buff frost in pvp (say, for instance, improving the terrible level 90 talents without compensatory changes).

It will take nothing short of a massive community wide crusade to get it done. Something which mages cannot accomplish in their current inter-bickering state.

Yea, but make sure mutilate is the priority here for weak specs ok? Numbers say it needs it most.

[Obelisk Kai]

The level 90 talents aren't going anywhere for a very long time, they only thing we can do is keep arguing our case for their improvement during the lifetime of this expansion. We have to accept that the talents are here to stay (at least until the next beta, that is going to be the big opportunity if they still stink)

What is the purpose of our sixth tier of talents? It is, as ZomgDPS points out, to make us stand still and fulfill the role of static caster. It is also rooted in Mana Management, a concept they took from the Arcane tree and applied to the whole class (albeit not on the same level as an Arcane Mage).
Given that TWO of the talents either replace or modify the Evocation Spell it is probably impossible to separate the mana management aspect out of the talents. That has to be worked around.

There is nothing wrong with this purpose. The problem is that our talents feel like chores to use instead of rewards. To make tier 6 work, the talents have to feel exciting to press the button.

Blizzard seems to have a model with several tiers, best seen now in our upcoming tier 2. There is the Passive Talent, which is always on and doesn't need to be pushed. In tier 2, this is Flameglow. There is the reactive, where a certain set of circumstances needs to happen for you to want or even be able to push the button. In tier 2, this is temporal shield, you want to use it to react to incoming big damage. The final type is Active, which in tier 2 is Ice Barrier. You need to press it to keep the shield up, it is an active choice.

When we come to tier 6, we find we have one reactive talent in Incanter's Ward. As I have mentioned previously, I find Incanter's Ward a perfectly ok talent. It provides a moderate passive when not in use, and in situations where the effect can be fully triggered its reactive style of gameplay is rewarding. That is the key word, right there, rewarding. Pushing the Incanter's Ward button rewards me with a big drop of spell damage, but it is frequent enough for me to use often in the fights where I am able to use it. If it was taken off the global cd then that would be the icing on the cake. The problem with IW though, or its upside, is it so perfectly niche. There are few fights where I actually want it. More often that not, I'll be using the other two.

Rune of Power is salvageable. Historically, any fight in this game that has offered a big shiny circle which ups my dps by a substantial amount, I want to stand in that circle. I want to game the area, ensure I have maximum space to deploy. Hell, I might even hold onto my cooldowns to gain maximum damage. Why then does Rune of Power arouse such ire? Because it is constant and because it is clunky and because we can't shake the suspicion that rather boosting our dps for standing still and rewarding us, that we have to stand still to stay level with the other dpsers in our raid. We have to cast 1.5 seconds to place it, and we have to use a targeting reticule to do so. That is the clunky bit.
The constant bit is that ANY movement of any sort feels like a punishment, and this tier is full of fights with movement. There is rarely any fight where you are not going to be to forced to move at least once or twice while on a rune.This goes back to that feeling of reward. Rune of Power never bestows that feeling. It merely punishes for your failure to stand in it 100% of the time. And a talent we perceive that only punishes us is always going to be hated.

At this point I believe only reworking Rune of Power into a cooldown with substantial length ( say 20 seconds) and delivering a dps boost (40%?) relative to its shorter duration, a cooldown of one minute and giving it a HUGE mana regeneration buff (think about it, instead of 75% a tick over the full minute, the amount of mana Rune of Power regenerates could be quadrupled instead so when you popped it, your depleted mana bar would surge up back nearly to full. Yes, it would need changed for Arcane but they are willing to do it for Invocation. As for quality of life, the damn thing should drop beneath you with no cast time. This version of Rune of Power would contain both Reward and would be challenging to use for mana regeneration and indeed, challenging the player. It would be the Active button. the penalty of course would be lower dps during the down phases when you don't have Rune. But you'd be craving it, looking forward to the next rune, just like fire mages used to look forward to the execute phase on a boss so their damage would spike.

Rune of Power now pales beside Invocation. All Invocation demands is you stand still for three seconds once a minute and all the damage benefits of Rune of Power will be yours. You maintain your freedom to move when needed, and those three seconds grant you that craved for emotion, reward. . It changes substantially when you spec Arcane, although I understand the reasons for it.
HOWEVER...if Rune of Power were to become a cooldown (the one that provides the big hits and MAYBE, if gamed correctly with other cooldowns some truly staggering hits), then Invocation would become almost the passive choice. Three second cast every minute, 15% passive damage buff. Bit short on mana? Channel a tick. And Invocation would retain it's advantages of ease of use and be the more mobility friendly. Hmm...the more I think about it the more I realise Invocation in 5.2 will also be fine. It all boils downt to Rune.

TLDR. IW is fine. Rework Rune of Power into a cooldown, the trade off being below average dps when you don't have it active with benefits flowing from judicious timing with bloodlust, potions and (Arcane Power/Icy Veins/Combustion). I now believe the new Invocation to be fine, as it ALMOST functions as the passive talent of the tier.

[zomgDPS]

No, mages as a class spec frost and are fine.
You also know, meanwhile, that fury is bad, and needs help.

You know what spec needs the most help in pvp right now? Mutilate. It's even behind Wind Walker!

And this is the most frustrating thing about discussing this topic with you guys.

You fail to see that your argument is actually completely disjoint and irrational, and instead, you turn the entire conversation into a p!ssing match about "who has it worse".

When did this conversation turn into "which specs needs the most attention"? Better yet, please do explain the LOGIC of a statement (the one you are making) that is essentially saying this:

"Non-frost Mage specs are fine in PvP because there exists another spec who needs more help than non-frost specs"


Please, quantify for me how exactly the needs of spec A relates to whether or not spec B is pvp viable? This is the crux of the logical failure of your argument.
You feel that 'since spec X of class A needs help in PvP, that means any other spec that needs help is fine'. It is precisely this lack of rationalle that I cover in my first point.
The day the greater moronic population of WoW learns that the viability of one spec has absolutely no bearing on whether or not another spec should be considered viable, will be the day this will be a much better game. But alas, we cannot charge morons more to play the game.


Basically the "Mages are fine because my class needs help" has never been and will never be an actual rational argument. It is a fallacy at best and a poor attempt at trolling at worst.

Fuck I wish they taught critical thinking in schools nowadays, just so I don't have to deal with sh!t like this.

Apparently YOU can't make that distinction because you cannot parse the post I responded too, which complained that "stand and plant" isn't a thing you can do much of in pvp. The point is, you shouldn't be able to, and are balanced around not doing so.

Sure.. but at the same time, Arcane as a spec is required to stand still, plant, and channel for 4+ seconds in order to get its damage in PvP off, which is precisely why it does not work in PvP.

Though at the end of the day, I'm not even sure why I'm discussing this with you. Your agenda here is perfectly clear for all to see. Take it elsewhere.

[Norech]

This, pretty much. I like Incanter's Ward because it's a nice passive bonus and gives you a nice little burst CD in some special cases (like last phase Elegon).

Yeah and not to mention its total garbage when compared to the other talents.

[Verain]

And this is the most frustrating thing about discussing this topic with you guys.

I'll let you guess what the most frustrating part about discussing things with YOU is!

You fail to see that you're argument is actually completly disjoint and irrational, and instead, you turn the entire conversation into a p!ssing match about "who has it worse".

Well, it's no pissing match. If we are breaking classes down into specs, then the tanks have it worst in arena, but that is by design. After that, we definitely have mutilate rogues. Then we get to a point where things are hard to call, exactly. For instance, I've seen some really strong monks pull off some strong moves with backup from their friends, but there's so few that I don't know if I'm seeing a gladiator player being held back or if this is just one of a subset of good players who have learned to play- because monk is so fresh. I saw plenty of fire mages before the fire nerf, but arcane has been really sparse in mop, and I'm sure a silly 6-stack is a huge part of that.

When did this conversation turn into "which specs needs the most attention"?

YOUR POST. Like, the one I'm replying too, is when you start QQing about fire and arcane being held back by frost.

Better yet, please do explain the LOGIC of a statement (the one you are making) that is essentially saying this:

"Non-frost Mage specs are fine in PvP because there exists another spec who needs more help than non-frost specs"

That's not what I said. I said, the priority should be to fix the shittiest specs, and that it's hard to figure out how shitty a bad spec is when it has such an amazing (overpowered) spec. For instance, it is absolutely undisputed that arms is broken on live- the numbers are shocking, the devs admit it, the players are only not furious because nerfs have been announced and on the PTR for a long time. Now, fury... how broken is fury? Do you know? How do you know? If you just go by the rep of fury from the arena stats, you have to understand- and breathe, ok? That when two specs have the same gear requirements, that players will often pick the one that outperforms the other. If both offer different strengths and weaknesses, then you'll see more diversity. For instance, if fire complements moonkins for some reason, then you might see that in a comp. But no one is playing fury except to diddle around. This is because it doesn't offer anything materially better than arms, but if it did, if it was as good as arms- it would be just as broken. Arms nerfs mostly aren't going to hurt fury, but fury probably still needs help.

Fire mages are definitely more powerful in pvp on live than my entire class. Are they even below average? With frost a bit overpowered, it's super hard to figure out how big of a buff fire needs, right? You follow this? Because most mages go frost, because it is better. Not because fire deserves to be bad, or everyone hates fire/arcane in pvp, but because it is not obvious where it is at.

Please, quantify for me how exactly the needs of spec A relates to whether or not spec B is pvp viable? This is the crux of the logical failure of your argument.

I'll do it again here:

Fire and arcane are weaker than they should be in pvp. Frost being so good draws almost all the players out of those pools, so they don't play the weak spec. This thread is about level 90 talents, and standing and casting. If you buff level 90 talents to not need or reward that, then you are really just buffing frost. So while frost is overpowered, it is difficult to judge the viability of fire (probably viable but poor) and arcane (probably horrible), because those mages just opt the hell out of their weaker specs. But some would do that if frost was only like 4% better or something, or if the community tells them too.

You feel that 'since spec X of class A needs help in PvP, that means any other spec that needs help is fine'. It is precisely this lack of rationalle that I cover in my first point.

I never even said that. Please reread.

The day the greater moronic population of WoW learns that the viability of one spec has absolutely no bearing on whether or not another spec should be considered viable, will be the day this will be a much better game. But alas, we cannot charge morons more to play the game.

The viability of one spec does affect the numbers running it dude, that's what I'm saying. And that if you want to start fixing broken specs, the mage specs aren't near the top of the pile compared to the garbage some other specs are dealing with on live.

Basically the "Mages are fine because my class needs help" has never been and will never be an actual rational argument. It is a fallacy at best and a poor attempt at trolling at worst.

Maybe you should read my words.

Fuck I wish they taught critical thinking in schools nowadays, just so I don't have to deal with sh!t like this.

Is this really a post on mmo-c?

Sure.. but at the same time, Arcane as a spec is required to stand still, plant, and channel for 4+ seconds in order to get its damage in PvP off, which is precisely why it does not work in PvP.

I even mentioned a possible idea to fix that- which, you know, you haven't (a cooldown that snaps your stacks up). Many other ways would work to fix that, all arcane specific (stack falling time, alternate pvp buttons like icelance). The reversion of 6-stack, which is pretty much all pve motivated anyway, is also in that list.

Though at the end of the day, I'm not even sure why I'm discussing this with you. Your agenda here is perfectly clear for all to see. Take it elsewhere.

No.

---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 01:07 AM ----------

Yeah and not to mention its total garbage when compared to the other talents.

I think they are scared to buff IW because of pvp. That's all I can come up with, really- it has very poor synergy with arcane in most situations (you need to be blasting at max stacks when the damage hits to sear off the bubble), and it's not that wonderful for fire and frost. I do wonder what would happen if it added mana above and beyond your bar (would still count as 100 for mastery), essentially increasing max mana- arcane might buy into it then. But I suspect they will redesign before doing odd things.

[Baracuda]

Did you.. What the.. I don't even know how to answer to this. Other then anticipation, rogue 90 are a joke. Don't get me wrong, mages are definately worst but not by much. Shuriken toss would've been great as a weapon throw combo not as a 90 talent. Lastly that piece of shit versatility, oh the rage.

I like versatility's replacement "marked for death" on the PTR, it's nice.

[Soulstrike]

Dragon and I were discussing this very issue in WoW: we've come to the conclusion that those who support the Level 90 talents probably are not serious raiders.

ah lol......./facepalm

@Op i think zomgdps already mentioned this we are pretty much the test subject for this expansion and also what swizzle said we lvl90 talents arent going anywhere until end of expansion (sorry to burst your bubble peeps) but hey keep on posting how dumb lvl90 s are right?? only thing that could use for our lvl90 talent is leaving rop gives you damage buff for xS thats it everything else is being changed to help qol sake (invocation) though iw could use better passive less burst imo