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  1. #1
    Moderator Alysmera's Avatar
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    WW and Raid Comp

    I've had a few arguments back and forth so far about whether or not Windwalker will have a raid spot in 5.2. After my own testing, I have found that our numbers are nothing short of competitive, and the fact that we now have something to "fill the hole" (per se) on fights with 2-3 targets will make us much more desirable.

    I've heard a few people in high-end raiding guilds state that they want to have at least 1-2 Windwalkers on their roster - though no more than that. To me, that indicates that we are becoming a strong class. Then there are others who state that our 5.2 numbers mean nothing, and we will be nerfed to the ground if we are able to out-damage rogues - making us less desirable, as we would be a hybrid out-damaging a pure DPS class.

    Here are my thoughts:

    • Monk itself is a hybrid class in that one can choose 3 different roles (tank, healer, DPS) but the Windwalker role itself is not especially hybrid. Most other hybrid roles are able to use a semi-strong heal (such as Healing Surge, Flash of Light, et cetera) to do quick "off heals" or are able to turn on a buff (Blood Presence, Righteous Fury) in order to tank in a ten second gap (or so). Windwalker can taunt, but not necessarily hold aggro, and our Chi Wave is arguably weaker than, for example, a Ret Paladin's spammable Flash of Light. Because we do not contain that utility, I consider our specialization closer to a "pure" class than Mistweaver (which can damage while heal) or Brewmaster (which can switch to Stance of the Fierce Tiger, though they do more damage in their tank stance). As I mentioned to someone in a raid - having a healing or tank spec does not give a class's spec "utility" - because having them switch is not bringing that class.
    • Because our offhealing is arguably weak, and our offtanking (while decent) is more comparable to a Rogue's evasion tanking, I feel that Windwalkers should be able to do competitive numbers. We do not have a raid-wide cooldown such as Skull Banner or Stormlash Totem, and as I mentioned, our hybrid functionality is much weaker than that of other classes.
    • Of course, there are PvP concerns. But then - even Rogues have recuperate.

    Overall, I'm not sure how fair or unfair my assessment is. It does enter into utility - which is something I'm attempting to avoid, but let's face it - most Windwalker discussions come down to that. I also feel that Windwalkers are incredibly underrepresented in PvE, including high-end content where I find many (including myself) benched in favor of another class such as Rogue or Death Knight.

    I guess the ironic thing is that I typically do very competitive numbers in my own raid =/ But - that's not enough reason to really justify a raid spot. Do I just have too much hope for us in 5.2? Are our moments of "utility" just too "anything I can do another class can do better"? Or are other people just mislead?

  2. #2
    I have no doubt that Windwalkers will be more than welcome. Windwalker DPS is in the upper half of specs and that will only increase in multi-dot type situations with SEF. We're basically the Affliction Warlocks of 5.2. As a DPS, Windwalkers are great for 5.2.

    Unfortunately, as a melee, Windwalkers have by far the least utility of any melee class and melee is somewhat limited on certain fights. However, with target swapping being extremely easy for WW, being very mobile, and having good damage reductions could make having a Windwalker instead of another ranged not be as bad as having any other melee, so I don't really see anything prohibiting WW from being invited to raids.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    I've had a few arguments back and forth so far about whether or not Windwalker will have a raid spot in 5.2. After my own testing, I have found that our numbers are nothing short of competitive, and the fact that we now have something to "fill the hole" (per se) on fights with 2-3 targets will make us much more desirable.

    I've heard a few people in high-end raiding guilds state that they want to have at least 1-2 Windwalkers on their roster - though no more than that. To me, that indicates that we are becoming a strong class. Then there are others who state that our 5.2 numbers mean nothing, and we will be nerfed to the ground if we are able to out-damage rogues - making us less desirable, as we would be a hybrid out-damaging a pure DPS class.

    Here are my thoughts:

    • Monk itself is a hybrid class in that one can choose 3 different roles (tank, healer, DPS) but the Windwalker role itself is not especially hybrid. Most other hybrid roles are able to use a semi-strong heal (such as Healing Surge, Flash of Light, et cetera) to do quick "off heals" or are able to turn on a buff (Blood Presence, Righteous Fury) in order to tank in a ten second gap (or so). Windwalker can taunt, but not necessarily hold aggro, and our Chi Wave is arguably weaker than, for example, a Ret Paladin's spammable Flash of Light. Because we do not contain that utility, I consider our specialization closer to a "pure" class than Mistweaver (which can damage while heal) or Brewmaster (which can switch to Stance of the Fierce Tiger, though they do more damage in their tank stance). As I mentioned to someone in a raid - having a healing or tank spec does not give a class's spec "utility" - because having them switch is not bringing that class.
    • Because our offhealing is arguably weak, and our offtanking (while decent) is more comparable to a Rogue's evasion tanking, I feel that Windwalkers should be able to do competitive numbers. We do not have a raid-wide cooldown such as Skull Banner or Stormlash Totem, and as I mentioned, our hybrid functionality is much weaker than that of other classes.
    • Of course, there are PvP concerns. But then - even Rogues have recuperate.

    Overall, I'm not sure how fair or unfair my assessment is. It does enter into utility - which is something I'm attempting to avoid, but let's face it - most Windwalker discussions come down to that. I also feel that Windwalkers are incredibly underrepresented in PvE, including high-end content where I find many (including myself) benched in favor of another class such as Rogue or Death Knight.

    I guess the ironic thing is that I typically do very competitive numbers in my own raid =/ But - that's not enough reason to really justify a raid spot. Do I just have too much hope for us in 5.2? Are our moments of "utility" just too "anything I can do another class can do better"? Or are other people just mislead?
    Yeah I agree with a lot of concerns you bring up. My main gripes to spec were a non existent 2-3 target cleave, and the whole tigereye brew stacking before fights. It is completely annoying to stack that thing before every fight, and usually you don't have full stacks during any fight when progressing. SEF seems really sick though and I'm happy about that.

  4. #4
    This "hybrid vs. pure" argument hasn't meant a thing since Cataclysm. These people are stuck in the past. It doesn't affect any sort of balancing unless it gets to an extremely stupid level like Holy "DPS", which is a separate problem anyway. Personally, hybrid means next to nothing to me in WoW compared to what it means in other video games. Every spec in WoW is clearly like its own class, and they should be looked at as such. It's foolish to look at them as just specializations.

    Anyway, a big problem with Windwalker is that the Crit buff is laughably easy to get. In Beta, Legacy of the White Tiger was a Mastery buff. It should have stayed that way, but I guess they didn't like them bringing a useful buff or something. Bringing the physical vulnerability debuff instead of the healing debuff would be great for raid composition and the class as well.

    Having limited access to Stance of the Sturdy Ox could go a long way for Windwalker play too. I don't understand why every other potential tank class can have access to at least the form/stance/presence in a limited way, but not Windwalkers. I'm not asking for Stagger and crit immunity, just the damage reduction and threat modifier. Obviously restrict Rising Sun Kick and Fists of Fury to Stance of the Fierce Tiger to make it like a Feral Druid being in Bear Form.
    Last edited by Senka; 2013-02-12 at 04:20 AM.

  5. #5
    Moderator Alysmera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmgbro View Post
    Yeah I agree with a lot of concerns you bring up. My main gripes to spec were a non existent 2-3 target cleave, and the whole tigereye brew stacking before fights. It is completely annoying to stack that thing before every fight, and usually you don't have full stacks during any fight when progressing. SEF seems really sick though and I'm happy about that.
    The limited amount of testing I was able to do on PTR showed that stacks happened relatively fast - much quicker than live, just like my math's suggested.

    @Totaltotemic yah, the majority of the pushback I've received when bringing up that WW will be strong in 5.2 (especially numbers-wise) is that there's "no way" they'd be released with comparable DPS as - for example - a rogue, simply because rogues are a pure DPS class. I guess I can see that side of it - what else does a rogue have going for it, after all? Yet at the same time, it seems like Blizzard has been pushing for all specs of every class to be viable (after all, Ret was in a pretty bad spot pre-wrath, and our #1 DPS during OS 3D was a ret [granted, we had no DPS DKs at the time]) In short - I don't see having a hybrid as a top-3 DPS being out of the question.

    I do agree (of course) that we do still lack in utility. We are being patched for the 2-3 target situations, and I agree that we're extremely mobile.

    I guess we'll "wait and see". I just don't see a major nerf happening this late into PTR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Senka View Post
    This "hybrid vs. pure" argument hasn't meant a thing since Cataclysm. These people are stuck in the past. It doesn't affect any sort balancing unless it gets to an extremely stupid level like Holy "DPS", which is a separate problem anyway.
    I'd argue even as far as it not having been a thing since Wrath.

  6. #6
    Our offhealing was fairly decent before the lvl 30 talent nerfs on the PTR. Now it's arguably weaker than on Live.

  7. #7
    I don't understand why your guild is benching you for say another rogue or DK. This must be down to one of two things: 1. The officers in your guild are misinformed about how good a decent WW monk can be (great mobility, best melee target swapping, amazing damage reduction CDs etc.) and are under the impression that WW is bad right now. As monk is a new class I can see this being a possibility. 2. You do not perform as well as you should in raids. I don't know if this is true, and I can't verify it by looking at logs because your guilds logs privately for whatever reason. The only time this expac I could see high level guilds benching WWs is on cleave progression (Garalon for example), but this won't be an issue in 5.2

    Not sure why you are bothered about the hybrid tax, or "off healing" (WW is a dps spec, off healing is irrelevant). Judging from the ptr right now WW is in a very strong area. Whether it becomes "OP" on live and needs a nerf we will have to see, but I wouldn't worry about that

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    At least in 25m where there are a couple 3 tank fight's I think one thing is overlooked is that BrM and WW gear up the same. I think they like the idea of being able to get a tank highly geared that can swap over on the single tank fights and challenge a lot of the groups full time DPS for damage done. This works both ways if you have a well geared WW that has taken the time to learn BrM.

    Usually for single tank stuff lately I've called dibs a week or two just to get a BrM WoL ranking in then go in as DPS and try for those while the tanks with weaker OS gear levels tank instead. With the changes in 5.2 I doubt I'll mind running between both specs very much at least for any solo tank fights.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  9. #9
    Moderator Alysmera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finally View Post
    I don't understand why your guild is benching you for say another rogue or DK. This must be down to one of two things: 1. The officers in your guild are misinformed about how good a decent WW monk can be (great mobility, best melee target swapping, amazing damage reduction CDs etc.) and are under the impression that WW is bad right now. As monk is a new class I can see this being a possibility. 2. You do not perform as well as you should in raids. I don't know if this is true, and I can't verify it by looking at logs because your guilds logs privately for whatever reason. The only time this expac I could see high level guilds benching WWs is on cleave progression (Garalon for example), but this won't be an issue in 5.2
    I'm going to assume it's more the former (that they believe WW is still weak); they even had an argument not too long ago with me about whether using Fists of Fury is padding (FRUSTRATION).

    Yep - we log privately simply because we had issues with high-end guilds poaching our raiders. In addition, our Guild Leader believes in placing emphasis on performance (survivability) rather than damage - though plenty of us could rank. Yes, I've had my share of stupid deaths, but I would not have passed my trial if they were numerous or hindered progression. Admittedly, too, when I initially joined, my numbers were nothing short of terrible. But then, I had a disparity of around 5 ilevels between myself and the other melee, and I was using a 2H. I've since fixed that and have shown some competitive numbers.

    And yah - I opted to be benched on early Garalon progression. But that was quite some time ago.

    And, yes - my numbers are quite good. Though, at least for Sha, it can be very hard to tell unless every person in the raid were logging. However, on fights such as Lei Shi, I am typically within the top 3 (though, this week I was beaten by our enhancement shaman and two hunters by less than 1K. Augh!)


    Quote Originally Posted by Finally View Post
    Not sure why you are bothered about the hybrid tax, or "off healing" (WW is a dps spec, off healing is irrelevant). Judging from the ptr right now WW is in a very strong area. Whether it becomes "OP" on live and needs a nerf we will have to see, but I wouldn't worry about that
    Many of our strats take advantage of offheals so that we can drop a healer in favor of another DPS.


    @SurrealNight: I am the (fifth) offspec tank as far as backups go, but their original brewmaster has apparently comvinced them that BrM is "weak" as a tanking spec. Currently we're working on Sha of Fear H with 2 DK tanks, a warrior tank, and the Brewmaster tank.



    Dunno, otherwise trying to stick with it. At least I do (for the most part) get to see the fights, so there's that - but I guess I'm the person who would trade purpz just to see a new boss go down =/ I really, really like progression above all else in the game, but I also feel compelled to re-roll back to my shaman or rogue - but I'd much rather not.

  10. #10
    Sounds like a very strange guild alysmera :P I get the dropping healers for more dps, but if you are replaced by another "pure" dps then our healing doesn't matter that much. With all the damage mitigation we have we need a lot less healing than say a DK which is also a consideration.

    My advice to you would be to stick with WW for 5.2. I think you would be a fool to reroll away from it now just as the spec is looking really strong. If you are a good player then I would be very surprised if you get benched once for another dps in ToT.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    I'm going to assume it's more the former (that they believe WW is still weak); they even had an argument not too long ago with me about whether using Fists of Fury is padding (FRUSTRATION).
    You can't be serious...

  12. #12
    Moderator Alysmera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    You can't be serious...
    I'll vent about it later, lol. :/

    @Finally yah. I've never loved a spec as much as WW - I liked my shaman and my rogue (and even my druid) for the tiers I played them (6+ years as shaman).

    Guess it feels nice to have some reassurance that I'm not crazy for suggesting WW is strong and will continue to be strong, but it's really frustrating trying to explain that to people. Perhaps that was the point of the thread - I hate to think that I'm the only person living in my own bubble who thinks WW should have a place in 5.2. I figure we'll see what happens in ToT...

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    I've had a few arguments back and forth so far about whether or not Windwalker will have a raid spot in 5.2. After my own testing, I have found that our numbers are nothing short of competitive, and the fact that we now have something to "fill the hole" (per se) on fights with 2-3 targets will make us much more desirable.

    I've heard a few people in high-end raiding guilds state that they want to have at least 1-2 Windwalkers on their roster - though no more than that. To me, that indicates that we are becoming a strong class. Then there are others who state that our 5.2 numbers mean nothing, and we will be nerfed to the ground if we are able to out-damage rogues - making us less desirable, as we would be a hybrid out-damaging a pure DPS class.

    Here are my thoughts:

    • Monk itself is a hybrid class in that one can choose 3 different roles (tank, healer, DPS) but the Windwalker role itself is not especially hybrid. Most other hybrid roles are able to use a semi-strong heal (such as Healing Surge, Flash of Light, et cetera) to do quick "off heals" or are able to turn on a buff (Blood Presence, Righteous Fury) in order to tank in a ten second gap (or so). Windwalker can taunt, but not necessarily hold aggro, and our Chi Wave is arguably weaker than, for example, a Ret Paladin's spammable Flash of Light. Because we do not contain that utility, I consider our specialization closer to a "pure" class than Mistweaver (which can damage while heal) or Brewmaster (which can switch to Stance of the Fierce Tiger, though they do more damage in their tank stance). As I mentioned to someone in a raid - having a healing or tank spec does not give a class's spec "utility" - because having them switch is not bringing that class.
    • Because our offhealing is arguably weak, and our offtanking (while decent) is more comparable to a Rogue's evasion tanking, I feel that Windwalkers should be able to do competitive numbers. We do not have a raid-wide cooldown such as Skull Banner or Stormlash Totem, and as I mentioned, our hybrid functionality is much weaker than that of other classes.
    • Of course, there are PvP concerns. But then - even Rogues have recuperate.

    Overall, I'm not sure how fair or unfair my assessment is. It does enter into utility - which is something I'm attempting to avoid, but let's face it - most Windwalker discussions come down to that. I also feel that Windwalkers are incredibly underrepresented in PvE, including high-end content where I find many (including myself) benched in favor of another class such as Rogue or Death Knight.

    I guess the ironic thing is that I typically do very competitive numbers in my own raid =/ But - that's not enough reason to really justify a raid spot. Do I just have too much hope for us in 5.2? Are our moments of "utility" just too "anything I can do another class can do better"? Or are other people just mislead?
    I re-rolled from Ret to Windwlaker after 6 years as a Ret, It's been interesting but I tell every Ret I know the Windwalker spec to me feels like what Blizzard wanted with Holy Power for Ret but failed to achieve. As for Raid spots in 5.2 my damage is competitive now and will go up in 5.2 so I have no doubt that Windwalker will clearly have a raid spot.

    Here is how I see Windwalkers after playing one since the beginning of January and completing all current Heroic content.

    Utility - We don't bring much of it, Leg Sweep on adds that need to be controlled is about the extent of what we bring. But I don't feel like the class needs to bring utility to earn that raid spot. For a very long time I walked tat fine line with Ret and I don't feel like any Raid Leader with a brain will bench a Windwalker in 5.2 with my current ilevel being 508 I can stick with not all but most classes that are full BiS.

    5.2 will bring us just up to the competition level we need to be in, I do suspect we will see some nerfs after 5.2 it is common for buffs to lead to nerfs and I'm very very familiar with it. That being said if you know how to play the game and are a competent capable raider you should have your Raid spot now and should not lose it in 5.2 for any reason.
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  14. #14
    Moderator Alysmera's Avatar
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    Req -

    The major issue that's coming up is that they want to stack certain classes, MOSTLY DoT classes. That's not an indication of me being a bad raider, so much as... me not having diseases that can be spread. Considering that I typically am one of our top Melees after switching to dual wield, I'll go out on a limb and say that damage is not the be-all end-all for my specific group (plus, I know them pretty well in that regard). And I would have been told if I were dying too much (given that we emphasize survivability above all else). I mean, if you had two competent raiders who weren't dying, one was 494 (not me) and one was 502, but the 494 could do a multi-dot on adds that could potentially one-shot a raid member, who would you bring? There's no real correct answer to that question, especially in 25M. But, what's done is done.

    As for what you said in ret vs. windwalker, that's precisely how I felt when I switched. It had everything I loved about my cat/rogue/shaman - and none of the things I hated (though, we did debut with slightly lower numbers than we should have).

    We'll see what 5.2 brings. As has been discussed previously, it's not unprecedented for a hybrid class to bring incredible DPS. Our Ret paladin during early Sarth + 3 attempts during first tier in Wrath drove that point home (granted, he was an amazing player). On PTR, my observation has been that we have been up and down, but mostly up - and our downs have only been downs in terms of our ups. I think 5.2 will see us absolutely smashing the meters.

    Also - ret brings devo aura, which is pretty helpful, in addition to BoP. We don't run with a ret currently, though - but we do have a holy who is always happy to swap.

    Edit - forgot to add. We actually threw our logs up for around 5 minutes as public. Many ranks were to be had; I ranked top 200 on nearly every fight. I don't think damage is my problem

  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    Req -

    The major issue that's coming up is that they want to stack certain classes, MOSTLY DoT classes. That's not an indication of me being a bad raider, so much as... me not having diseases that can be spread. Considering that I typically am one of our top Melees after switching to dual wield, I'll go out on a limb and say that damage is not the be-all end-all for my specific group (plus, I know them pretty well in that regard). And I would have been told if I were dying too much (given that we emphasize survivability above all else). I mean, if you had two competent raiders who weren't dying, one was 494 (not me) and one was 502, but the 494 could do a multi-dot on adds that could potentially one-shot a raid member, who would you bring? There's no real correct answer to that question, especially in 25M. But, what's done is done.

    As for what you said in ret vs. windwalker, that's precisely how I felt when I switched. It had everything I loved about my cat/rogue/shaman - and none of the things I hated (though, we did debut with slightly lower numbers than we should have).

    We'll see what 5.2 brings. As has been discussed previously, it's not unprecedented for a hybrid class to bring incredible DPS. Our Ret paladin during early Sarth + 3 attempts during first tier in Wrath drove that point home (granted, he was an amazing player). On PTR, my observation has been that we have been up and down, but mostly up - and our downs have only been downs in terms of our ups. I think 5.2 will see us absolutely smashing the meters.

    Also - ret brings devo aura, which is pretty helpful, in addition to BoP. We don't run with a ret currently, though - but we do have a holy who is always happy to swap.

    Edit - forgot to add. We actually threw our logs up for around 5 minutes as public. Many ranks were to be had; I ranked top 200 on nearly every fight. I don't think damage is my problem
    I understand completely coming from a class that had a niche such as Ret but from all the testing I have done I don't feel we need a utility roll to be viable. Now I completely understand that is a guild based decision as I know guilds right now that say Windwalkers aren't viable but they are just inexperienced or don't understand where they do shine.

    I still think we will be ok and our damage will make up for not having small amounts of utility.
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    Moderator Alysmera's Avatar
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    I agree with you, and that's kind of the conclusion I've come to is that even a few higher-end raid comps just don't know the true strengths of a WW.

    I wrote in a blog post recently (muahaha, not linking) that some raids do place too much emphasis on utility. I can see that emphasis being useful in a 10M setting, where comp space is limited, but I think the more relaxed roster requirements for 25M - even in cutting-edge guilds (meaning, Top-50) - ought to have more than one Windwalker, to a total of 2. Granted, my raid has never had issues with enrage timers, but I still am of the opinion that a DPS's main raid utility is just that - to DPS.

    There's a reason why most guilds are looking to bring 2 WW and maybe 1 ret into 5.2, or at least the ones I have spoken to. Early progression pushes the limits of our gear - the more high-number classes and people that are brought in, the less stress on a raid. That's why so many top guilds gear tanks, and then DPS, and then healers last - it helps us push hard modes faster.

    We will see what happens.

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    I agree with you, and that's kind of the conclusion I've come to is that even a few higher-end raid comps just don't know the true strengths of a WW.

    I wrote in a blog post recently (muahaha, not linking) that some raids do place too much emphasis on utility. I can see that emphasis being useful in a 10M setting, where comp space is limited, but I think the more relaxed roster requirements for 25M - even in cutting-edge guilds (meaning, Top-50) - ought to have more than one Windwalker, to a total of 2. Granted, my raid has never had issues with enrage timers, but I still am of the opinion that a DPS's main raid utility is just that - to DPS.

    There's a reason why most guilds are looking to bring 2 WW and maybe 1 ret into 5.2, or at least the ones I have spoken to. Early progression pushes the limits of our gear - the more high-number classes and people that are brought in, the less stress on a raid. That's why so many top guilds gear tanks, and then DPS, and then healers last - it helps us push hard modes faster.

    We will see what happens.
    Yup I myself see the utility of a Windwalker in current content on some fights, Will of the Emperor being a prime example some guilds stack mages, some stack dk's some use druids and some use warlocks. The stun and control of the adds on Heroic is the biggest issue and as a Windwalker I alternate stuns with one of the other classes. So while our DPS is 350K on the pull like a Ret or Boomkin my end result is still in the top 5-7 against 100% BiS players and I'm quite a ways from 100% BiS so I feel this is somewhat of the same situation I went through with Ret in TBC.

    I don't think it will be as hard for Windwalkers as it was for Ret as the game has progressed quite a bit since those days.
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  18. #18
    Moderator Alysmera's Avatar
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    I actually went Brewmaster for our first kill of Will. Lawdy, that feels like forever ago, but you can literally soak every single spark and take almost no damage with Guard. We only had one DK at the time, so me and him tanked both of the strengths.

    I guess with WW you can do the same thing with Zen Med and Diffuse Magic, but not every single one.

    Granted, Will is just one of those fights we killed once and never want to do again. But we will to make sure all of our raiders have their Cutting Edge achievements, now that everything is on farm.

    If your monk is the one in your signature, my only complaint with your quite a ways from 100% BiS setup are the tier items you are using The difference between a MSV BiS-monk and a T14 BiS monk I've noticed are pretty high. I myself do a sustained 130K under normal circumstances, with maybe a 10-20K delta depending on fight mechanics and how procs align. Sure, our rogues burst at something like 300K, but - for example - on Lei Shi I beat every one of them, on Elegon I can easily top the melee, and let's not even get me started on the kinds of numbers our class can see in Vizier Zor'lok. We're sustained, and that's why I love this spec. Sure, we aren't bursty - but I think with proper TeB usage, in a DPS check fight such as Spine (or, arguably, Ambershaper - bursting down constructs), using our TeB stacks in conjunction with Energizing Brew and Synapse Springs makes us useful.

    But try explaining that to a ranged-heavy raid that only sees the value in multi-dotters, cleaving, and people who burst 300-400K.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Senka View Post
    This "hybrid vs. pure" argument hasn't meant a thing since Cataclysm. These people are stuck in the past.
    That's the entire problem right there.. that's why you will NEVER convince some people...

  20. #20
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alysmera View Post
    I actually went Brewmaster for our first kill of Will. Lawdy, that feels like forever ago, but you can literally soak every single spark and take almost no damage with Guard. We only had one DK at the time, so me and him tanked both of the strengths.

    I guess with WW you can do the same thing with Zen Med and Diffuse Magic, but not every single one.

    Granted, Will is just one of those fights we killed once and never want to do again. But we will to make sure all of our raiders have their Cutting Edge achievements, now that everything is on farm.

    If your monk is the one in your signature, my only complaint with your quite a ways from 100% BiS setup are the tier items you are using The difference between a MSV BiS-monk and a T14 BiS monk I've noticed are pretty high. I myself do a sustained 130K under normal circumstances, with maybe a 10-20K delta depending on fight mechanics and how procs align. Sure, our rogues burst at something like 300K, but - for example - on Lei Shi I beat every one of them, on Elegon I can easily top the melee, and let's not even get me started on the kinds of numbers our class can see in Vizier Zor'lok. We're sustained, and that's why I love this spec. Sure, we aren't bursty - but I think with proper TeB usage, in a DPS check fight such as Spine (or, arguably, Ambershaper - bursting down constructs), using our TeB stacks in conjunction with Energizing Brew and Synapse Springs makes us useful.

    But try explaining that to a ranged-heavy raid that only sees the value in multi-dotters, cleaving, and people who burst 300-400K.
    Well we're farming Protectors hard mode and I'm next in line for the Leggings, Amber-Shaper he doesn't like us at all and refuses to drop Prot tokens. That being said I hit 90 a little over a month ago and my first Heroic raid was 1/16 so for my gear I'm not doing to terrible there are certainly pieces I would love to swap out but I got started late so i'm fine with that in the end I'll eventually get what I need.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

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