Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    [HELP] Assessing our Monk Heal

    Hi guys,

    I tried to read stuff up about Monks, but I think without actually playing the class it is not so easy to find tipps. On our 10 man raid (5/16HC) we have a pala heal, a disc (me) and a shamy heal. The shamy was constantly lacking performance so we decided together that he could give his monk alt a try. We geared him and he was on the bench (Standby) for most of our heroic fights. Yesterday we took him with us on Blade Lord HC (nobody else was here), and the performance was again - well let's sain not satisfactory.

    So here is the log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=2955&e=3400

    I saw other Monks on WoL doing Chi builder/finishers at this fight. So this would be possible (regarding the debuff) when watching the timers..

    Others cast Chi Wave or Renewing mists about double that often.

    Any tips, advices?
    Last edited by samsine; 2013-02-13 at 12:31 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by samsine View Post
    Hi guys,

    I tried to read stuff up about Monks, but I think without actually playing the class it is not so easy to find tipps. On our 10 man raid (5/16HC) we have a pala heal, a disc (me) and a shamy heal. The shamy was constantly lacking performance so we decided together that he could give his monk alt a try. We geared him and he was on the bench (Standby) for most of our heroic fights. Yesterday we took him with us on Blade Lord HC (nobody else was here), and the performance was again - well let's sain not satisfactory.

    So here is the log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=2955&e=3400

    I saw other Monks on WoL doing Chi builder/finishers at this fight. So this would be possible (regarding the debuff) when watching the timers..

    Others cast Chi Wave or Renewing mists about double that often.

    Any tips, advices?
    Unless the performance was drastically low, it wasn't the shamans fault, 10 man is really hard for shamans to heal specially with a skilless op class.

    BUT ON MONK TOPIC

    His Renewing is really low, if he is heroic raiding it should be much higher uptime, before tornadoes he could easily start stacking renewing mists on everyone at least 6+ people thunder focus brew and refresh everyone with renewing with uplift, and get the rest without buff with renewing regulatory.

    With correct cordination he could be using chi burst yes, but 10 man is harder to hit enough people to make it better than wave on cd.

    I would say if he fixed his renewing mists uptime he will be way better off, that is ALWAYS my top heal unless its not a very heavy aoe fight.

  3. #3
    Field Marshal Cathaia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    97
    Quote Originally Posted by velspine View Post
    With correct cordination he could be using chi burst yes, but 10 man is harder to hit enough people to make it better than wave on cd.
    Especially keep in mind that Chi Wave is a smart heal, and you are able to ReM blanket 10man really easily, so Uplift will be dominant either way. Wave is the tool for that extra bit of Tank/Melee healing during phases where you know you won't have predictable huge AOE damage coming in.

    One thing that generally bugs me when I see new Mistweavers lately, especially from people who play(ed) another healing class (exception being possibly "oldschool" A&A Disc Priests, but for obvious reasons of dps-healing), is the approach to play the MW like a "classic" healer, i.e. taking the passive role of only casting Heals and not utilizing that second major part what this spec was designed around - Eminence healing, Melee'ing. Jab is a guaranteed Chi generator while Soothing Mist will always be a lottery - the only reason why I'd use Soothing e.g. is to put up bursty healing on someone in specific phases (Tsulong!). We don't get treated as Ranged on boss mechanics.
    Generally fitting a Monk into a 10 is not that easy either, as so much of our strengths are based on pure throughput which I see in your group being efficiently negated with 2 absorb-producing healers. Also, we are not strong enough to validate setting up a healer group just to make our class being highly efficient, but I'd surely not take a Monk as 3rd healer in 10 with a HPally and a Disc - not because the spec is bad or anything, just because your healers on spot no1 and no2 won't give the Monk the room to play at full potential. I'd always go with a Shaman as 3rd in that setup, even if it may just be for the offspec . But as Velspine also mentioned, you cannot expect huge numbers from a Resto as 3rd, or any other healer really with your combo up front. Absorbs will always make pure throughput healers struggle on the meters - but then again, healing meters shouldn't matter that much as long as stuff gets nailed.
    Still not getting any younger!

  4. #4
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winnipeg, MB, CA
    Posts
    283
    Mentioned about: you can't expect crazy numbers from a retro active healer when you have a very strong proactive healer and a snipe+absorb healer ESPECIALLY during a fight that requires 0 constant raid healing. He's keeping his numbers up just from EvM just for something to heal!

    Also, why the hell is he not standing in melee and fistweaving? Not a single jab/TP/SZ on boss? He's not using expel harm enough (used it twice). That's unacceptable. It's our lowest cost chi generating skill. 0 revivals? 0 cocoons?

    Now survivability. He used Zen Med once, 0 dampen harm, 0 Fort Brew, 0 TFT. What's his T90 talent? I didn't see Chi Torpedo healing, Xuen damage or RJW buff gained.

    He should be using Chi Torpedo IMO and healing the group after an unseen strike however I can see arguements for Xuen as well.

    Did this guy buy his monk off of EBay? His skill is absolutely garbage not using some of a MWs key abilities.

  5. #5
    Old God Hyve's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Great Britain
    Posts
    10,040
    Having a quick scan, there are serious issues with his basic knowledge of his skills.

    Soothing Mist & Surging Mist really shouldn't be that high on his healing spells, and there isn't really Uplift there at all. His Renewing Mists healing is also very low. Essentially, on my monk my healing meters showed;

    1) Uplift
    2) Renewing Mist
    3) Enveloping Mist

    Not every monk is the same, and I'm by no means the best monk healer (Not playing it anymore) to make judgement, but he really needs to sit down and re-read the spell tooltips of his spells and talents.

    Edit #1: I've found his armoury, and from my experience, his reforging, gems & talents are pretty poor. He shouldn't take Rushing Jade Wind, as for the Chi Cost, you'd be better getting of Uplift(s), and using Invoke Xuen (Both Healing & Damage Cooldown) or Chi Torpedo, and heal while he moves.

    He is also reforging out of Haste, which is pretty sweet for Mistweavers, and reforging into Mastery, which is a nice heal, but is far to reliant on people running into the Orbs, which is not ideal!

    Also, he has a lot of Spirit Gems, which I found in my experience wasn't needed on my Mistweaver. Having a higher Crit Rating and spending more Chi increased by Healing & Mana Regen (Crit Chance = Chance to generate another Tea Stack).

    Edit #2: Running his character through AskMrRobot.com (http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/eu/gilneas/kungpei) shows almost everything needs to be reforged, re-gemmed and re-enchanted. He seriously shouldn't be doing Heroic Raids with that lack of understanding ...

  6. #6
    Thanks for the quick responses!

    We don't get treated as Ranged on boss mechanics.
    Meaning he won't get Dot Debuff at Blade Lord, or Windbombs at Wind Lord?
    If yes, I am actually thinking that's something the MONK not ME(!) should find out....

    We gave him a new chance with the Monk, because he was unhappy with the Shaman. It's ok if the performance is below the other, but yesterday I had the feeling (look at the logs), that there was low value added with his presence.

    Thanks for pointing out stuff like:
    - Essentials cooldowns not used
    - Renewig to low
    - No Jab/Melee Stuff used

    Even if the outcome here from your comments is kinda sad, thanks still anyways.
    Last edited by samsine; 2013-02-13 at 03:46 PM.

  7. #7
    Old God Hyve's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Great Britain
    Posts
    10,040
    Quote Originally Posted by samsine View Post
    - No Jab/Melee Stuff used
    Check my response above for some more information, but know that using Melee abilities isn't essential to be a top quality Misteaver. It'll help, but it really isn't needed on many bosses.

  8. #8
    Field Marshal Cathaia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    97
    Quote Originally Posted by samsine View Post
    Meaning he won't get Dot Debuff at Blade Lord, or Windbombs at Wind Lord?
    Well, if he stands close to someone getting windstepped, nothing will save him. But yes, Mistweavers should not get targetted by anything like that.
    Still not getting any younger!

  9. #9
    One more thing: He is always complaing/telling us to run through this little green orbs. We'll I at least try to support him, but our damage dealers don't like that idea. Are the green little orbs really that essential?
    I am playing a priest, and nobody cared about my Lightwell (before the glyph).

    Edit #2: Running his character through AskMrRobot.com (http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/eu/gilneas/kungpei) shows almost everything needs to be reforged, re-gemmed and re-enchanted. He seriously shouldn't be doing Heroic Raids with that lack of understanding ...
    Thanks for that info! Could have done that myself, should be thinking more before I post!

    Thanks all for the input!
    Last edited by samsine; 2013-02-13 at 02:54 PM.

  10. #10
    Old God Hyve's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Great Britain
    Posts
    10,040
    Quote Originally Posted by samsine View Post
    One more thing: He is always complaing/telling us to run through this little green orbs. We'll I at least try to support him, but our damage dealers don't like that idea. Are the green little orbs really that essential?
    I am playing a priest, and nobody cared about my Lightwell (before the glyph).
    You should move through them on movement phases, if you can, without sacrificing damage, but a Mistweaver should not rely on them to heal you. On some fights, I would spawn loads of them, and people would run through them and heal, by mistake.

    He has WAY to much mastery! Have him (or tell him) to look at the post I put above, and make him run his character through AskMrRobot.com. He clearly hasn't a clue about Mistweavers though.

  11. #11
    Field Marshal Cathaia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    97
    The Mastery is nothing I would ever put focus on, especially not in 10. Of course, the Orbs heal, and spamming Healing Spheres directly on a target is a very effective strategy of spot healing. From experience, most of the Healing produced by Mastery-created orbs is splash healing from orbs popping up on someone who is just standing there and soaking them up. At best I got something around 15%'ish of my healing done by those orbs in 10 (results in 25 may vary to make Mastery more appealing in some cases).

    Which leads me to the obvious: Do NOT compare strategies valid for Mistweavers in 25man (which most guides are set up about, especially some of the horribly outdated ones) to 10man. 10 doesn't offer much room for Chi Burst, rarely the room for Spinning Crane Kick, and even more rarely the room for Mastery stacking on gear, as the splash healing is too random, and on 10 you are more likely to run into mana issues due to not having a high amount of Tides/Hymns/Innervates.
    Still not getting any younger!

  12. #12
    From a raidleaders perspective? Is there any chance he will figure all the stuff out you mentioned? Would you give him another shot? (We normally are a raid which does not get rid of people, we always try to find solutions...)

  13. #13
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Winnipeg, MB, CA
    Posts
    283
    You looking into how to improve will only help him. It's unfortunate that he's not the one making this thread TBH.

    Lots of room for improvement and there are a lot of helpful talented MWs here to help.

    I posted a list of spells a monk that a monk in melee range will not get hit by on page 7 or 8; and yes, that includes windstep and windbomb

  14. #14
    Old God Hyve's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Great Britain
    Posts
    10,040
    Quote Originally Posted by samsine View Post
    From a raidleaders perspective? Is there any chance he will figure all the stuff out you mentioned? Would you give him another shot? (We normally are a raid which does not get rid of people, we always try to find solutions...)
    I'm always open to giving people a chance, but they need to put in the dedication and commitment. Direct him to this post, show him the sites / services we've used, and see if there is an improvement. If there isn't, or they get offended or upset, then bin them, because you don't want people who can't handle their emotions, or commit to their guild fully.

  15. #15
    I would definitely say give him another try. I play the DPS / 3rd healer role in my guilds 10 man group and I've definitely found that sometimes it takes a couple runs to figure out the play style that works best for a particular fight. Most healing classes you can play pretty much the same for every fight, but MW requires completely different play styles on different fights. For blade lord in particular, I glyph uplift for phase 2 which means I heal very conservatively during phase 1 so that I have as much mana as possible going into the tornado phase. Revival is also HUGE for phase 2, it should be coordinated with other cooldowns but there is no reason not to take advantage of it. Long story short, we are pretty lack-luster in phase 1, more-so I'm sure with a disc priest in the group, but in P2 we might be one of the strongest healers, at least in 10 man.

    As far as healing spheres go, you should never sacrifice dps to run over them. They should be grabbed either during a movement phase as needed or in a health pot / health stone type of scenario where you are really low on health and they might save your life (a dead character does 0 dps).

  16. #16
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,012
    I'm going to take a different approach here, since a lot of Mistweavers have already suggested the basics (jab for chi, eminence healing, keep renewing mist up, monks can stay in melee and not get the DOT/wind bombs)...

    Look at the charts for the three healers on the WOL parse; two things strike me as problematic immediately:

    1. His healing barely jumps up after the Unseen Strikes. Sure, the disc is covering a lot of it, but you can see the paladin kept up with him and there were phases where the paladin was pushing higher healing, and the monk healer didn't really do anything different.

    2. He did basically 0 healing in phase 2. What was he doing? Seems like he didn't get to the other side ever. That's a huge problem that has nothing to do with MWing.

    Oh, I'll touch on one issue about gearing, since I saw some iffy information earlier:
    Haste only to 3145 in Tiger Stance (4718 in serpent) to get the extra two ticks of Renewing Mist. Don't push it any higher.
    After that spirit and crit. Mastery is going to be a weaker stat in 10 man, but haste after 3145 is worse.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Check my response above for some more information, but know that using Melee abilities isn't essential to be a top quality Misteaver. It'll help, but it really isn't needed on many bosses.
    Yes. Yes it is.
    old mistweaver probably still better than u

  18. #18
    why would you bring a third healer anyway? you seem to be doing fine without.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorixis View Post
    why would you bring a third healer anyway? you seem to be doing fine without.
    Didn't had anybody else that night available. Monk can't play melee dps / hasn't gear for that, and our monk can't 2heal that fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by DirewolfX View Post
    2. He did basically 0 healing in phase 2. What was he doing? Seems like he didn't get to the other side ever. That's a huge problem that has nothing to do with MWing.
    We told him not to run at all and wait for the incoming people which are running back. Thing was when were doing normal modes, he couldn't handle the running, so we decided in let him stay and wait for our return.

  20. #20
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,012
    Quote Originally Posted by samsine View Post
    We told him not to run at all and wait for the incoming people which are running back. Thing was when were doing normal modes, he couldn't handle the running, so we decided in let him stay and wait for our return.
    This points to a major hand-eye coordination problem that is likely going to affect how he performs at everything he does, whether he is a monk or a shaman. He should run it frequently on LFR to practice the wind phase until he can do it easily (I'm not sure if the wind stuff is any harder on normal/HC besides the damage the boss is doing, but it can't hurt).

    You should also talk with him about how he has his keybinds setup... does he keyboard turn? Does he have strafe bound in a convenient spot? Is he a clicker? Does he have either mouseover macros or a similar mouseover add-on like clique for fast healing? What kind of raid frames does he use? What does his UI look like? Is there too much clutter blocking his view of 3D world? Are essential UI elements in places where he can see them easily while still being able to maintain raid awareness? What is computer hardware and internet connection like? Does he lag due to latency or poor frame rates? Does he have a good mouse and keyboard?

    I think the gist of what I'm getting at is this: He was bad on his Shaman (per your testimony). He is bad on his Monk. I don't think merely learning Monk mechanics better will be enough to get him on par for your heroic progression. There are probably things he can fundamentally improve with his WoW gameplay that will make him better at any class/spec, and once he addresses those he will start performing significantly better.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •