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  1. #1

    My guild needs help

    Made a new MMO acc so my guildies won't recognize me for writing this.

    My guild have severe L2P issues. Its just a few members who keep making the same mistakes on progress and we got no replacements to take their spot.
    What is a good motivation or method to make them improve? Its 4-5 people who keep dying to the same mechanic over and over again, they forget their role on bosses like Garalon HC kiting and Protector HC stack soaking.

    It makes us wipe and keeps us back just because of a few people. Recruiting is hard because we only get applies from players who are even worse.

    Any guild master here who can give me some advice? thanks

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Needguildhelp View Post
    Made a new MMO acc so my guildies won't recognize me for writing this.

    My guild have severe L2P issues. Its just a few members who keep making the same mistakes on progress and we got no replacements to take their spot.
    What is a good motivation or method to make them improve? Its 4-5 people who keep dying to the same mechanic over and over again, they forget their role on bosses like Garalon HC kiting and Protector HC stack soaking.

    It makes us wipe and keeps us back just because of a few people. Recruiting is hard because we only get applies from players who are even worse.

    Any guild master here who can give me some advice? thanks
    If it's really that bad just grab 4 randoms from trade chat and say that the L2P players have been replaced until they learn how to rectify their mistakes. If they don't get it at that point then you might as well go with the 4 randoms and see if they're any better. What do you have to lose?

  3. #3
    Problem is, my GM is a very good guy who is loyal to the guild and tolerant to his raiders no matter how bad they are. He won't give them loot if they play bad, but he would never take randoms from trade.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Needguildhelp View Post
    Problem is, my GM is a very good guy who is loyal to the guild and tolerant to his raiders no matter how bad they are. He won't give them loot if they play bad, but he would never take randoms from trade.
    Have you talked to said raiders about learning to play? Or have you just kept on going as if nothing is happening?

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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehstool View Post
    Have you talked to said raiders about learning to play? Or have you just kept on going as if nothing is happening?
    I'm not an officer so I stay out of officer business. But problem is on protector HC and someone blows up due to 10 stacks its impossible to see who failed.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Seezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Needguildhelp View Post
    Problem is, my GM is a very good guy who is loyal to the guild and tolerant to his raiders no matter how bad they are. He won't give them loot if they play bad, but he would never take randoms from trade.
    They forget that they're kiting or soaking? That's not a L2P issue, that's a stupidity issue. If it's explained to them that they have to kite, how do they forget? Either that or they don't give a shit. But stupid things like that aren't going to get you guys anywhere. If it's frustrating you, then you need to do any of these.

    -Talk to the GM first. Explain to him your frustration.
    -If that doesn't do anything, then look for another guild. Don't be dick an take the entire raid with you, but let the GM know and find another.
    -Tell those people that forgetting your role is not an excuse and to remember

    What not to do.

    -Don't play whisper games with other frustrated guildies and plot a mass exodus
    -Don't lose your cool and make yourself look like a dick

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-12 at 08:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Needguildhelp View Post
    I'm not an officer so I stay out of officer business. But problem is on protector HC and someone blows up due to 10 stacks its impossible to see who failed.
    Doesn't phoenixstyle show this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille
    You tried too hard and now your post is shit. Never try too hard, the gamble isn't worth it.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Seezer View Post
    They forget that they're kiting or soaking? That's not a L2P issue, that's a stupidity issue. If it's explained to them that they have to kite, how do they forget? Either that or they don't give a shit. But stupid things like that aren't going to get you guys anywhere. If it's frustrating you, then you need to do any of these.

    -Talk to the GM first. Explain to him your frustration.
    -If that doesn't do anything, then look for another guild. Don't be dick an take the entire raid with you, but let the GM know and find another.
    -Tell those people that forgetting your role is not an excuse and to remember

    What not to do.

    -Don't play whisper games with other frustrated guildies and plot a mass exodus
    -Don't lose your cool and make yourself look like a dick
    Not gonna find another guild. Been there for 3 years through hard times and I won't quit on it now. Plus that the realm is my home and I don't wanna find new friends etc...

    I think the GM has a plan to sort it, but I'm merely looking for help to sort the derping out.

  8. #8
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    If you are not an officer and you stay out of their business, acceptable and fine, but why won't you ask your GM or officers to talk to the people? And honestly giving people some advice in manner of "hey, I know something what could improve your performance, want to hear?" is not "meddling" in officer business.

    When they truly don't want to listen you, then just poke an officer or GM to have small and light chat with the person in question.

    Your GM might be a nice guy, but that doesn't stop a nice guy to give some general advice to people to improve.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished ||Proud RL of 25-man 7/14 HC PUG
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Needguildhelp View Post
    Problem is, my GM is a very good guy who is loyal to the guild and tolerant to his raiders no matter how bad they are. He won't give them loot if they play bad, but he would never take randoms from trade.
    If you can't take them aside and teach them yourself then it might be time to talk it up with your GM. Something along the lines of, "Yeah, we're doing alright now, but if John Doe and Jane Doe keep messing up like that we're never gonna down X Boss." If he's understanding he should see your side of things.

  10. #10
    If you say you do not wish to talk to the people who are failing as you are not the GM/officers, then it would seem your only option would be to complain to you GM/officers until they fix it...?

    As you specifically asked for advice from GMs we will only tell you what we would do... which will generally involve a private discussion with whoever is screwing up.

  11. #11
    Alright. I'll talk to my GM and tell him to talk personally with the people failing.

    Seems to be the only solution. Thanks

  12. #12
    Tell them how to fix their badness, if they can't after 2 resets, and it's holding your progress back to a point where you'd rather just kill dragons instead of playing with friends, replace them.

  13. #13
    It is always very difficult to come out of things such as this. Perhaps your GM doesn't want to talk to them personally, cause he:
    1. doesn't like confronting people (A GM doesn't always need to do this, he can have a specific officer for confronting people)
    2. is affraid that they will leave and he is more handicapped then he is now (no replacements)
    3. thinks the issue will eventually solve itself (it happens due to experience) - think about how much you have wiped vs other fights (not specifically in MoP) - is it really different this time?

    Talking to your GM or another officer might be the way to go. If you feel your issue will go unnoticed, you can always (if you have one) go to your own forum and write down what your issues are + (very important) what the solution might be.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    It is always very difficult to come out of things such as this. Perhaps your GM doesn't want to talk to them personally, cause he:
    1. doesn't like confronting people (A GM doesn't always need to do this, he can have a specific officer for confronting people)
    2. is affraid that they will leave and he is more handicapped then he is now (no replacements)
    3. thinks the issue will eventually solve itself (it happens due to experience) - think about how much you have wiped vs other fights (not specifically in MoP) - is it really different this time?

    Talking to your GM or another officer might be the way to go. If you feel your issue will go unnoticed, you can always (if you have one) go to your own forum and write down what your issues are + (very important) what the solution might be.
    1. If a GM can't confront people that are making chronic mistakes in raids that are detrimental to the overall experience, then maybe he should reconsider his position.

    2. If they keep making the same mistakes over and over again without being rectified then anyone, even randos from trade chat would be better than them.

    3. There's a difference between people adapting after a few wipes and blatantly making the same mistake without learning form it.

  15. #15
    Scarab Lord Chonar's Avatar
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    Perhaps a "this guy failed" raiding mod will do the trick.

    You know the one, the one someone is running in LFR that spams the entire instance chat because no one avoids stuff they wont die to anyway, much to everyone's chagrin.

    "Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my comrade." - Albert Camus

  16. #16
    Blademaster Leyn's Avatar
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    Unfortunately you can't fix stupidity.

    Besides that, communication is the key. Even saying "good job so far XXXXXX" in Ventrilo helps.

  17. #17
    We had a similar issue with one of our raiders recently. Despite of repeated advice from multiple officers and constructive criticism over a long period of time it became clear that the player had simply skill capped and was outpaced by the difficulty of the content. Taking the necessary step in such cases is hard as there are usually feelings involved (especially in tight-knit guilds), but the performance of 1 should never ruin the fun and enjoyment of many - no matter that person's stature in the guild, or how nice he or she is.

    If the officers have made the players in question aware of their shortcomings, given ample constructive criticism and have made it known that such performance will under no circumstance be tolerated, and they're still not improving, you need to look for replacements. In most cases though, players can get really far on friendly advise and positive encouragement. Judging from what you've shared, it seems the real problem is in the leadership not doing enough and not being consequent about what's expected of raiders.
    Last edited by Lachtobi; 2013-02-12 at 09:19 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by bionics View Post
    1. If a GM can't confront people that are making chronic mistakes in raids that are detrimental to the overall experience, then maybe he should reconsider his position.
    Yes I agree Bionics. But as I said in your quoted text of me - the GM could be the people person and an officer the "bad-guy". It works, trust me. That said you still have someone that can confront/correct people around. And that person regardless if GM or officer, should act.

    Quote Originally Posted by bionics View Post
    2. If they keep making the same mistakes over and over again without being rectified then anyone, even randos from trade chat would be better than them.
    Depends on how low the skilllevel is. Come on mate, you cannot seriously think that "pugging" works wonders in terms of skill unless you bring someone from another "endgame guild" who wasn't selected due to whatever reason that ID. Pugging works when your overal guildlevel isn't that skilled. And I am not reading from the OP's post that it is that bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by bionics View Post
    3. There's a difference between people adapting after a few wipes and blatantly making the same mistake without learning form it.
    Come on, you know full well that sometimes people hit a brick wall. And that brick wall is different for everyone. Usually it ends up "clicking" after a good few wipes. I remember having 180 wipes on heroic 25 man Anub. This was pretty high on wipes. But no where near a guild that killed it an hour before we did... they had double that amount. Both mine and theirs were pretty damn skilled at the time. You seriously feel that you can just (without replacements etc) can pug your way out of there?



    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    Judging from what you've shared, it seems the real problem is in the leadership not doing enough and not being consequent about what's expected of raiders.
    Agree with your overal post. Just want to add this: Yes according to his post (his post) the problem is leadership. But as he is not an officer or GM, he doesn't know if they do actually confront/talk to people. Perhaps they do it, but via /w or via PM's on their forum. Perhaps they do it at times before or after a raid or even during a heroic when an officer is in the same party as the guy who fails.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Agree with your overal post. Just want to add this: Yes according to his post (his post) the problem is leadership. But as he is not an officer or GM, he doesn't know if they do actually confront/talk to people. Perhaps they do it, but via /w or via PM's on their forum. Perhaps they do it at times before or after a raid or even during a heroic when an officer is in the same party as the guy who fails.
    And that to me is very telling. A regular member is breaking the chain of command and looking for external advice. This means that either the leadership hasn't realized the magnitude of the problem, or they're not being open about it. In 10 man guilds neither of those tend to yield good results. If half the raid is struggling then it's a guild wide problem that everyone should try to help resolve.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Lachtobi View Post
    And that to me is very telling. A regular member is breaking the chain of command and looking for external advice. This means that either the leadership hasn't realized the magnitude of the problem, or they're not being open about it. In 10 man guilds neither of those tend to yield good results. If half the raid is struggling then it's a guild wide problem that everyone should try to help resolve.
    Totally agree. The key is "communication". If the officers are keeping everything behind closed doors, this can be bad. If the officers aren't doing anything, this OP needs to speak up. = communication on both angles.

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