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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Dekadez View Post
    No idea how you decided that was the point I made. I meant to say that subjective fun to the player playing the class is not going to get him to be invited to a raid. What gets people invited is performance. This thread was about the OP saying Shamans are basically only asked to heal because presumably the other specs suck (which they don't), while delaxes followed up with a 'Even if DPS sucks, we're fun to play!'. We get invited to raid because our DPS doesn't suck and we provide some utility. All in all our DPS specs are more than fine (Enhancement) and relatively fine (Elemental).

    But yea, look harder.



    Analysis disagrees. But hey, anecdotal evidence trumps data analysis every time, right?

    We're one of the lowest DPS specs that are actually being actively played (and thus bring somewhat reliable data strings). The difference with the top is rather huge, but that's because Arcane and Affliction are outliers. The difference with the middle of the pack isn't that big, but it's there and it's systematical. We're getting an upwards number tweak, and apparently some QoL mechanic changes, which was all Elemental really needed aside from a total overhaul in 6.0.
    You contradict yourself there. Your response to paintonasign is enhancement and ele ps is fine. Then quote me and say data says they suck.

  2. #22
    Enhance is great, idk what you've been hearing.

    Ele is disappointing though.

  3. #23
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    "Viable" and "competitive" are terms that get thrown around and misused regularly, too. Elemental is, currently, both viable and competitive. Does this mean they're doing well? No; they're bottoming out on the charts, and that isn't a good thing.

    It's like an Olympic race. Everyone there is "competitive" and "an athlete". Someone's still going to come dead last. What matters more than rank is the average spread of specs; on the current Raidbots data, Elemental is at the bottom of the clump, but it's still in the clump, rather than far below like Frost and Arms are.

    "Competitive" means "they're in the race", not "they're winning the race". "Viable" means "able to survive/get by", not "is an apex predator". Is Elemental optimal? No. And I am by no means arguing here that we don't need the buffs coming in, because we have been lagging behind. We're not the only spec that's lagging, though; BM Hunters, Ret paladins, and druid DPS are both lagging behind too. And they're not that far off; on the most recent Raidbots data I checked while grabbing those specs, Elemental actually just crawled up past BM Hunters.

    It's an issue of wording. We definitely need a bump, but when people use words like "broken" or "not viable", what they're engaging in is hyperbole. It's an issue in my mind because the devs see feedback phrased like that, look at the data, and disagree with the hyperbole. This risks us getting overlooked. I'm not trying to rein people in on this because I don't want to get our issues addressed, but I don't want the Shaman community turning into Chicken Little either, and freaking out whenever either spec isn't in the top 5.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    "Viable" means "able to survive."
    First time ever after years reading these forums and very accurate posts by endus, I disagree a bit. Elemental has really bad tools to stay alive when damage is taken for long period, or in bursts with very little to no time in between. Shek'zeer HC is a best example, i think.

    I'm aware that this issue is fixed in 5.2 with shamanistic rage, and i'm very happy for all elementals out there for that!

  5. #25
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyttis View Post
    First time ever after years reading these forums and very accurate posts by endus, I disagree a bit. Elemental has really bad tools to stay alive when damage is taken for long period, or in bursts with very little to no time in between. Shek'zeer HC is a best example, i think.

    I'm aware that this issue is fixed in 5.2 with shamanistic rage, and i'm very happy for all elementals out there for that!
    I wasn't really speaking of "survival" as a gameplay component, but in a more general sense.

    Like, when we talk about whether something is "economically viable", we mean it'll work. Not that it'll be the bestest and most profitable thing ever, just that it will turn a profit. And, in business, you usually want something better than "viable". My point was that "viability" is a pretty low bar, and people have been using the word lately with an incorrectly high valuation on it.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dekadez View Post
    No idea how you decided that was the point I made. I meant to say that subjective fun to the player playing the class is not going to get him to be invited to a raid. What gets people invited is performance. This thread was about the OP saying Shamans are basically only asked to heal because presumably the other specs suck (which they don't), while delaxes followed up with a 'Even if DPS sucks, we're fun to play!'. We get invited to raid because our DPS doesn't suck and we provide some utility. All in all our DPS specs are more than fine (Enhancement) and relatively fine (Elemental).

    But yea, look harder.
    Perhaps I just misinterpreted your tone, however, I still fail to see what your comment provides. I understand a RL doesn't think "Hey, that guy sounds like he's having a great time, I'll invite him.", however, shouldn't that already be the case, no matter who the RL invites? Without really getting into the motivations of a player, I think its crazy to play a class/game you don't particularly enjoy. What's the point of separating the two? Why tell someone: "Nobody cares if you're having fun"? That's my issue. I just don't see the point. If all you had said was "We get invited to raid because our DPS doesn't suck and we provide some utility.", I would have never mentioned anything.

    Anywho... Tangent.
    Last edited by PaintOnASign; 2013-02-13 at 08:43 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dekadez View Post
    No idea how you decided that was the point I made. I meant to say that subjective fun to the player playing the class is not going to get him to be invited to a raid. What gets people invited is performance. This thread was about the OP saying Shamans are basically only asked to heal because presumably the other specs suck (which they don't), while delaxes followed up with a 'Even if DPS sucks, we're fun to play!'. We get invited to raid because our DPS doesn't suck and we provide some utility. All in all our DPS specs are more than fine (Enhancement) and relatively fine (Elemental).
    I never said our dps sucked. I just said even if their dps isnt the best which is true since quite a few classes have better dps than us. But anyway do you really think you can do your maximum performance on a class you dont enjoy? I dont. I believe that a class you have most fun playing, you can perform better at. You
    learn how to optimize your dps and help your group in the best way possible. On a class you dont have fun with, well you probably just do a normal rotation found on noxxic or something and never actually learn to play it to its best

  8. #28
    Enhancement is fine atm. He only lacks cleave dmg and fast aoe which is annoying on some fights when you dps 2-3 targets or need to kill small adds within ~5 seconds.
    They are also gorrible in pvp comparing to other melee dps classes but I don't care since I dont play pvp :P
    What makes me anxious is that they are going to nerf enhancement spec in 5.2. For me it seems like : enha is fire for the first time ever so let's nerf them :P.
    Ok, ele is dissapointing, however we can see that Blizz is trying hard to make them better in the near future.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmyx View Post
    What makes me anxious is that they are going to nerf enhancement spec in 5.2. For me it seems like : enha is fire for the first time ever so let's nerf them :P.
    Every enhancer that wasn't running the cookie cutter UF+echo has been buffed as every other talent in those tiers has been buffed.

    And don't overdramatize 130%LB->120%LB nerf. It's there, but it isn't that dramatic.
    Your flame shock has been buffed, you keep the upfront damage of the unglyphed one and the duration of the glyph which actually buffed you in cleave/AoE together with the buffed CL and also slightly lessens the UF nerf for single target.

    Or are there other nerfs i'm not aware of?

  10. #30
    Elemental is fine, atleast from a 10 man pov, you can't compare pure dps classes dps with our dps since we are hybrids, we bring alot of utility to the raid, warlocks and mages essentially bring only their dps, hence it's need to be a little higher, at the start of this tiers progression i felt shaman was quite bad, however i later realised that i was playing bad and gear makes quite a difference for casters, especially weapons. anyway, my point is there's something on most fights that makes elemental shamans invaluable, i'm gonna state what it was in our progression that made me have a spot on most kill over other classes like warlocks and mages. Basically i learned that it was not on the DPS front that i would secure myself raidspots.

    Stone guards: Not too much here actually, other than shaman being great for spreading tiles while upholding a somewhat strong dps.
    Feng the accursed: CL + glyph for the adds, this early progression in 10 man and with 3 healers i was able to do double of other classes damage on the adds, also my healing CD came in quite handy.
    Gara'jal: we went with a 2 healer tactic and therefore needed hybrids to heal inside incase a healer could not go in.
    Spirit kings: again the movement and 2x purge was insane.
    Elegon: Ancestral guidance for the last 6-7% was just too big of a boost to pass up on progression.
    Will of the emperor: so yeah, i was benched for this, definetly not a fight for elemental.

    Imperial vizier zorlok: DPS while moving and insane burst for the 2nd phase echo made elemental really good for this fight.
    Blade lord: offhealing in the running phase.
    Garalon: moving dps and offhealing since we went with 2 healers.
    Wind lord: CL? also single target purging was important.
    Amber Shaper: well i actually topped dps for this, CL is a really solid spell on this fight.
    Grand empress: Tremor totem for the last phase, and this might come as a surprise, but earthquake was the most important spell for me on this encounter, we had 2 tanks, 1 tanking 6 windblades and 1 tanking the other 2, keeping earthquake under the windblades at all times was a must due the knockdown to avoid a tank oneshot.

    Protectors Normal HC: ranged interrupt with 12 sec CD, ancestral guidance for the last phase with 9 stacks and healing buff on raiders was quite sick as well.
    Tsulong: the way we did it bind elemental was a necessity for the day to night phase swap, also thunderstorm saved our lives a number of times.
    Lei shi: running dps again, ability to use CD's at the right time.
    Sha: running while dps'ing in p1 was quite a benefit, CL for the last part of the fight was insane, i think elemental is probably the best specc on sha below 20% or so.
    Protectors elite HC: again the interrupt, ancestral quidance with 9 stacks, and healing rain for the last phase.

    Also, i see alot of people saying we are bad single target, how many fights in this tier is actually raw single target fights?

  11. #31
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowl View Post
    Elemental is fine, atleast from a 10 man pov, you can't compare pure dps classes dps with our dps since we are hybrids, we bring alot of utility to the raid, warlocks and mages essentially bring only their dps, hence it's need to be a little higher
    The "hybrid tax" stopped being a design component in TBC. The last echoes of it died by the end of WotLK. It's not even remotely a factor any longer.

  12. #32
    You have to take those kind of comments with a grain of salt. And to be honest, play whatever class you like.

    I am an enhancement shaman and I am one of the very best dps players in my guild, I top charts all the time. Does this mean that all enhancement shamans out there do the same? no. I´m not a progression player and if your guild isnt into that level of playing then you can pretty much pick shaman for whatever role they can fulfill.

    All those comments of how "x class is unplayable" are reserved for the cut-throat world of progression raiding where any % of undertuning can mean you don`t get to raid. Normal players dont cut things so tight.

    Honestly, if you think you might like the class, try it out. Its one of the most fun and unique classes in the game. It isnt perfect and your mileage may vary, but I assure you its not as bad as some forums make out to be.
    Last edited by caballitomalo; 2013-02-14 at 07:32 PM.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The "hybrid tax" stopped being a design component in TBC. The last echoes of it died by the end of WotLK. It's not even remotely a factor any longer.
    i disagree, warlocks and mages doesn't really bring anything to the table in regards to raidwide survivability, a warlock brings healthstones, but you can't base warlock as hybrid because of that, it's stupid that warlocks are the only ones who can do healthstones, but that's another talk. the ability to heal myself or others, and pop a raidwide CD should definetly come with some sort of punishment compared to the pure DPS classes, as all hybrids would be very OP if on the same DPS level as warlocks or mages, and people would most likely just bring 1 mage and 1 warlock to each raid just for the unique buffs they provide if that was the case.
    Last edited by Rowl; 2013-02-14 at 07:57 PM.

  14. #34
    I see posted here quite a lot that Elemental Shamans having lower dps isn't bad because we can bring some utility to the raid other than our damage numbers. Has this ever been mentioned by the devs as a reasoning? Because if so, I would definitely want to swap off to another class if my numbers being low are okay with everyone because I can bring some tiny heals or buff other people's damage.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Falisa View Post
    I see posted here quite a lot that Elemental Shamans having lower dps isn't bad because we can bring some utility to the raid other than our damage numbers. Has this ever been mentioned by the devs as a reasoning? Because if so, I would definitely want to swap off to another class if my numbers being low are okay with everyone because I can bring some tiny heals or buff other people's damage.
    Devs are not okay with Ele DPS being low, recent blue quote: "Now all that said, Elemental's damage is still low. I didn't want that message to Distract players from the Lava Burst change. I also didn't want players to campaign for just buffing the heck out of Lava Burst, because that would have done damage to the rotation and PvP. Instead, we want to buff Elemental evenly. Imagine a Shamanism buff if you must until we decide the actual change."

    That being said, the hybrid tax is just something for pure dps classes to claim they have an inherent right to do more DPS than other classes. I completely disagree with that statement because "pure" dps specs are getting more and more tools that give utility. Warlocks get Healthstones, Dark Bargain and Demon Gate, which are three amazing abilities. Mages are a little lackluster as far as support ability goes, but they still have abilities such a Ring of Frost, Spellsteal, and Iceblock/Greater Invisibility. You can't make an argument that "Pure" dps classes should inherently do more damage because you can't perform another role. Everyone had a choice in which character they leveled. If you leveled a pure DPS you probably didn't want to tank/heal, so using that as an argument isn't valid.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Rowl View Post
    i disagree, warlocks and mages doesn't really bring anything to the table in regards to raidwide survivability, a warlock brings healthstones, but you can't base warlock as hybrid because of that, it's stupid that warlocks are the only ones who can do healthstones, but that's another talk. the ability to heal myself or others, and pop a raidwide CD should definetly come with some sort of punishment compared to the pure DPS classes, as all hybrids would be very OP if on the same DPS level as warlocks or mages, and people would most likely just bring 1 mage and 1 warlock to each raid just for the unique buffs they provide if that was the case.
    Well, the developers disagree, the hybrid tax is dead and won't be coming back. Elementals low DPS has nothing to do with its utility. Beyond that, I completely disagree that Warlocks don't bring anything to the table. Warlocks bring a tremendous amount of utility to the raid. Healthstones, Demon Gate, Soul Stones, Banish, and fear have all proven very useful this raid tier. All on a class that is practically capable of doing 100% of its DPS on the move.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    Well, the developers disagree, the hybrid tax is dead and won't be coming back. Elementals low DPS has nothing to do with its utility. Beyond that, I completely disagree that Warlocks don't bring anything to the table. Warlocks bring a tremendous amount of utility to the raid. Healthstones, Demon Gate, Soul Stones, Banish, and fear have all proven very useful this raid tier. All on a class that is practically capable of doing 100% of its DPS on the move.
    ill give you demon gate, however soul stones is more a raid buff than actual utility, imo, you don't benefit from more than 1 warlock doing it in any way, banish and fear has certainly been useful, but is simply CC abilities, and most classes have some sort of CC ability, but yes, you are right, demon gate is definetly utility, however there's no fight where, in my guild atleast, we needed a warlock because of demon gate, it is nice to have, but it's nowhere near tranquility, or healing tide(ancestral guidance/off-heal ability. also, what utility does mages bring? other than BL shared by 2 other classes, again a case where you don't benefit from several (unless someone dies).

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Mixae View Post
    Everytime I say something about wanting to play a shaman people say every time "well play shaman if you like healing" basically saying the DPS specs suck. But I really dont want to heal 24/7 so I'm scared to play my shaman. They can't suck that bad I mean jeez.
    Shaman is FUN. The main reason why people will say it's not is because due to the numbers they pull in comparison to other classes is what people tend to turn them off from it. Let alone the bad rep the class has gotten over the years as the "stay the hell away from" class by other players.

    In my opinion Restoration and Enhancement are sitting in nice spots, while Elemental still has the curse of being good at the start, but then falling behind due to going deeper into raiding and gearing.

    Like I tell people when they ask me if they should play a shaman is that it is entertaining and fun, but if you're looking to be the big bad number on a DPS meter then you're not going to get there, unless the people you're playing with happen to not be great.

    I would like to say, just like with any hybrid that can heal people will always want you and ask where's your healing OS or why don't you heal? This isn't a uncommon thing with other classes.

  19. #39
    I have a new shaman, my main is a monk.

    Even when my monk is just gearing up I could formulate some sort of battle tactics (disarm incoming melee, then TOK, then expect leg sweep trinket, then fist of fury and pop tiger).

    With my shaman... so far ability I do is pretty much immediately countered, especially with melee. And the only working battle tactics in my mind to actually win is to knock people off a cliff... Still completely at lost as far as battle tactic is concern when a warrior targets me.

    (Of course I am still learning, and I forget to use totem often... just initial point of view of the class)

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Rowl View Post
    ill give you demon gate, however soul stones is more a raid buff than actual utility, imo, you don't benefit from more than 1 warlock doing it in any way, banish and fear has certainly been useful, but is simply CC abilities, and most classes have some sort of CC ability, but yes, you are right, demon gate is definetly utility, however there's no fight where, in my guild atleast, we needed a warlock because of demon gate, it is nice to have, but it's nowhere near tranquility, or healing tide(ancestral guidance/off-heal ability. also, what utility does mages bring? other than BL shared by 2 other classes, again a case where you don't benefit from several (unless someone dies).
    I don't think you can point at any utility and say that it was needed. Thats the whole point of utility, its useful but not required. I'm not saying Warlocks have superior utility, simply that they do have quite a bit, especially compared with what you listed above. I honestly cannot speak for what Mages bring to the table since my raid does not have one. However, I can def imagine practical uses for things like counter spell, spell steal, ice block, and ring of frost.

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