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  1. #101
    The Insane apepi's Avatar
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    Well pvp is still going to be low....
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  2. #102
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    You have zero clue about how numbers work in computers, do you? 1 + 1 is calculated at exactly same speed (and uses exactly same memory, BTW) as 9999999 + 9999999 as long as they're of same type.
    And what is doing the calculating? The ram is only there to store to store data for current running applications, the RAM itself is not the component that affects whether or not things is fast enough as long as its at least DDR3 running at 1333Mhz and assuming its not running out of space and that you are not running out of video memory on your GPU which means it will borrow space from your RAM sticks making things go slower but not crash fully. ( Which is also the reason that i wrote the part about computers that should been trashed years ago ), anything above that wont make the slightest difference for gaming as the amount of data being used by a single application is rarely above 2 GB on the RAM.

    Its first when you are doing video editing/photo editing and having very large files loaded into the RAM that having higher speeds is good, Gaming is no where near those amounts. About how numbers work in computers i am very well aware of that it works on 0 + 1 basis in binary as well.
    Last edited by mmoc0d096f98da; 2013-02-12 at 11:11 PM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Sainiunit View Post
    How about the Korean servers?

    H TF 25man gear. Shit's going to be insane.

    The rate that ilvl is increasing at is kinda freaky. I really dislike how gear is starting to be more important than personal play in terms of DPS.
    starting to be? what game have you been playing?

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    No.

    ilvl scaling is ridiculous and seems to be on an exponential curve.

    Every increase in ilvl is greater than the previous increase. This leads to a larger than ever discrepancy between players. This has especially heavy repercussions in PvP but also adversely effects PvE.
    I'd bet if you looked at more then just Tiers, gear progression is mostly linear.
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Novx View Post
    Also @Frozenbeef: Welcome to MMORPGs, if you don't want gear play a game that has no new xpacs or patches coming out, like Everquest, or Hello Kitty. This is a game that contains expansions, your items will become worthless.
    If you're going to try to talk down to someone at least get your facts straight.

    Everquest is the MMO with the most expansions of all time (19 total now, in the roughly 14 years it has existed), with the most recent one being released only 3 months ago (November 2012). Everquest was actually even well-known for NOT having gear resets, you had to raid through essentially every tier to be able to tackle the next one. They did get away from this in the last few years/expansions because of declining subscriptions and they realized that you need some means of gear catch-ups or anyone that falls behind will just eventually quit.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    serioussly guys, would you like to hit mobs for 100 damage again? because I'm sure as hell I won't
    soon we will hit for 100k, back to the basics!

  7. #107
    current tier is 509. (+ 8 = 517 upgraded).

    in cata, before the invention of lfr, normal mode next tier gear startet 6 lvls higher than old heroic gear.

    Only in consideration of upgrades, the new normal gear would be useless to raiders.

    Too, from bliz perspective is to put lfr in between.

    so new lfr = upgraded normal mode gear (504(funny number) - 2. New LFR may be a very slight upgrade for people who are still doing normal modes at the end of a tier, and didnt spend any valorpoints in upgrades.

    new normal mode = slightly better than old upgraded hc gear. (517)

    next tier starts with 522.

    Former it was 6 lvls differnence, now it is 5 if, or 6-8 if not everything is upped. On average, it will be 6 like always.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    tl,dr:
    Whats the fucking matter? OP; Eat sum nuts and some brocoli, they will help your brain.
    What happened? Lfr got put into equation, for raiding people nothing changed, only rerollers or really slow raiders may find slight upgrades in new lfr.
    everything is fine. there is no conspiracy.
    There is only a realization of a well-thought concept from the devs, that u are not smart enough to understand.

  8. #108
    Herald of the Titans Theodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    You have zero clue about how numbers work in computers, do you? 1 + 1 is calculated at exactly same speed (and uses exactly same memory, BTW) as 9999999 + 9999999 as long as they're of same type.
    As evonaku has already said, the RAM stores the information for fast retrieval in a dynamic state, whilst the processors handle all of the mathmatical calculations. If I'm remembering this correctly, graphical processors are more efficient at handling lots of small calculations whilst computer processors are better at handling large-scale ones. Some large servers use a combination of the two for that reason.

    The size of the number can matter depending on your processors data width, but I seriously doubt adding up the additional math required due to bigger numbers in WoW would really make that big an impact. for example; if your processor has 32 bit data width, it would take an extra cycle to add a number larger than 4,294,967,295 to another number, I believe. any number that is higher than the data width allowance takes twice as long to calculate with.

  9. #109
    Legendary! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    There isn't a conspiracy, but there's still a problem with this system. You can't simply "assume" that each player has upgraded every piece of their normal mode gear to "avoid" having to do LFR.

    Currently on my priest, I have seven pieces that are below the LFR item level. I'm not even going to think about the fact that the rest of those slots will see immediate replacement in normal, but seven item upgrades in LFR for someone who actually did have some heroic mode progression and was 16/16 normal modes is a bit absurd.

    All this item level equation removes from "LFR necessity" (which is obviously not a necessity, but you try and tell a min/max player it isn't) is guilds that are full 16/16 heroic geared. That's about 2% of the game's total raiding population. Which kind of goes against what their previously perceived promise was, which was that if you raided normal and heroic modes with success you would not need LFR.
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  10. #110
    We won't go for hundreds of bilions in any near time, so it would took for me about 10 expansions to get crazy numbers. And computers can handle those with ease. And things like secondary ratings will always be the same...

  11. #111
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    Item levels are irrelevant, its the stats on each gear tier that make it so. You could have an item with 200 ilvl with 100 stam, 150 intel and 130 crit. But if the next ilvl is 400 and has 120 stam, 180 intel and 145 crit then how much difference did ilvl really make.
    No. Ilvl are directly responsible for the amount of every stat on an item - thats why the systems like item upgrades, challenge mode down scaling, PTR up scaling for gear even works.

    You cant make an item with 999,999 armor, INT, haste, mastery, crit and giving it an ilvl of 123.

  12. #112
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    Taxing people's computers? lol. Come on realy. The graphics in wow put more tax on any computer then it having to count tens of thousands numbers realy fast. The average computer now days can more then handle counting you do a million dps.

    Unless... You aren't still using a windows 95 laptop are you?
    The item level squish is not and never has been because of players' computers. The players' computers don't do all that much number-crunching in WoW - because that would make it far too easy to cheat. The primary reason, as far as I could tell, is based around Blizzard's servers.

    Working with large numbers is harder than working with small numbers. Performing a calculation like, say, x*y, involves more computational operations if x and y are ten million, than if they're ten. Not necessarily a million times more complex, but still more complex. That, in turn, means that for a set of calculations, Blizzard needs more powerful hardware, and more powerful cooling to keep it running. On the level of a home computer, this is near negligible, but for a large server farm, running millions or billions of these calculations per second, the consequences of using larger numbers when smaller numbers could be used add up. I'm talking about the power you need to supply to the servers, the upgrades you need to perform, the number of servers you need to run, etc.

    This might seem nonsensical to some, but it is quite real.

    If Blizzard can return to running calculations involving tens or hundreds, instead of thousands and millions, the hardware they have becomes relatively more powerful without a physical upgrade. Costs of running server farms drop slightly. Players eventually get used to it, and bingo, the problem is staved off for another two or three expansions.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown View Post
    There isn't a conspiracy, but there's still a problem with this system. You can't simply "assume" that each player has upgraded every piece of their normal mode gear to "avoid" having to do LFR.

    Currently on my priest, I have seven pieces that are below the LFR item level. I'm not even going to think about the fact that the rest of those slots will see immediate replacement in normal, but seven item upgrades in LFR for someone who actually did have some heroic mode progression and was 16/16 normal modes is a bit absurd.

    All this item level equation removes from "LFR necessity" (which is obviously not a necessity, but you try and tell a min/max player it isn't) is guilds that are full 16/16 heroic geared. That's about 2% of the game's total raiding population. Which kind of goes against what their previously perceived promise was, which was that if you raided normal and heroic modes with success you would not need LFR.

    i just dont get this amount of retardism. a guy that NOW has no upgraded normal mode gear and no heroic gear feels himself so devoted into this game that he feels FORCED to run lfr for better gear? He had nearly 5 month time of getting better gear. if a player is min-maxing, he has upgrades and heroic gear.

    this is so bigot casualism #
    " i am a minmaxer and i cry because of a few ilvl, i dont raid sucessfully, i have no / bad gear, but i dont want to be forced into lfr to do something about my gear that has been outdated since a quarter of a year."

    even if you would be able to upgrade some slots, fine. u got 2 or 3 ilvl gain from 2 hours lfr wiping.

    Of course, u checked all the stats of the new gear and know exactly witch lfr items of nearly similar ilvl are so much better itemized, that it would make a difference, und with the 2-3 weeks coming to farm the old content, gaining additional 2 k valor to make at least 3 further upgrades, before the new instance opens.
    Additionaly, u as a minmax casual too must have the knowledge that lfr opens after the normal mode, where u will get 5-6 ilvl from a clear run of the new raid, with only winning one or two parts..

    But U still feel so much forced to do lfr as a minmaxing casual normal mode player.

  14. #114
    I think the DPS is only going one way
    Atoms are liars, they make up everything!

  15. #115
    I am Murloc! Terahertz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    serioussly guys, would you like to hit mobs for 100 damage again? because I'm sure as hell I won't
    Instead you prefer to see 1.654.235 on your screen? Or how about on extreme encounter with damage multipliers, would 10.325.643 be something you'd like to see frequently? Right now I'm actually comparing the current MoP damage to wotlk damage because it's just easier that way.

    I would really like an item squish. I really dislike the extremely high numbers. They don't have any meaning anymore :/. Back in wotlk you'd be shitting your pants if you saw a 10k-20k pop up on your screen. In cataclysm it was impressive if you would hit a 100k. But in MoP I see frequent 100ks-200ks flying around the screen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    I think the DPS is only going one way
    Can't help but notice MM hunter DPS barely being higher than mage DPS back in cataclysm LOOL.
    Last edited by Terahertz; 2013-02-13 at 01:42 AM.

  16. #116
    I have a feeling that the red fit isn't going to fit so well in a few months... Also, the numbers for the first half of 5.0.5 seem rather screwy, especially the massive drop in the middle.

  17. #117
    Deleted
    Not only they are increasing the ilvl gain speed but the ilvl -> character power function is an increasing returns function as well!
    Look at TBC iLVL 159 items from Sunwell.
    Then look at WoTLK iLVL 277 items from 25H Icecrown.
    Then look at iLVL 410 items from H Dragonsoul.
    And then take current HC raid items which are 509.

    See a pattern? Started off at just 2 digit stats in TBC, then went to entry-3 digit in WOTLK, full blown 3 digit in DS and well into 4th digit now. If it was linear function - an ilvl 477 item (triple the one from Sunwell) would have only like +100 main stats and similar amount of ratings. It has thousands already. It is increasing returns algorithm.

    I don't mind numbers. They are just numbers, if you cut everything by 1000 now the boss will be as hard to defeat as it is now, only millions in his HP will be replaced by thousands and you will loose K from your DPS figures.

    Now increasing the rate of change of this INCREASING RETURNS attribute we will see nothing other than numbers skyrocketing through the roof. It's like power of a power. Next expansion will easily take us into millions of health on your average DPS, let alone tanks. This is slowly starting to look like touhou shooter with 15 digit score counter, awarding 10 million points for tiniest enemy.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Esubane View Post
    I don't mind numbers. They are just numbers, if you cut everything by 1000 now the boss will be as hard to defeat as it is now, only millions in his HP will be replaced by thousands and you will loose K from your DPS figures.
    And level 1 chars will have around 0,1 HP.

    That aside, stat growth per iLvl is exponential. iLvl growth itself isn't exponential, nor is it linear. It doesn't follow any simple progression but instead is decided on a case by case basis.

  19. #119
    Deleted
    That moving median line in that picture is way off many times. For an example, how can median be higher than highest dps?

    Why blizzard even decided to increase stats so much every expansion and between tiers? We would not even be at this point if they would have been more moderate with stat increases.
    Last edited by mmoc090a203492; 2013-02-13 at 02:27 AM.

  20. #120
    Legendary! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holofernes View Post
    i just dont get this amount of retardism. a guy that NOW has no upgraded normal mode gear and no heroic gear feels himself so devoted into this game that he feels FORCED to run lfr for better gear? He had nearly 5 month time of getting better gear. if a player is min-maxing, he has upgrades and heroic gear.

    this is so bigot casualism #
    " i am a minmaxer and i cry because of a few ilvl, i dont raid sucessfully, i have no / bad gear, but i dont want to be forced into lfr to do something about my gear that has been outdated since a quarter of a year."

    even if you would be able to upgrade some slots, fine. u got 2 or 3 ilvl gain from 2 hours lfr wiping.

    Of course, u checked all the stats of the new gear and know exactly witch lfr items of nearly similar ilvl are so much better itemized, that it would make a difference, und with the 2-3 weeks coming to farm the old content, gaining additional 2 k valor to make at least 3 further upgrades, before the new instance opens.
    Additionaly, u as a minmax casual too must have the knowledge that lfr opens after the normal mode, where u will get 5-6 ilvl from a clear run of the new raid, with only winning one or two parts..

    But U still feel so much forced to do lfr as a minmaxing casual normal mode player.
    You're pretty good at assuming. Let's see if you can figure out what that means, since you seem to think you're so smart.

    I don't recall stating anywhere a. my raiding situation this tier (so to call me "a normal mode player" is a bit of a stretch), b. that I had "no heroic gear" (funny, I guess that when I said I had seven items currently below the next tier's LFR item level, that must have meant that the other nine slots fit the same description), or c. that I hadn't been spending all of the time that I possibly could attempting to better my gear through any means necessary (but, let me guess, "casuals" are only people who don't put any work into their characters, so clearly I'm just not trying, right?).

    My point was this. The tier's progression path, both for raiding and for gearing, should be LFR - LFR and normal/heroic - normal/heroic. At present, it's LFR - normal and normal - heroic. Now, given that LFR provides about as much difficulty as trying to hit a skyscraper with a bowling ball, I would take it just off of that fact alone that most people that can at least clear normal modes shouldn't be getting upgrades in a new tier of content that is easier than what they just finished progressing through. Why would you go backwards in difficulty to go forwards in your gearing path? It's not a "2-3 ilvl gain". It's six, per slot. Not counting the bad luck I've had with Shek'zeer's tier token (which is still my one and only LFR piece).

    So the next time you want to talk about someone's "retardism", do us all a favor. Look in the mirror first.
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