Tricks of the trade and specs

[Deleted]

Heck I wouldn't even care about tricks if the rogue just played the optimal spec for single target. But it's like me as a hunter playing marksmanship now just cuz I like the playstyle on heroic progression or a dk playing unholy or a warrior playing arms.

It's not like that at all, the difference being that, mm sucks, unholy arguably sucks (not even that much if you play it right) and arms is beyond bad; combat instead, is actually not bad at all and very competitive with assassination (no one in their right mind would play sub at the moment, not on progression at least), we are talking at about 2/3k dps difference if that, i play combat main spec and i have no problem doing my part, even now that we are progressing oh sha hm

[Mazius]

As a farewell to you, I leave you with this: In my opinion, if you're not trying to do your best to maximise your dps, you're not playing a dps role to it's best. You may disagree with that opinion, but I literally don't care since it's my opinion and I value my opinion above yours until you can demonstrate that yours is worth taking seriously.

It's pretty big talk from a rogue, who doesn't find it necessary to play combat on Garalon.
I don't see you trying your best to maximize your DPS there.
But w/e, it's just my opinion.

[Ryme]

It's pretty big talk from a rogue, who doesn't find it necessary to play combat on Garalon.
I don't see you trying your best to maximize your DPS there.
But w/e, it's just my opinion.

A fair catch, but then you should note I don't have a single epic fist weapon, and so it would be a loss to switch to combat for it - especially in the strategy we employ to kill it.

As a note, I really hate the bickering, it puts me on edge and adds nothing to discussion, especially if we're going to start down this personal road - I ask you here to say your final words on the matter and then we can leave this?

[Viggers]

yeah. i dont battle res someone either, i mean thats like 3 seconds of not casting. why would i want to cost myself dps just so that someone else can dps too?

---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 04:45 PM ----------

Dk's can cast unholy frenzy on themselves, rogues can't...

but a DK that cast unholy frenzy on himself instead of a fury warr is as bad as a rogue that doesnt use tricks.

for the record, i get what your saying, but as a progression raider raid>self. i cant count how often i have popped my cooldowns, and then had to run in range of someone, spend 3 seconds casting soulstone, then run back and even though i can feel my dps plummeting, it is still the right thing to do. just like tricksing your highest dps. (sucks if the rogue is the highest dps though )

[Mazius]

for the record, i get what your saying, but as a progression raider raid>self. i cant count how often i have popped my cooldowns, and then had to run in range of someone, spend 3 seconds casting soulstone, then run back and even though i can feel my dps plummeting, it is still the right thing to do. just like tricksing your highest dps. (sucks if the rogue is the highest dps though )

Pretty much sums up everything i've said before.
ToT - "necessary sacrifice" (as feint, or correct Smoke Bomb placement in 5.2).

[Verain]

well i am seeing alot of the same arguments i've had with our rogue.. which is why it is frustrating to say the least. but we had consistently wiped on h vizier to sub 5% and wiped about 6 times on h garalon to enrage with again 5% left or so.. sometimes higher. Isn't that on the rogue ?

Not really, no.

Don't get me wrong- your rogue SHOULD be doing it. The "personal dps" argument isn't accurate. Personal dps is what YOU bring. What they mean is "I bought a map, and the map tells me that this is a road, so I'm driving in it, even though my feet are wet now and the car just stalled and it LOOKS like I might be in a river, but I trust the map". The meter isn't YOUR damage. If you do something that causes 300k damage but the meter is not sophisticated enough to credit the damage to you, that's an issue with the meter (or the combat log), not with you. If you were to replace me with another rogue, and we run the same rotation but he doesn't tricks, the meter would record him as doing a tad more dps, and someone else as doing less, even though THEY still ran the same rotation. When you put me back in, it is MY action that does the damage from tricks of the trade. The meter doesn't COUNT it correctly.

HOWEVER- the damage you are describing does not have the huge difference you perceive. High haste values as combat WILL trivialize the energy cost, but they still incur a global cost (which can be larger, especially as combat). The rogue doesn't have a global that costs 15 energy and deals 100k damage except for tricks- but remember that the rogue would have dealt around 20k with that energy instead. The damage lost for not tricksing is sad, but it's not like raid buff levels of stuff.

I will also point out that HGaralon is actually a fight where the rogue might actually be better off NOT tricksing when he's on a leg- his damage gain out of that 15 energy could actually be higher than the buff, unless he's tricksing another strong flurry type (arms warrior, for instance). But this is an edge case, and even if it was the case, the rogue would be better off tricksing during the single target portions unquestionably. But I doubt very much that the 5% swings on tricks. While good, tricks is not a raid buff (missing "muff", the 5% monk buff, or the 5% crit strike buff, or if the armor debuff isn't applied, could be on this order).

But your rogue should still press the buttons that do the damage. That's his job. Him being a pissant about how the meter records his damage under the warrior column is childish and mathematically incorrect.

Also, no one definitively mentioned the difference in specs. With heroic gear simcraft shows sub being 8k dps higher than combat on single target. EIGHT thousand. How is that irrelevant ? Unless in practice the difference is much smaller (which is possible), that's way too big of a difference to ignore. Heck I wouldn't even care about tricks if the rogue just played the optimal spec for single target. But it's like me as a hunter playing marksmanship now just cuz I like the playstyle on heroic progression or a dk playing unholy or a warrior playing arms.

Well, one difference here is that your rogue may not have access to a good enough dagger. The hunter and rogue both have to reforge, but it's not survival only works with guns and BM with bows.

Simcraft sub modelling is a bit imperfect, and it assumes a lot of strategy, and generally plenty of access to the boss's ass. Telling him to go sub on Vizier could well result in him losing damage. Also note that Sub scales the best with gear, as it gains a nice bonus to agility- so the BIS values for sub are going to result in different scaling. I'm assuming he doesn't have access to BIS gear (I certainly do not).

Likely, on Vizier, he should be running mutilate. The damage difference between that and combat is probably at least 4k, unless he simply lacks access to daggers entirely, and the mechanics of the fight are friendly to mutilate (not as much for sub), and there's plenty of mutilate rogues on this fight.

[Saoron]

he does have access to daggers but he says combat is just as viable and that he's used to it and knows it better and he doesn't want to reforge for every fight..

But how is it that on a 'rogue' community forum, where i'm assuming, or atleast hope so, that ppl who give advice have rogues/play rogues, that there is differing opinion on whether or not tricks is on the gcd ? like am i missing something ? is it not possible to simply log in and hit the ability ? i almost want to level a rogue and then test it myself and then let everyone know the answer. Mind = blown. Is it on the gcd or not ? If not then that's more of an argument to use it. If it is then it's a bigger sacrifice to personal dps, but still necessary i'd say.

[Sesshou]

well i am seeing alot of the same arguments i've had with our rogue.. which is why it is frustrating to say the least. but we had consistently wiped on h vizier to sub 5% and wiped about 6 times on h garalon to enrage with again 5% left or so.. sometimes higher. Isn't that on the rogue ? Well obv not all of it since raid dps overall needed to be better. But I cannot ignore ~15 ToT in a ~7 minute fight. 90 frikin seconds of extra 15% dmg ? at the cost of 225 energy overall, 15 at a time. Which I would think as combat stacks haste, with higher gear, that would be even less of a penalty on personal dps.

Also, no one definitively mentioned the difference in specs. With heroic gear simcraft shows sub being 8k dps higher than combat on single target. EIGHT thousand. How is that irrelevant ? Unless in practice the difference is much smaller (which is possible), that's way too big of a difference to ignore. Heck I wouldn't even care about tricks if the rogue just played the optimal spec for single target. But it's like me as a hunter playing marksmanship now just cuz I like the playstyle on heroic progression or a dk playing unholy or a warrior playing arms.

Honestly, I'm not sure its a raid dps gain on garalon if your rogue is cleaving. I'm pretty sure the 15% from tricks is not given an additional 15% (for a total of a 30% buff) from the buff you get hitting the legs. Energy is also extremely more valuable as you are getting double damage on your primary target and you are blade flurrying meaning you have less.

Combat stacking haste doesn't really matter this tier anyway since assassination is higher dps single target, and while combat closes in at full bis, if you are still doing Vizier, he clearly doesn't have that.

As for simc on sub, the model for sub appears to be inaccurate as it hasn't accurately reflected real data. If you go check out shadowcraft instead, you will see that it is lower. Not to say that shadowcraft is modeled perfectly either, but the results are more in line with actual data meaning there is a higher probability the model is correct. So if you are giving him extra crap because he isn't sub, you are being a complete moron. I don't think a single top rogue played sub for progression, and those that play it now are just dicking around with it.

@Varian
BiS or not, if simc was correct, sub would have a 3200 dps lead over combat in just normal mode gear and a rather non trivial 8k dps or ~9% dps gain over what it gives assassination.

If not then that's more of an argument to use it. If it is then it's a bigger sacrifice to personal dps, but still necessary i'd say.

No, its largely irrelevant. The only time the GCD would matter is if you energy capped because you spent the GCD on tricks instead of SS/mut/backstab. The only time that is going to happen is for a combat rogue with AR up, but AR only lasts 15 seconds anyway.

[Mazius]

But how is it that on a 'rogue' community forum, where i'm assuming, or atleast hope so, that ppl who give advice have rogues/play rogues, that there is differing opinion on whether or not tricks is on the gcd ? like am i missing something ? is it not possible to simply log in and hit the ability ? i almost want to level a rogue and then test it myself and then let everyone know the answer. Mind = blown. Is it on the gcd or not ?

I don't need to log my char to check it.
ToT off GCD and i'm getting kinda annoied, that i need to repeat it over and over again.

P.S. Some rogues just don't have ToT on the bars (i think), that's why they can't see that it's off gcd (since early MoP beta btw).

[Verain]

I don't need to log my char to check it.
ToT off GCD and i'm getting kinda annoied, that i need to repeat it over and over again.

P.S. Some rogues just don't have ToT on the bars (i think), that's why they can't see that it's off gcd (since early MoP beta btw).

Sorry, this was my error. I haven't played combat enough this tier to have noticed (it was on the global up until MoP, and combat is so low outside of the two flurry fights that I do not run it), as the other specs I press tricks while I am energy low (which is almost always) and simply never have anything to do with the next global. I honestly didn't know it had been removed from the global as the only situation where that matters (during AR/Blades single target) hasn't happened in a raid for me for all of this tier.

[Kael]

I'd like to take this opportunity to make a few comments regarding the way this thread is going:

1) Defining "personal DPS" is REALLY far outside the constraints of this thread. Using Tricks is a DPS gain, and the rogue causes that damage gain, and I don't think anyone's denying that. Whether or not you call tricks damage a "personal damage" gain or loss is irrelevant to the use of it, since you're arguing about the term PERSONAL and not about tricks at all. Let it go.

2) Personal attacks/commentary stops NOW. A lot of those comments are on the edge, and anything after this post in that direction is going to get an infraction. Chill, seriously.

Unrelated, and primarily unrelated to the tricks topic, assassination should be ahead on Vizier, especially if you have your rogue on the Echoes; DP/VM energy/damage isn't entirely negligible and the less attention needed to play during Attenuation, the better >.>

Good rogues should be using tricks on CD, unless they know there's a massive damage increase coming up and are holding it for that time, or doing significantly more DPS than viable tricks targets, yatta yatta. Personally, I wouldn't kick a rogue for not using it. I'm only 10/16H in a heroic progression team (not really hardcore) and there are plenty of places a LOT more damage can be made up, like the other players in my spec pulling 30-50k DPS under me by encounter. If you're wiping to enrage at this point in the tier, tricks damage is not your problem.

Edit: regarding tricks mechanics, it IS off the GCD and is not "locked" the way some off-GCD abilities are (triggering burning rush as a warlock won't let you activate Darkflight as a worgen until the GCD has ended, but the reverse can be done). You can tricks and attack in the same GCD regardless of order, which does make vanish/tricks/attack a DPS gain.

[Deleted]

Lazy rogues lying to raidleaders to get off from extra work.
TotT is a clear raid dps increase and should always be used in "serious" raiding.

[Deleted]

well i am seeing alot of the same arguments i've had with our rogue.. which is why it is frustrating to say the least. but we had consistently wiped on h vizier to sub 5% and wiped about 6 times on h garalon to enrage with again 5% left or so.. sometimes higher. Isn't that on the rogue ? Well obv not all of it since raid dps overall needed to be better. But I cannot ignore ~15 ToT in a ~7 minute fight. 90 frikin seconds of extra 15% dmg ? at the cost of 225 energy overall, 15 at a time. Which I would think as combat stacks haste, with higher gear, that would be even less of a penalty on personal dps.

Having spent an unreal amount of time with Vizier heroic due to some past weaknesses in our roster I can safely say that it's not a question of DPS. As far as Garalon is concerned, it's the one place where rogues spike ahead of most other classes and as such a place where tricks does the least difference (if it's even a DPS gain).

Basically, the problems you're outlying have nothing to do with the usage of tricks. That doesn't change the fact that your rogue should be using it, only that it won't change anything in terms of killing said bosses.

[Saoron]

well we had killed both those bosses a long time ago.. they were not progression technically.. we just had some issues and we lost some ppl and ended up recruiting 6 new ppl.. So we were re-killing vizier and garalon. With new heals and new dps and a new tank. I know dps is not an issue on vizier but it helps, alot. the healer would run out of mana at the end which is why we would wipe. Among other reasons too ofc, but my point is that having tricks on cd for a ~7 minute fight is significant. Which i'm glad everyone here agrees.

On garalon, the rogue was doing 110k dps with a 500ilvl as combat. With me (a pheromone kiter) above him and an enh on top doing 140k. If he were to tricks the shaman imo, that would have made a lot of difference. But I know that tricks by itself is not a game changer. But i'm talking about progression in general. Not just those fights. Like if we get to h protectors or h sha even.. every little bit of dps counts. And then progression for 5.2 and onwards. Atleast for those cases, tricks should be used on cd, which i believe majority of you guys agree with.

But as far as specs go, he does have the sha touched dagger which he uses as his OH and dunnu about a second one but i'm pretty sure another dagger dropped.. So weapons aren't an issue. The only thing is having to reforge back and forth.. Which I guess I can sympathize with. That would be a hassle but for progression though, it should be done, if mut really is significantly better than combat on single target.

also, unrelated.. what's the best spec for maximum burst ? We're going with the burn strat for amber shaper..

[Deleted]

On garalon, the rogue was doing 110k dps with a 500ilvl as combat

Now there's a problem much bigger than that of tricks. This whole discussion of tricks is based on the premise that you got the basics down - I'm doing 170k as combat at 493 ilvl, so clearly he or she hasn't. Some pointers for your guildie include running away 10yd to Killing Spree legs without triggering Crash, Shadowstepping between legs, saving mobility cooldowns for when all legs are down and spending all dps cooldowns on said legs.

When all that is fixed, you can start talking about the marginal DPS boost of tricks. Not a moment sooner though.

[Sesshou]

Well your problem on garalon is that he isn't pulling 160k+ dps, not that he isn't tricksing. Like I said earlier, I don't think the tricks interacts with the other damage bonuses meaning it is still only +15% and not effected by the 100% bonus and the energy used to cast it is a lot more valuable than usual because he is generating less and any energy he spends on actual attacks are getting an extra 100%. Or basically, the damage per energy spend on tricks for garalon is the same as vizier, but damage per energy of all of the rogues other attacks is now 100% higher. If tricks is actually a gain, its going to be really small.

And like Lach said, you would be kinda dumb if you were focusing on the maybe, maybe 5k dps the shaman might get with the tricks instead of the 50k+ your rogue should be able to pull (and then thats putting aside whether that shaman's 5k is a raid dps gain). Last time we did hm garalon I did ~170k with a 498ilvl and I was in the kite rotation.

Reforging isn't a big deal. Have him gem and reforge for assassination and just switch specs and keep his reforging for the 2 fights he will want to cleave on.

[Kael]

Story short, on top of Lach's and Sessh's posts, your rogue should be coming here with logs asking for help if he's at 110k on Garalon or having any trouble keeping up on other fights. Tricks isn't what's pulling him down, but something is, if those are the values he's getting.

[Saoron]

oh i know.. there is something he's missing.. And we've been working on it, trust me. I never said tricks was the only issue, I just wanted to know if it was worth casting.. So combat should only really be used for 2 fights then ? assuming stone guards and garalon.. What about wind lord ? do they still get the buff to blade flurry from recklessness or was that fixed as well ?

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/jyfdu...=10643&e=11063

those are the garalon logs.. I mean he does fairly well on stone guards.. so dunnu why he's low on garalon.. He did say that he has issues with camera angles and he occasionally ends up moving too far ahead of the legs.. that they end up being behind him.. which is silly.. but oh well.. And he did pretty good on vizier as combat.. He wasn't in for the blade lord kill..

Also no one answered my other question.. since we're going for the burn strat for amber shaper, what's the highest burst rogue spec ?

[Deleted]

oh i know.. there is something he's missing.. And we've been working on it, trust me. I never said tricks was the only issue, I just wanted to know if it was worth casting.. So combat should only really be used for 2 fights then ? assuming stone guards and garalon.. What about wind lord ? do they still get the buff to blade flurry from recklessness or was that fixed as well ?

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/jyfdu...=10643&e=11063

those are the garalon logs.. I mean he does fairly well on stone guards.. so dunnu why he's low on garalon.. He did say that he has issues with camera angles and he occasionally ends up moving too far ahead of the legs.. that they end up being behind him.. which is silly.. but oh well.. And he did pretty good on vizier as combat.. He wasn't in for the blade lord kill..

Also no one answered my other question.. since we're going for the burn strat for amber shaper, what's the highest burst rogue spec ?

For 30sec burst, they're pretty close. I peak at 230k as assa and 220k as combat on pull with Bloodlust. Combat has a big leg up in at Amber-Shaper though, due to construct cleaving P1/P2.

[Sesshou]

Combat is really good on ambershaper too. I would say its probably the better choice, yeah your burst may peak a tiny bit lower, but you will do a ton in p2 cleaving to break the aboms while hitting the dude. Imo the hardest part about the burst strat (assuming we mean the same one) is actually getting out of p2.

For garalon, the 2 big things that stood out to me initially are that his SnD uptime is fairly low at 81% and his BF damage is abysmal. I'm doing like 23-24% of my total damage with blade flurry, but your rogue is only doing 15%.

However, after looking at leg damage, your rogue is incredibly low, but he is top on body damage which is absolutely horrible. Now considering his BF damage is so low, that means he is targetting the body with legs up. I'm guessing you have reasonable leg uptime based on your shaman's damage, so there should be a leg for him to hit. I mean he has 110 out of 150 of his sinister strikes hitting the body. He is definitely hitting the body with a leg up still for some reason.

And unless you guys are actually struggling to keep legs down, your mage is being a moron and screwing you guys out of massive raid dps. He is #2 on leg damage and from his total dps, I guarantee you he isn't in the circle for the 200% damage meaning he is taking 200% dps away from some one else. Now multi-dotting is reasonable like what your lock is doing, but he is pyroblasting and fireballing them while outside the circle meaning he would do identical damage if all of those casts hit the body. So if you are having downtime with no legs whatsoever, he is costing you raid dps. Now of course like I just said, the other thing is to get your rogue to actually hit the legs...

Though again, regardless of the mage, your rogue is clearly targetting the body over the legs while they are up at least part of the time or he wouldn't have 2/3 of his main attack on the body.