State of MM

[Okacz]

So, it seems MM won't get any major change otehr than 2.4 Aimed Shot cast time in 5.2. A shame, really, since I'm pretty sure it wont solve any of the dps problems, and MM will remain lacking about 20k dps compared to SV.

The question is - Blizzard seems pretty confident with their "no more chances are needed" policy. Do you think they are right and MM will start doing proper dps in 5.2, due to the item scaling and those small buffs? Or maybe it's doing good damage now and I simply can't play this spec - like Blizzard has also suggested? Or maybe Blizzard did not really test hunter setups and therefore has no clue whatsoever?

Opinions.

[Noctifer616]

I don't think MM is in a bad situation right now. The major problem is that no one is playing it. Considering we have dual spec and SV/BM are all we need right now, how many people actually go out and try the spec?

How far exactly is MM behind SV and BM? We seriously can't use raidbots, and sims aren't really real world examples.

Also, even if MM would only be 5% behind SV and BM (which for the average player is almost nothing), you will still see no one playing the spec because most people would stick to what they see on simcraft, raidbots and WoL.

[Okacz]

Well, I do go out and try it. During fights like Feng I pull off around 90k dps with SV. And around 70-75k in MM. Tested MM in LFR, don't want my guild to get harmed. MM REALLY lacks dps, and with pretty complicated rotation (compared to SV, for example) it should be way more rewarding.

[Megazorrd]

My opinion is we have two viable raid specs in BM and SRV. I enjoy marks as well as any of our specs but never have we had 3 equally competitive raiding specs.


Edit: I've toyed around with MM in lfr 130k on garajal 112k heroic vizier 140 something normal garalon. Now granted this means nothing I'd like to think I semi know what I'm doing.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...2451#Megarises

Pretty much my first time playing marks since T11. I'm still far from mastering the mop version as I only really play it to scumbag rankings every now and then.

[Noctifer616]

That's a huge dps difference. I remember playing a bit of MM at the start of 5.1 and I am sure the gap wasn't that big.

[Megazorrd]

From that log you can get a decent guage on BM vs MM. Both of us playing decent I'm about 10k behind playing as marks

[Daeaye]

So it isn't just my imagination that my MM hunter hasn't been doing so well. She used to be great, and all of a sudden things went sour for her during this expansion. Not even any cool animals to tame aside from Savage.
Although, perhaps I'm also just an awful player. I play for fun, not to raid or PVP, so I don't pay TOO much attention to things like nerfs and buffs, and I also don't pay attention to new spec builds. Thinking about it, it's probably just me.

But my warlock is doing awesome!

[Nemesis003]

Marks needs a rebuild, but blizzard won't ever do it. They are more worried about making classes like locks and mages mechanically sound, or adding new machanics to monks. The class that has ALWAYS been the last on the list for attention has always been hunters even from the orginal wow beta.

Marks needs to be build into something that doesn't use a pet. Then you have 3 unique specs, a pet heavy spec a "magic" heavy spec and a bow heavy spec. All are within the same class but all have new flavor.

[Asaki]

Personally, I'm quite curious if lowering the cast time of Aimed Shot will have a lot of impact. As Chimera Shot hits like a wet towel and Serpent Sting is quite cheap, it might be worth stacking lots of haste and see how it turns out with just using aimed shot. Note to self; time to head over to the PTR!

[Nemesis003]

Personally, I'm quite curious if lowering the cast time of Aimed Shot will have a lot of impact. As Chimera Shot hits like a wet towel and Serpent Sting is quite cheap, it might be worth stacking lots of haste and see how it turns out with just using aimed shot. Note to self; time to head over to the PTR!

it won't do anything. What it is doing is giving you the haste applied to AiS that the 4pc t14 give you without that bonus. Makrs is 8-10% behind right now so the buff will basically do nothing different then what it has now. Marks will continue to suck until they actaully put effort in to hunters which is not ever likely to happen.

[Thiron]

it won't do anything. What it is doing is giving you the haste applied to AiS that the 4pc t14 give you without that bonus. Makrs is 8-10% behind right now so the buff will basically do nothing different then what it has now. Marks will continue to suck until they actaully put effort in to hunters which is not ever likely to happen.

I'll disagree that it does nothing. Sure, it gives benefit similar to 4pT14, but on the other hand, other specs don't get that buff. So it's like comparing MM with 4p VS other specs without 4p.
Still not enough though.

[Deleted]

The major problem is that no one is playing it. Considering we have dual spec and SV/BM are all we need right now, how many people actually go out and try the spec?

You are wrong on that one. Plenty of people try Marksmanship, me included. I do LFR mainly as Marksmanship and I play Marksmanship anywhere else from doing dailies, to PvPing, to dungeons and just when I'm flying around and killing rares. But the moment our raid starts the first thing I do is swap the spec back to Survival. Marksmanship is quite far behind* and it has no purpose this tier.

*The amount and if it's considered far may vary from person to person.

[Noctifer616]

You are wrong on that one. Plenty of people try Marksmanship, me included. I do LFR mainly as Marksmanship and I play Marksmanship anywhere else from doing dailies, to PvPing, to dungeons and just when I'm flying around and killing rares. But the moment our raid starts the first thing I do is swap the spec back to Survival. Marksmanship is quite far behind* and it has no purpose this tier.

So you never actually tested MM in your raids, only LFR? So you actually never tested MM.

[Deleted]

So you never actually tested MM in your raids, only LFR? So you actually never tested MM.

I did once, the damage was far below the other two specs. After that I decided it wasn't worth dragging my raid down to play a spec I felt like playing. My point was that I play Marksmanship all the time about everywhere. But when it's time to be serious I wouldn't dare touching Marksmanship.

[Meleti]

I can't claim to be good at MM, but it seems a solid 5-10% behind both BM and SV. It might actually be even with SV on single target, but it's certainly worse than SV on AOE fights. This is with 4pc t14 (a fantastic MM bonus) and solid haste gear, so I can't imagine that losing t14 is going to help MM at all.

Basically, MM doesn't have a niche. It's not equal to our other specs, it's actually quite a bit worse (not unplayable, but worse). It needs either a numbers push to make it more even with BM for single target, or it needs to be redesigned so that it has something it does better than either spec.

Until then MM is mostly going to be a PVP spec for people who want controllable burst.

[WarBringerPT]

I did once, the damage was far below the other two specs. After that I decided it wasn't worth dragging my raid down to play a spec I felt like playing. My point was that I play Marksmanship all the time about everywhere. But when it's time to be serious I wouldn't dare touching Marksmanship.

This.
I have tried hc msv and hc hof as a MM hunter, and it did not go as well as I thought it could. You can do 110% on that spec and still be miles away from the rest of the raid. And since we always have 2 hunters in the raid, i can compare my results with his, with him being surv in all the fights.
It's simply not that good, not having a niche to fill. As a MM hunter, we don't have enough aoe vs surv (1st trash packs in HoF, I can't compete in any way, shape or form vs a surv hunter). I like that I can do 3 multi shots free of focus with ToTH, giving me tons of multi shot dmg, but that vs serpent spread+ISS? Good luck.
In single target dps, it is too clunky. Sure, having the buff fom Steady focus increased to 20 seconds is a good quality of life improve, but it's just that. in those 20 seconds, we are forced to do the steady shot pairs, due to lack of focus.
And single target dps, vs a bursty bm hunter, pfft. chimera shot has a 9 seconds cd, which I think it's too big of a cd for the dmg it does(vs a 6 sec KC and a 6 sec Explo shot).
They need to either up the dmg done on some skills, or redesign MM. I would like to see aimed shot as focus dump on MM imo, rather than arcane shot.

[Deleted]

One could think that a company that brings in around 163200000$ monthly on game time only could atleast hire a developer team that actually knows how to bring some balance to the specs.
This is more or less their duty when they have a game that 9.6 million people are paying for, been waiting for this since Molten Core but it never seems to happen.
It's rather tragic that me and many others that raid at a high level haven't been able to play our favorite spec since firelands.

[Deleted]

It's rather tragic that me and many others that raid at a high level haven't been able to play our favorite spec since firelands.

In my opinion, part of high level raiding is min/maxing in any way you can. That includes changing talents per fight as well as switching to whichever spec ends up higher. While I would like to see Marksmanship make a return I honestly don't mind playing Beast Mastery. What I care about is seeing the highest numbers or doing my job (like soaking sparks on Will). My spec and talents are merely a tool to achieve that.

[Nemesis003]

In my opinion, part of high level raiding is min/maxing in any way you can. That includes changing talents per fight as well as switching to whichever spec ends up higher. While I would like to see Marksmanship make a return I honestly don't mind playing Beast Mastery. What I care about is seeing the highest numbers or doing my job (like soaking sparks on Will). My spec and talents are merely a tool to achieve that.

while progressing at the highest level is fun for some, some would also like the option to play what they enjoy playing while being in a top 100 guild.

Personally for me i like how BM played but in 5.2 with t15 and a nature damage based meta em SV will be the best spec in all areas single target and AoE, i dislike SV but i will have to play it to stay part of the roster in my guild. This is a game and people should be able to play what they want and still compete for world and server firsts.

the excuse of MM had its time, is simply that and excuse. Its the poor dev staff at blizzard either being bad at their job or lazy to the point where they simply don't care to balance the game properly. It is just bad management to allow certin spec for any class to be "useless" for high end raiding. ust like it was pure laziness on the devs part to have things like mechanical buffs not work the same for all classes.

[Uncle Julian]

Marks needs a rebuild, but blizzard won't ever do it. They are more worried about making classes like locks and mages mechanically sound, or adding new machanics to monks. The class that has ALWAYS been the last on the list for attention has always been hunters even from the orginal wow beta.

Marks needs to be build into something that doesn't use a pet. Then you have 3 unique specs, a pet heavy spec a "magic" heavy spec and a bow heavy spec. All are within the same class but all have new flavor.

Never thought about that before, but I really like that idea, 3 unique specs that aren't as generic to one another.