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  1. #161
    "Keynesianism got the US out of the recession" DAFUQ?! Government intervention and regulation both causes and prolongs recessions.
    You do know that Keynsian economics isn't a synonym for government intervention right?

    And recessions are natural market events.
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  2. #162
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
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    Well I don't care for Ron Paul, and I don't know nearly anything about Rand. But all I want is a government that stays out of everyone's business. I want my president to be a commander in chief, not an overzealous babysitter and a moral crusader. The Dems and the GOP both agitate the shit out of me, constantly forcing their beliefs on everyone. The federal government should be there to run the military and state department. Tax me enough to do that, and then leave me alone. Everything else should be left to local governments. There is no reason that communities can't run their own affairs.

  3. #163
    Except the Constitution gives them the authority to do more than that. And I could link you dozens of reasons why local communities shouldn't always be running their own affairs.
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  4. #164
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Except the Constitution gives them the authority to do more than that. And I could link you dozens of reasons why local communities shouldn't always be running their own affairs.
    The constitution allows them a lot of vague and expansive power. That doesn't mean they are required to exercise all of that power. Just because the government can be my babysitter doesn't mean it should.

    On top of that, America is not a remotely homogenous nation. No matter what our government does, if it forces it on the entire country then half the country will always be unhappy with every decision. And because one side wins some battles, and the other side wins the rest, everyone is going to be unhappy all the time.

    People in California should not have any say on how people in New York live.

  5. #165
    Simple fix, make it less expensive to simply produce goods and services here in the states.

    Make importing goods so insanely expensive that businesses are "inclined" to do the work here and pay a fair wage to its employees. Also a reduction in exporting costs on our end wouldn't hurt either. There is no need to remain overseas for cheap labor if in the end the cost is higher than if the job was done here, paying Minimum wage of 9$ per hour or better.

    Access our own oil shale, natural gas, thermal energy, clean burning coal technologies, hydroelectricity as well our solar wind and sun projects would go a long way to decrease costs for energy usage here in the states as well, decreasing our dependence on foreign oil.

    We should become a leader again in the world through industry and putting Americans back to work, and do everything we can to become more self sufficient with policies that protect jobs at home and stop promoting the outsourcing of jobs overseas.

    Cut the bleeding as it pertains to our social security fund, remove the access congress has to it, and put in place a bill that begins repaying that as a debt to the american people owed by the government, and put protective measures in place that ensure it can never be accessed again. When this goes bankrupt in the coming years that means its all gone. We pay social security taxes with the promise of security at retirement and instead the money is literally being stolen from us as a way to tax us even more.

    Some things that would actually begin to help IMO.

  6. #166
    Sure, but the government still should do a lot of things aside from operate a military. Like regulate interstate commerce. That one is pretty nice.

    Homogenous or not, that doesn't preclude local governments from doing awful shit nor does it mean the federal government and the DoJ shouldn't step in when they do. You want tax payer money for schools? Fantastic! But fuck off if you're teaching intelligent design. Or making it harder for minorities to vote. Or running a piece of shit police department, etc etc.

    Honestly for all the worrying that libertarians and the like do about the federal government I would hazard a guess that the states are guilty of far greater breaches of freedom and liberty. And it makes sense. When you have a larger pool like you do at the federal level, its harder for the crazy to get in charge.

    And I agree people in California should stay out of New Yorker's business. Unless New York is violating the rights of its citizens or wanting to use Federal money. Which is what we do now.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 05:21 AM ----------

    But like it or not Kalyyn, your ship has sailed here. Federalism is the the way of the country now. And we're better for it. Some times that means dragging some areas kicking and screaming into the modern world but so be it.
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  7. #167
    Brewmaster Klingers's Avatar
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    What the hell is it about American politics?

    There's got to be some happy medium between the government getting all up in your shit and the government throwing everyone to the wolves with zero social support, saying "everyone for themselves!".

    You should also be able to find a place in that medium whee you can still step on the throats of big companies when they engage in what could best be described as corporate bastardry.

    Someone should get on that.
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  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post
    What the hell is it about American politics?

    There's got to be some happy medium between the government getting all up in your shit and the government throwing everyone to the wolves with zero social support, saying "everyone for themselves!".

    You should also be able to find a place in that medium whee you can still step on the throats of big companies when they engage in what could best be described as corporate bastardry.

    Someone should get on that.
    Despite what you might hear, with the exception of some surveillance issues thats largely where Obama is. Right in the center.
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  9. #169
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Sure, but the government still should do a lot of things aside from operate a military. Like regulate interstate commerce. That one is pretty nice.

    Homogenous or not, that doesn't preclude local governments from doing awful shit nor does it mean the federal government and the DoJ shouldn't step in when they do. You want tax payer money for schools? Fantastic! But fuck off if you're teaching intelligent design. Or making it harder for minorities to vote. Or running a piece of shit police department, etc etc.

    Honestly for all the worrying that libertarians and the like do about the federal government I would hazard a guess that the states are guilty of far greater breaches of freedom and liberty. And it makes sense. When you have a larger pool like you do at the federal level, its harder for the crazy to get in charge.

    And I agree people in California should stay out of New Yorker's business. Unless New York is violating the rights of its citizens or wanting to use Federal money. Which is what we do now.
    Frankly, I can't disagree with anything you just said. Blatant violations of American rights are definite cause for federal interference. But, a short list of things that should be left entirely to state authority in my opinion: Drinking laws, tobacco laws, gun laws, business laws, minimum wage, education standards, licensing, etc.

    And fortunately, most of those things are partially the domain of the state. But there does, on each of those items, exist a power struggle between the state and federal levels.

    Now, you'll see I mentioned education in there. As I expressed before, I agree that schools should not be paid to teach intelligent design. You may not know this, but I am a man who holds science in high regard. But, my issue with federally regulated education comes in the form of standardized testing. It is ruining our school systems. In high school, my teachers all seemed to have a consistent mantra: teach the test, not the subject. It's because changes in the standardized testing laws made it so that their pay was based upon their student's performance in nationally mandated tests. These tests were so imposing that they left little time for actual discussion on any given subject. Rather, we were basically taught to memorize facts and dates which would appear on these tests. That is not real learning. Mindlessly regurgitating static answer on to a multiple-choice sheet does not represent any sort of comprehension.

    This is what happens when you have the federal government peering over everyone's shoulder. The problem is that national government is too high above the rest of us. They don't understand what it's like down here, for the common man. They write laws about things they've never experienced. And so we end up with things like the No Child Left Behind laws. Don't get me wrong, these laws are made with only the most benevolent intent. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

  10. #170
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Returning to gold standard to save economy is like returning to horse-drawn carriages to reduce pollution.
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  11. #171
    What drinking laws or tobacco laws are federal? Gun laws? Because 99% of the time these are either actually state laws, things the state agreed to do for federal money, or interstate commerce issues.

    RE: education. Your issue seems to be with what is a legitimate issue with our educational system. But what it isn't is an issue of federalism, or even necessarily the federal government. Until recently the biggest standardized test in my state was put there by the state. Should we not be using these tests? No probably not. But that's not really what we're talking about.

    The federal government's involvement in education, which is the purview of the state is a win win though. States get much needed money for their education programs, and we get to make sure some backwater in the South isn't teaching that the Loch Ness Monster disproves evolution.
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  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    Returning to gold standard to save economy is like returning to horse-drawn carriages to reduce pollution.
    That is no where near a proper metaphor. US currency was backed by gold until the 1980s, when it was outlawed. Without it we have no way to show our debt, and our money is fiat. Or if you'd like worth less than the paper it's printed on. Not only that but with inflation the dollar is worth one-twentieth of its value from the 20s. More money in the economy is not logically equivalent to more wealth.

    Our money is supposed to be backed by precious metals, as written in the Constitution. But so much for that, it's an old piece of paper that needs to be thrown away and forgotten.

  13. #173
    As the economy grew the money supply had to as well. And our money is backed by the economic might of the world's only super power. That sure as shit beats a bunch of heavy metals in a vault that has no use outside of high end electronics.
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  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    As the economy grew the money supply had to as well. And our money is backed by the economic might of the world's only super power. That sure as shit beats a bunch of heavy metals in a vault that has no use outside of high end electronics.
    Yeah, well a money backed by fear only lasts so long. Having something physical that actually has some worth is a bt more stable than something sbstract.

  15. #175
    Its not backed by fear. It backed by our massive economy and ridiculous level of wealth.

    You want something physical backing our money? We have raw materials, factories, TVs, cars and on and on backing it up.

    Gold has no intrinsic value that is not shared by fiat currency.
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  16. #176
    I am Murloc! Garnier Fructis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    Yeah, well a money backed by fear only lasts so long. Having something physical that actually has some worth is a bt more stable than something sbstract.
    Have you the proofs of this?
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  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Its not backed by fear. It backed by our massive economy and ridiculous level of wealth.

    You want something physical backing our money? We have raw materials, factories, TVs, cars and on and on backing it up.

    Gold has no intrinsic value that is not shared by fiat currency.
    Government assistance programs have numbers at an all time high. Who exactly has this wealth that you speak of? Having a TV or a car doesnt back the value of the dollar. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about this time Wells.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 01:05 AM ----------
    It’s quite clear that there’s no constitutional authority for the federal government to be involved in education, regardless of what the Supreme Courthas claimed. Ideally, education in a free society would be the responsibility of the parents or the individual or local community, not the government. There is no constitutional prohibition for states or local communities to be involved in education, and up until the mid-twentieth century, education was the responsibility of the church, the family, and the local community.
    In the past sixty years especially, the federal government has become very much involved in financing and directing education at all levels. There is no evidence that quality of education has improved. There is evidence that more people go to college and that the cost has skyrocketed. At the grade school and high school levels, where local schools and parents have ever less control over the curriculum and administration of schools, there’s definitely been more violence, more drugs, and more dropouts associated with more centralized control. Competition is helpful in any endeavor. And this is true in education.
    Last edited by Linkedblade; 2013-02-14 at 06:07 AM.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    Government assistance programs have numbers at an all time high.
    So? The economy is slow and wages are stagnant. It stands to reason.
    Who exactly has this wealth that you speak of? Having a TV or a car doesnt back the value of the dollar.
    It really does. That is wealth. The homes we own are wealth. But you're also being fairly obtuse. You're talking about the poor and lower class. They have almost none of the wealth in the country. The rich have absurd levels of it. So again, our currency is backed by the fact that we're the wealthiest country humanity has ever seen. That beats the shit out of gold.

    Not to mention we can control it. You can't control the value of gold via government.

    What happens if the industrial need for gold spikes? Or new deposits are found? What if a foreign body uses the gold supply to destabilize our economy?
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  19. #179
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    It's not illogical to say that we are one of the wealthiest nations in the world while simultaneously having a great deal of people who are without a great deal of wealth.

  20. #180
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    Government assistance programs have numbers at an all time high. Who exactly has this wealth that you speak of? Having a TV or a car doesnt back the value of the dollar. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about this time Wells.
    Strangely enough, I have to side with Wells on the gold standard issue. I've never understood how gold is inherently valuable. Because we say it is? But isn't that how our money works now? I mean, what can you do with gold? You can make jewelry and computer chips. That's about it. You know what things do have actual, tangible value? Canned food. Bullets. Gasoline. If society somehow collapsed, these are the things people would care about. Nobody is going to give two shits about some flimsy, shiny metal when their life is on the line. If you want to back our currency with something valuable, back it with food, bullets, and oil.

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