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  1. #1
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Sha of Fear NM, how much raid DPS needed?

    What is the minimum amount of DPS you need to kill Sha (yes, my guild killed 2 new bosses in row last night)? Specially to kill the pandas on the platforms. As what kept killing us was the fact that I was sent away before the other tank got back. I died cause Sha kept attacking me from distance as other tank was not in circle.

    The tank who got sent away first believes that if all the orbs were picked up, and lot let the panda heal himself, they would've gotten back just in time. But again not sure.

    For now our DPS is clearly not enough (we had our best of the best along last night) and other things need to be worked out as well, but I am really interested in minimum raid/personal DPS you need to kill Panda/Boss.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7...ses&boss=60999 (most probably the logs are not correct, as if it works like Gara'jal, then the people who are on platform don't show up in WoL) <- before any of you go "your raiders suck, too low DPS yadayadayada", then I know that we need more DPS, I know that our raiders need better gear and weapons. I just want to know the minimum DPS from you experience needed for a kill. We're 2 healing.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished ||6/14 HC 25-man w/ my HC PUG
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  2. #2
    Not too much, I think the real dps check is for the platforms.

    3 dps+tank and healer sent to each platform and you have 90 secs to kill an add with 14.4m health. That means you need 53k dps per dps not including tank dps or healing from orbs.


    Provided you can kill your platform, you can likely kill the boss. Calculating overall dps isn't feasible since people are on other platforms, killing adds, and have a damage buff for parts of it.

    I can tell you from the platforms of the longest pull you had, the 2 adds healed for a combined 6 m from your log. That seems like alot. (roughly 25% of their combined health)

    On the platforms, it should primarily be the tank and healer picking up the orbs unless you have really mobile dps. Its worth noting that a total of 5 orbs hit on the platform your paladin tank was on and he was only able to pick up 8. It looks like on that pull it was the druid on his platform with him and he only took damage from 3. This means that a total of 16 orbs came out and only half were picked up by your tank and healer. (This doesn't include dps but they shouldn't be focusing on that)


    Edit: Looking at it a bit more. Your dps picked up a total of 13 orbs which makes the total a bit more favorable, ( 29 orbs out, 21 picked up) but it still has heavy distribution on the dps. Should focus more on that.
    Last edited by Nangz; 2013-02-13 at 07:08 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    Not too much, I think the real dps check is for the platforms.

    3 dps+tank and healer sent to each platform and you have 90 secs to kill an add with 14.4m health. That means you need 53k dps per dps not including tank dps or healing from orbs.
    This seems very low ... we have much better dps than this and our biggest problem (both before we killed it but also during our kills) was getting that panda down before the other group got ported out.

    Hitting up a calculator says you're right ... I watch the panda's health to see if he's getting healed but I guess I'm missing a lot of him getting health back. I mean, I do around 65k (give or take a few k) just on the target dummy only self-buffed ... I'm not sure if aura buffs reach out that far so maybe we're not fully raid buffed on the platforms, but I still have flask/food/non-aura-buffs and the other dps/tank/healer for any aura buffs they might be bringing ... yeah, I'm one of our higher dps, but typically when I'm there it's the tank and I who gather most of the orbs, and I lose no dps since I'm specced into KJC, meaning with the tank also the others don't have to be doing even just 53k ... this is mind-boggling for me.

  4. #4
    Well thats the raw dps, its an easy calculation but I suppose it doesn't factor in time for moving los of the death blossom so it is probably a bit higher. Check your logs and see how much the panda was healing for. They heal for 5% each so its quite significant.

    Edit: Something else I should mention. During Death Blossom, your tank should not be LOSing, he should be taking the full damage ( it doesn't hit that hard) to pick up orbs. The panda could heal for 20% or more during it. Tanks can pop a cd if needed, it certainly isn't any other time. Dread spray damage can be avoided so the only healing on that platform should be the globes and the tank shots hes taking from the panda.

    If your dps are struggling with it, suggest to them to try this addon. It helps!

    http://wow.curseforge.com/addons/dreadspray_vr/

    Edit 2: Checked logs to see if dread spray fear was an issue. The 3 dps on the platform of the parse I was looking at each got feared 3 times. That can't happen. Once at most and even that is too much. Try the addon, its quite nice.
    Last edited by Nangz; 2013-02-13 at 07:20 AM.

  5. #5
    We typically blow healer CDs and stay in for Death Blossom. And even when we don't (CDs not available), at least I am able to maintain full dps even when LOSing due to Drain Soul being maintained if I cast it before LOSing. I'll SB:SS to refresh my dots, start Drain Soul, then LOS, and Death Blossom is over before any dots fall off.

    But yeah I'll check my logs to see if he's getting healed. He must be.

  6. #6
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    The orbs possible was one of the big issues. I have not made to the platform alive myself (being the second one to go), so I cannot truly comment what goes on there. But I will have to stress it that healer/tank collect all the orbs, no buts.

    As usually for the second Panda I was one/two-shotted and those who remained died anyway soon. So probably that's why the total healing on the Pandas is that high.

    Like with the rest of the fight it comes down to people paying attention and listening what is told ^^, of which we are working on. But it is good to hear that the DPS needed is not that high. So with more gear and better awarness we have shot at it.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-02-13 at 07:18 AM.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished ||6/14 HC 25-man w/ my HC PUG
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  7. #7
    Edited my post a few times after discovering some new stuff.

    edit: if you want to see for yourself the fears, check each dps's buffs gained. CHeck under debuffs and look for dread spray. You have to click both dread sprays "#" and under the graph, when you mouseover the duration, if it shows 2 stacks, that represents a fear.

  8. #8
    omfg I just looked at the log of our latest kill; the pandas were healed for an embarrassing amount. I hope the overwhelming majority of that came from platform phases we didn't have available healer cds and everyone had to LOS, but still ... ugh.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 07:23 AM ----------

    Oh for a little bit on our first night of attempts we had folks using that Dread Spray addon ... and it resulted in the pandas getting healed way too much as folks were more focused on not getting feared than with picking up orbs. Your mileage may vary, of course -- if your folks can manage to not tunnel vision it would probably be for the best. But for my group I recommended that if anyone use the addon it should only be the healers.

  9. #9
    Just remember that the healer and the tank can pretty much ignore the dread spray. ( Though the healer should not kill himself) Picking up the orbs is the most important thing, and during the death blossom the tank can get all the orbs. New ones won't spawn during the blossom so he can clean them up.

  10. #10
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    The addon is a very nice touch and I will surely recommend it. Other way would be to memorize the graphs in IV :P. Lot of things for us need to be sorted before we will manage to kill him. But thanks for the discussion so far.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 11:22 AM ----------

    By any chance any of you can offer some class specific advice for Panda platforms, other then the "save CD for Panda platforms as much as possible"? <- Though this is hard to do as no one knows who get sent of the DPS there.

    We have 2 DPS warriors, 1 rogue, 1 hunter, 1 spriest. But possible a mw or balance druid (both are healers OSs). And in the future a mage and lock as well.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-02-13 at 09:24 AM.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished ||6/14 HC 25-man w/ my HC PUG
    Moderator of R & D | Open Raid

  11. #11
    There isn't too many class specific advice. Ranged should stand near the panda so they can step through him to avoid dread spray if needed. This makes it harder to get out of the Death Blossom though. Saving your cds is very class specific, some can some don't need to. In 10 man though, you will only be sent to the platform every 3 minutes so if you can save a dps cd, it will be up every time.


    Shouldn't really need healer cds since only the tank should be soaking death blossom and it doesn't hit hard on tanks.

  12. #12
    Pandaren Monk Redpanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    The addon is a very nice touch and I will surely recommend it. Other way would be to memorize the graphs in IV :P. Lot of things for us need to be sorted before we will manage to kill him. But thanks for the discussion so far.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 11:22 AM ----------

    By any chance any of you can offer some class specific advice for Panda platforms, other then the "save CD for Panda platforms as much as possible"? <- Though this is hard to do as no one knows who get sent of the DPS there.

    We have 2 DPS warriors, 1 rogue, 1 hunter, 1 spriest. But possible a mw or balance druid (both are healers OSs). And in the future a mage and lock as well.
    I would say of your group give certain outs for them to grab bubbles in deathblossom. if you have your boomkin or lock with a paladin they can get bopped through it or use a defensive. might of ursoc aswell pluss one ns+ht and he should be okay. if you are on your feral simbi pally and you can bubble 1 and survival instincts the next time around and use your ps procs. rogue can feignt+ rallying complain from the warriors granted they are split up. hunter can soak some after taking 2 hits pop deter and it should last the remaining duration.

    or have tanks do it. the dps thing is if your dps is proactive

  13. #13
    The dudes on the terrace have 14.4m health and you have 90 seconds to kill them.

    If you just take the dps from the DD's (and not the tank) thats 53.3k needed each. It becomes a disaster when people don't pick up the orbs and he heals. We have people spread lightly around the platform and everyone needs to pick up orbs close to them. You do get mana back etc from grabbing orbs and since the dps check is minor, emphasis should be on orbs above dps all the time. As a paladin I also BoP our healer and by now the dps have figured out what CD's they need to live should they choose to stay out for deathblossom.

    Since its 90 seconds and you only get cackled every 2nd time that means you can line up 3 minute CD's with this perfectly.

    It's no problem at all to hold off on dps CD's until the first group is cackled. You can plan your CD's from there. The main boss itself isn't a dps race at all in any way shape or form. Be consistent in killing the pandas at the shrines and the boss will die (assuming you dont derp to breaths etc)

    The platforms take a bit of learning but once people manage them you will never look back.

    Also, alternate which tank pulls while you learn the fight so you get to see the platforms for yourself, in my experience its always the tank that pulls that gets cackled first.

    **Edit, I'm not being clear enough! No, if's, buts or maybes. Save ALL dps CD's for the platforms, bursting down an extra 2% on the main boss at the start matters not if you can't get back from a cackle in time, its a wipe if you don't.
    Last edited by Deja Thoris; 2013-02-13 at 11:59 PM.

  14. #14
    Vaguely - if your DPS can kill archers before next tank gets pulled out, then you are fine.
    Statistically - You want every DPS to pull minimum 80k DPS (90~100k is optimal) in Elite protectors.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    omfg I just looked at the log of our latest kill; the pandas were healed for an embarrassing amount. I hope the overwhelming majority of that came from platform phases we didn't have available healer cds and everyone had to LOS, but still ... ugh.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 07:23 AM ----------

    Oh for a little bit on our first night of attempts we had folks using that Dread Spray addon ... and it resulted in the pandas getting healed way too much as folks were more focused on not getting feared than with picking up orbs. Your mileage may vary, of course -- if your folks can manage to not tunnel vision it would probably be for the best. But for my group I recommended that if anyone use the addon it should only be the healers.
    The tank should be the one picking up all orbs, where dps and healers can help if they have to. That way, the add goes down really quick, and dps can focus on doing what they do best.

  16. #16
    If you have trouble with the orbs. Try cutting the shrine into pieces. If you have 5 dps one of them is a melee you have 2 range 1 heal 1 tank. Each of them take 1/4 of the shrine. Have your tanks and heal pick up most of the orbs if you see your tank not beeing able to pick up an orb that is in your quarter help him.

  17. #17
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the wonderful advice. I will suggest the addon (works very nicely on platforms, as I got to test it out in LFR). Maybe it helps people to pay more attention. We'll try to kill the first 3 again in ToES and then take on Sha again
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished ||6/14 HC 25-man w/ my HC PUG
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  18. #18
    Mechagnome
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    We used ShaOfFearAssist addon for spray, I guess both addons are pretty much same.
    If you dps is low, have tank just focus on getting the orbs (after geting aggro), with healer helping (for mana regen), and DPS sometimes gathering the orbs during dodging.
    My group would have trouble if 2 orbs get through, and our dps is higher, so I think it's a must that you don't get any at all.
    If your healers are epic enough, you might even want to stay for all of death blossom just to push it. If not, at least tank should stay using cooldowns. Hunter can also stay and gather orbs with Deterrence, and Shadow Priest with Dispersion. Not sure about rogue with evasion - might work, but I doubt it.
    Old Gods made me do it.

  19. #19
    dps-wise, if you can get to sha you can kill it. if you have weak dpsers that can't kill their platform if they get grouped together, have them save their cooldowns for the platform.

  20. #20
    Elemental Lord Hyve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nangz View Post
    Not too much, I think the real dps check is for the platforms.
    Essentially, this is all you need to worry about. If your Tanks can return to the main stage, without the timer on the next Cackle being to tight, you'll get the kill. If you're struggling a bit, I'd recommend leaving the DPS on the Platforms to nuke the add, while the tank clears up the orbs. Warriors, Hunters & Rogues would benefit from the orbs (Faster resource generation = More DPS) but from what I've found, unless there is a orb close, the movement doesn't tend to be worth the DPS increase.

    It totally depends on your team though. We've only had around 4 - 5 pulls on him so far, so I'm hardly in a position to tell you exactly what to do.

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