Horde are supposed to be BAD/EVIL. Garrosh is the best thing to happen to the Horde.

[Pisholina]

You know, when WoW first started, the Alliance was the "evil" faction. The Nobles of Stormwind were corrupted. The Night Elves were lead by a crazy Arch Druid. The Gnomes didn't really do anything and the Dwarves just wanted to kill every Dark Iron. During that time, the Horde was lead by Vol'Jin, Cairne and Thrall on Kalimdor, and all three of them are peaceful and don't rush to war. Sylvanas was really the only leader that wanted the faction war.

Now it's a bit switched with Varian back and cooled off. Thrall left and took over the Horde and his first act as a Warchief was kill Cairne. The roles actually switched with Alliance being the good guys and Horde acting like bad guys, although the Forsaken show a lot of redeeming qualities for themselves.

[babo7000]

Vanilla Forsaken is how the Horde (par Taurens) should be.

They have a few bad ones, but as a whole they are a people who are trying to survive in a world that doesn't welcome them, and will do whatever is needed to ensure their continued survival.

The problem with this is, if one of those bad ones gets a hold of power (Garrosh), then the Horde can quickly spiral downwards.

[Crashdummy]

Garrosh should not die just like that, he is the best Warchief who ever had the Horde.

His death will be a great loss in terms of the history of the Horde... hopefully he can be redeemed and continue to honor the memory of Hellscream clan.

The Warchief who has done more for the Horde should not be murdered by his own subjects... is a very poor development of events.

And if for some reason he can not be redeemed and remain in the Horde, his place is undoubtedly being the leader of the Dark Horde: a new era reborns.

Dont worry, Thrall's subjects wont kill Thrall.

By the way, Garrosh has done more harm to the Horde than the alliance has, ever. He is vreaking the horde apart, he is destroying all the honor, pride and sense of respect the horde has.

He is nothing more than the evil character in a kids tale story. He is Cruella De Vil, He is the Queen of Hearts, nothing more.

He is a joke to an otherwise well written lore. He needs to die and Thrall needs to come back, so the horde recovers the glory it has under Thrall's leadership.

[Skytotem]

You know, when WoW first started, the Alliance was the "evil" faction. The Nobles of Stormwind were corrupted. The Night Elves were lead by a crazy Arch Druid. The Gnomes didn't really do anything and the Dwarves just wanted to kill every Dark Iron. During that time, the Horde was lead by Vol'Jin, Cairne and Thrall on Kalimdor, and all three of them are peaceful and don't rush to war. Sylvanas was really the only leader that wanted the faction war.

Now it's a bit switched with Varian back and cooled off. Thrall left and took over the Horde and his first act as a Warchief was kill Cairne. The roles actually switched with Alliance being the good guys and Horde acting like bad guys, although the Forsaken show a lot of redeeming qualities for themselves.

1. That doesn't make them evil, that makes them suffer from internal conflict, Staghelm was not 'leading' he and Tyrande shared power. And the Dark Irons were invading the dwarves, they just wanted to defend themselves.

2. Yes Thrall was so peaceful he had forces in Ashenvale and didn't do anything about the forsaken in ashenvale and sent a war party to kill dwarves in 1k needles.

3. What redeeming qualities have the Forsaken shown?

[Penguintamer]

Sorry but Garrosh is making the Horde = the Orcs. And that ain't gonna fly

[Verdugo]

3. What redeeming qualities have the Forsaken shown?

They dont see light as a good thing.

[Aquamonkey]

3. What redeeming qualities have the Forsaken shown?

1. Loyalty... even though it's to a psychopath. At least they have a sense of loyalty.
2. They're useful as canon fodder.
3. They have skilled apothecaries.

[Skytotem]

1. Loyalty... even though it's to a psychopath. At least they have a sense of loyalty.
2. They're useful as canon fodder.
3. They have skilled apothecaries.

1. Ah yes, Stillwater was so loyal, just like Putress and Godfrey and those guys who went to Dalaran in Vanilla... Sylvanas has been betrayed just as much if not more than any other faction leader.

2./3. are not really 'redeeming' qualities so much as killsets the forsaken have.

[Northem]

Well, there's no indication Thrall is going to be murdered by his subjects.

Dont worry, Thrall's subjects wont kill Thrall.

Actually, one of two, or you are too simple or you pretend to be sarcastic, in either case I do not expect anything good from the children of the Horde. No wonder that the Horde is willing to betray their Warchief... because that's what they are: a set of treacherous races that only beget the evil for whither they go.

I'll clarify it since it has not been clear:

Garrosh Hellscream has been, is and will be the greatest warchief that the Horde could ever have: technological advances, new raw materials and resources, renewed alliances with former allies, new lands conquered, unprecedented firepower, etc etc.
In short: Garrosh has made possible that the Horde can be proud of itself, and how their subjects will pay him? Betraying him!

But your beloved Go'el all he did was to establish their people in the desert, to die slowly and left them in the most critical time in order to fornicate with an orc and become the Savior of the World.

In fact now that I think... yeah... kill your leader please! That would further weaken the Horde, and so the Alliance will know take better advantage of the situation...

[StationaryHawk]

Do you really want a game where each faction is a shade of grey....

Yes. Because rarely is there a defined "good" and "evil" faction in reality.

And since the Horde is supposed to be whatever Blizzard makes them out to be, I'd say that they're not supposed to be "BAD/EVIL."

[Warfang]

Thrall is the only way you could have any honour. "Noble Savage" is an oxymoron. You are noble or you're savage and it has nothing to do with whether you live in a hut or a castle or wear warpaint or shining armour when you go to battle...

Your version of honor or nobility is different from some one else's. Just look at the world we really live in. Different cultures offer different views on honor. Sure, some aspects may bleed over from one to another, but that's because even though we live in different areas and our societies evolved differently we are all still the same group of people.

If you say that a savage can't have honor, you are saying he can't live up to your definition of honor. Maybe that savage finds honor in combat. You might find it in academics. You can't just push your view of honor on everything and call it good.

[AlamarAtMMOC]

I'd like to play a more intently evil faction which is why I favour the forsaken as a race, sometimes being evil is just fun.

But I don't think it would work for the entire horde.

I occasionally like to play the evil race too, which is why I chose a Human ; )

-Alamar

[Crashdummy]

Actually, one of two, or you are too simple or you pretend to be sarcastic, in either case I do not expect anything good from the children of the Horde. No wonder that the Horde is willing to betray their Warchief... because that's what they are: a set of treacherous races that only beget the evil for whither they go.

I'll clarify it since it has not been clear:

Garrosh Hellscream has been, is and will be the greatest warchief that the Horde could ever have: technological advances, new raw materials and resources, renewed alliances with former allies, new lands conquered, unprecedented firepower, etc etc.
In short: Garrosh has made possible that the Horde can be proud of itself, and how their subjects will pay him? Betraying him!

But your beloved Go'el all he did was to establish their people in the desert, to die slowly and left them in the most critical time in order to fornicate with an orc and become the Savior of the World.

In fact now that I think... yeah... kill your leader please! That would further weaken the Horde, and so the Alliance will know take better advantage of the situation...

You are dreaming... haha. Renewed lliances? Youmean the Dragonmaw that took a dragon aspect as a slave? Yeah, keep them. He is breaking the alliances between Orc and Tauren/Troll though, so he is effectively DESTROYING the horde.
New lands conquered? You mean lands lost.
Unprecedent firepower? He is losing in every front he tries to fight against the alliance. The only front the horde is winning something is in Eastern Kingdoms because Sylvannas told Garrosh to piss off and she took over the command.
Technological advances? Yeah, made by GOBLINS, which were included in the Horde BY THRALL.

Garrosh destroyed any honor the Horde had, and turned us into a bunch of Grunts following an idiotic stupid Grunt.

Thrall took a bunch of refugees and turn that into one of the two greatest factions in the whole Azeroth, just that.

About being treacherous, Garrosh is the traitor, he is betraying all what the horde was and taking us again into the slaves we were in the Old Horde.

You kid know nothing about the Horde, you just want your "bad azz" leader with his "bad azz". When you grow up and your teenage attitude turns into something more sophisticated and you get some common sense, you willl realize how stupid garrosh is, how he is such a bad leader, and how much we need Thrall.

[HammerofJack]

Only way I see Horde as evil is with the Undead. Other than this, I wouldn't describe them as evil, because without the perversion of demonic influences, they're just brutes. So they're a rowdy bunch of brutes, that's what being Horde is about imo. Tough, prideful, strength, all that good stuff.

[Venziir]

Oh fuck yeah, I LOVE Warhammer for that!

My sarcasm sense is tingling.

Woah woah woah, Elder Scrolls' orcs are not stupid or chaotic in any sense, and orcs from HoMM are the world's prime defense against demons (because humans always end up corrupted).

But at least they are believable, they are legitimately epic. When you read about a Primarch's exploits, you keep in mind that they are even more than superhuman, and they were created that way, so when Ferrus Manus drowns a Necron monstrosity in lava with his bare fucking hands, you don't question it. And then, some characters like Commissar Yarrick, are just plain badass in the core. While Wrynn... yeah, he was abducted, split in two persons, then they both took Onyxia's deep breath which somehow miraculously solved all his problems and he oneshot her. Lol. And then he was personally blessed by a Night Elf deity he had no idea about because he's so awesome. Lolol. And now he goes through "trials" by teaching people that are supposed to be older, wiser, and more adept at ambushes and stealth tactics, he teaches them about patience - because suddenly he doesn't have rage issues that he always had and he's so awesome. Lololol.

Ahem... Primarchs were created by the Emperor himself (a deity in flesh) to be perfect, the pinnacle of all that mankind could ever achieve. It makes sense.

At least psykers have an explanation (dormant mutation), and face heavy repercussions (such as being either executed or sent to Terra to be sacrificed at the Golden Throne).

I laughed too hard at this))

Woah woah woah there too champ :P You must've misunderstood something about my orc post. My post was all about pointing out other franchises were orcs AREN'T moronic monsters who herps while derping. So we agree on that :P

And yeah sure, most of the Warhammer stuff makes sense, that's not my point at all, my point is that it's still quite cheesy.

---------- Post added 2013-02-16 at 10:50 PM ----------

Actually, one of two, or you are too simple or you pretend to be sarcastic, in either case I do not expect anything good from the children of the Horde. No wonder that the Horde is willing to betray their Warchief... because that's what they are: a set of treacherous races that only beget the evil for whither they go.

I'll clarify it since it has not been clear:

Garrosh Hellscream has been, is and will be the greatest warchief that the Horde could ever have: technological advances, new raw materials and resources, renewed alliances with former allies, new lands conquered, unprecedented firepower, etc etc.
In short: Garrosh has made possible that the Horde can be proud of itself, and how their subjects will pay him? Betraying him!

But your beloved Go'el all he did was to establish their people in the desert, to die slowly and left them in the most critical time in order to fornicate with an orc and become the Savior of the World.

In fact now that I think... yeah... kill your leader please! That would further weaken the Horde, and so the Alliance will know take better advantage of the situation...

You really are special, you know that?