Page 15 of 31 FirstFirst ...
5
13
14
15
16
17
25
... LastLast
  1. #281
    From what i've done on ptr so far pure fistweaving is viable mana wise.

  2. #282
    Well just tested everything:

    - all the new formulas are just nothing of tooltip corrections. CJL or tier 30 talents do exactly same amount fo damage / pitiful and incredibly stupid heal ( yes, yes ZS still is a hot tickiang about 5k5 with 506 ilvl, that's just GREAT ). Chi wave still does pitifull 4X 30k heal, that's just pathetic

    - with that fucking jab, our current lvie gameplay seems totally dead and gone ( perhaps we'll see a comeback with 16k + spirit unbuff in full t15 hero gear, but i even doubt about it )

    - Soothing heals for 6 HPM and 0 dps, CJL heals for 5.6 HPM and does about 50k dps while channeled, so even thought the formula was just a trick, i still think there's something to check and have a look to


    In conclusion to that glorious day : we're more or less totally screwed, devs do not play MW and don't have a clue to do with us

  3. #283
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    2,009
    Yeah, but there's no way it's going to be viable HPS-wise. We also need to be viable as pure healers or we'll only be brought in for gimmick fights.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 04:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by sakk View Post
    Well just tested everything:

    - all the new formulas are just nothing of tooltip corrections. CJL or tier 30 talents do exactly same amount fo damage / pitiful and incredibly stupid heal ( yes, yes ZS still is a hot tickiang about 5k5 with 506 ilvl, that's just GREAT ). Chi wave still does pitifull 4X 30k heal, that's just pathetic
    CJL was pretty obviously a tooltip change, since it's 6 ticks and they multiplied the amount by 6 to reflect the wording of X damage over Y seconds, instead of X' damage/second for Y seconds. What is your spell power on the PTR? It could be very low since they wiped enchants and gems during character transfer.

    - with that fucking jab, our current lvie gameplay seems totally dead and gone ( perhaps we'll see a comeback with 16k + spirit unbuff in full t15 hero gear, but i even doubt about it )
    I think this is intended... hopefully we get a viable alternative. Since there wasn't an end of season pvp blog today, it looks like there are at least 3 more weeks before the patch.

    - Soothing heals for 6 HPM and 0 dps, CJL heals for 5.6 HPM and does about 50k dps while channeled, so even thought the formula was just a trick, i still think there's something to check and have a look to
    Interesting... are you counting statue heals from Soothing? Also, Soothing is targeted and CJL is going to be random eminence healing. Plus you can't do an instant Surging Mist or Enveloping Mist from CJL. I'm not sure it'll become a core part of our gameplay, but it'll be a decent option for ranged 'fistweaving'.

  4. #284
    i did the test with 506 ilvl, gemmed and enchanted ( 26200 spell, 52500 AP , 11 500 spirit Unbuffed )

    My exact numbers are: chi burst =64/65 k
    chi wave = 29 / 31 k
    Zen sphere: 5700 ( !!!!! that's so fucking funny, it's like some Previous extension hot )

    CJL : 42k /tick --> 12k8 heal X 2 / tick with eminence
    SM : 8k8 heal X2 / tick

    They need to change some things to let us make SOME ( not lots) uplift while fistweaving and let us have some real chi generation while MW

    For FW i was thinking about some stackable buff given by jab , after 10 stacks ( given by 10 jab, for exemple) you have a free uplift ( free from chi or mana depending on wiether you glyph it or not). this could help fistweaving to anticipate burst healing and have some aoe heal, without any abuse of uplift.

    For MW, well all is said, we need a fixed chi generation on Soothing ( i'd like, for exemple, having the choice beetween 2 cheap channeled filler, as MW, CJl for eminence healing and dps but low chi generation, versus SM with no dps but a constat and stable chi generation)

    Well, we'll see in next episode

  5. #285
    Sad monk tears are sad
    /Cheesecáke - Level 90 Mistweaver
    - Nagrand EU -
    www.OMFGKittens.com - Officer

    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    Did you hurt yourself falling off the bad comparison bus?

  6. #286
    So are Blizz wanting us to use our spell casting abilities to deal with high damage and just fistweave when there's nothing much coming in?

    I've played atonement and honestly, I used to DPS the whole time, throwing out additional heals as needed. Pop my wings for higher damage and shield a few peeps as needed, but it was clearly a mix of the two.

    Since Pandaria launched I've been playing monk and have been outclassing out RShammy, HPally and Druid and loving it. Our second team has a Priest and I outclassed them too (although in all fairness they didn't even realise they had a spall Void Shift - so not going to worry about that too much). Today in 483 Gear (series of very very bad drops) with only my Tier Legs, I was putting out about 100K HPS at a peak and on Average about 50-70K.

    However, I feel monks work because of the combination of the two abilities and if Blizzard is making us choose one or the other, I think this is a bit of departure from what make the class unique to begin with. When I think of what they pitched the idea of a monk as, a punching, kicking melee healer, this seems to be moving further and further away from that idea and I feel a little unsure as to exactly how I will perform my role in raids.

    All I can say is thank God I am raid leader (and have a priest tucked away just in case)

    As an aside, I have exclusively spell cast in raids, as in I never fisted the boss, just to see what could be done. I was pleasantly surprised by the results and found it to be hard but comparable to what some other healers were doing.

  7. #287
    As people have stated here, I'm worried about the amount of Chi options we have for spending. With these new mana costs, it's looking like Glyphing Uplift will be the way to go. This leaves us with two DPS abilities, and Enveloping Mist as Chi Spenders, making the resource.. pretty weak, really. I can see Healing Sphere come into play with a lowered reliance on Chi.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Rush042 View Post
    As people have stated here, I'm worried about the amount of Chi options we have for spending. With these new mana costs, it's looking like Glyphing Uplift will be the way to go. This leaves us with two DPS abilities, and Enveloping Mist as Chi Spenders, making the resource.. pretty weak, really. I can see Healing Sphere come into play with a lowered reliance on Chi.
    Like I've said though, you're required to get Chi to use Uplift because Renewing Mists gives Chi and there's nothing we can do about it. That's baked into its balance as a heal, what are we really supposed to do with all that Chi if we glyph Uplift? TP/BoK will do next to nothing without Muscle Memory, and we can't possibly think that tossing in random Envelopings is going to be good.

  9. #289
    Field Marshal Cathaia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    76
    Also keep in mind we need to build our Mana Tea stacks from something, and a glyphed Uplift won't help there. One would have to consider to maybe build high amounts of Tea with Fistweaving in low damage phases and keep those amounts banked, which could also mean that the Mana Tea Glyph gets quite pointless throughout the whole playstyle.
    I am really getting too old for this.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Cathaia View Post
    Also keep in mind we need to build our Mana Tea stacks from something, and a glyphed Uplift won't help there. One would have to consider to maybe build high amounts of Tea with Fistweaving in low damage phases and keep those amounts banked, which could also mean that the Mana Tea Glyph gets quite pointless throughout the whole playstyle.
    I've never understood the "We have to build Mana Tea Stacks" mentality. Yes, they play a big part in our regen right now, but if Glyphed Uplift is cheaper than Non-glyphed Uplift, even counting the Mana Tea Stacks you are losing out on (As it is right now, I believe), it doesn't matter that Glyphing removes the Mana Tea stacks.

  11. #291
    Field Marshal Cathaia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    76
    Quote Originally Posted by Rush042 View Post
    I've never understood the "We have to build Mana Tea Stacks" mentality.
    Well I can just speak for myself, being used to raiding in a tight 10man without lots of Mana Cooldowns (no Tide, 1 Hymn, and 1 Innervate if lucky - but there is at least one more healer who might need that), so for me having Tea and using it has always been a core aspect of my "rotation" (~10k Spirit plus 2 Spirit procs from Trinkets). For my personal situation, all the latest changes most likely result in swapping classes come 5.2, because I know that I will struggle to perform competitively in our setup.
    I am really getting too old for this.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Rush042 View Post
    I've never understood the "We have to build Mana Tea Stacks" mentality. Yes, they play a big part in our regen right now, but if Glyphed Uplift is cheaper than Non-glyphed Uplift, even counting the Mana Tea Stacks you are losing out on (As it is right now, I believe), it doesn't matter that Glyphing removes the Mana Tea stacks.
    The issue is though that without uplift we can't get mana stacks period without being in melee, which while it isn't much of a problem it does effect our regen to an extent through the loss of ability to game MT stacks to get a buffer for the more mana intensive phases of a fight. There's also the fact it devalues crit to an extent also.
    Pure LF Healers, Ranged DPS for Warlords! - Top 3 Night 25HC EU. - Big dumb mistweaver blog - YouTube

    That's like Eminem saying he's black cause he drew a brown outline on his mirror in the morning, everyone else sees him as white but he seems himself as black and weird example but same crazy concept of rather avoid lol.

  13. #293
    Immortal apepi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Mostly harmless
    Posts
    7,778
    Quote Originally Posted by Coraulten View Post
    From what i've done on ptr so far pure fistweaving is viable mana wise.
    Did you just do pure fistweqving or did you throw in renewing mist and expel harm in there? I found it best to use both because jab cost so much mana now I do either a expel harm or rm>jab>BoK. BoK that way is not badish on aoe heals then.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    Did you just do pure fistweqving or did you throw in renewing mist and expel harm in there? I found it best to use both because jab cost so much mana now I do either a expel harm or rm>jab>BoK. BoK that way is not badish on aoe heals then.
    BoK is what you should be casting if you're not wanting to bank chi, it has a higher DPCT than jab.
    Pure LF Healers, Ranged DPS for Warlords! - Top 3 Night 25HC EU. - Big dumb mistweaver blog - YouTube

    That's like Eminem saying he's black cause he drew a brown outline on his mirror in the morning, everyone else sees him as white but he seems himself as black and weird example but same crazy concept of rather avoid lol.

  15. #295
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    136
    About all the remarks concerning Mana Tea.
    Mana Tea, as implemented in game ATM is not a real mana regeneration mechanic, it's actually a time tax to make the rotation more involving that FEELS like a mana regeneration mechanic, I'll explain.

    If Blizzard decided to get rid of Mana Tea today, without reducing our efficiency it would be rather easy (mostly, there are some corners to smooth, but for the most part) . All they have to do is reduce the mana return (from Mana Tea) expectancy value from each of our chi generating spells. So if you should have 20% crit in a tier the expectancy value is 3600 per chi, meaning:
    Jab =9000-3600=5400.
    Renewing Mist=19500-3600=15900.
    Expel Harm=7500-3600=3900.
    And so on.
    What this change does is freeing that GCD (or time spent channeling) every time we would have drank, assuming Mana Tea was still there. Hence why I called it a "time tax".
    Side note: that is a significant amount of time. 1 second every 15 is over 6% more GCDs to heal with, as an example.

    The "few edges to smooth out" are the crit scaling and chi generated by T45, possibly other minor tweaks that I forgot. But by and large, it's rather easy to surgically remove Mana Tea from the game without affecting our mana efficiency.

    This is different in it's core than spells like Innervate, Divine Plea, Hymn of Hope, Mana Tide Totem and the like. Not only is removing them from the game and compensating elsewhere be more complicated (and likely will affect their rotation, see PW:Solace), the amount of spells you cast as a Druid/Paladin/Shaman does not change your regeneration from your mana regenerating abilities. (notice I omitted Priests, in between Rapture and the new Solace a case can be made that it does affect them in a way, much less so than a Monk and Mana Tea though).

    The only reason you are "addicted" to Mana Tea is because spell costs already include in them what you'll regenerate later on, therefore are inflated.

    TL;DR - If spell A costs less than spell B (after ALL returns being accounted, for both) it actually is cheaper, Mana Tea or not.
    Feels odd saying it like this
    Example would be Healing Sphere compared to Surging Mist on live.

    Mazor.

  16. #296
    16 pages on the new class issues post and NOT ANY WORD on MW

    That's incredible

    ATM we need changes on gameplay + numbers + add news skills, but they lose time upping other classes with tottally random numbers because they are hurried for a patch that is not ready at all to be on live

  17. #297

  18. #298
    Field Marshal Cathaia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    76
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazor View Post
    TL;DR - If spell A costs less than spell B (after ALL returns being accounted, for both) it actually is cheaper, Mana Tea or not.
    This is of course correct, however I think the approach is overall a bit too linear to work for our specific situation.
    Right now the thing is, the crit mechanic serves us really well there. Combined with the general ability to gain and then spend a lot of Chi, we are also building Tea stacks at a decent speed and can bank them for when we need it, and thanks to crit, also gaining more than we'd net if there was no Tea and all mana costs were just that bit lower. Glyphing Uplift / costly Jab / random chi generators will lead to less Chi usage, thus less tea stacks, less chance on extra stacks, less mana gained.

    I guess we can agree that the increase in the mana costs is coming from the fact that we are still -way- too efficient. ReM/Uplift is an incredible thing for raid healing and we are (J-ab)using it to perfection. As it was technically nerfed already in 5.1 with the cut on ReM charges, I am really starting to wonder why they still refrain from touching the source itself, i.e. plainly nerfing or modifying Uplift as it had been suggested by many people, instead of tossing Jab mana costs to ridiculous levels which will lead to using Uplift less, of course, as we either can't build enough Chi without going oom/relying on random chi generators, or we will be oom from using the glyphed Uplift.
    And this is, down the line, the reason why I will most likely be swapping in 5.2 (will talk it through with the raid leader of course, but our 10man would be better off with a RSham or HPally instead of a MW anyway for buffs and cooldowns), because I cannot rely on huge external sources of mana gain, as our raid just doesn't have them. I am still hoping for some more modifications on the PTR as I am really fond of my Monk as a whole, however I just don't want to hold us back and as I can offer a healing alternative, I may go for that.
    Last edited by Cathaia; 2013-02-20 at 03:04 PM. Reason: spelling is hard
    I am really getting too old for this.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazor View Post
    About all the remarks concerning Mana Tea.
    Mana Tea, as implemented in game ATM is not a real mana regeneration mechanic, it's actually a time tax to make the rotation more involving that FEELS like a mana regeneration mechanic, I'll explain.

    If Blizzard decided to get rid of Mana Tea today, without reducing our efficiency it would be rather easy (mostly, there are some corners to smooth, but for the most part) . All they have to do is reduce the mana return (from Mana Tea) expectancy value from each of our chi generating spells. So if you should have 20% crit in a tier the expectancy value is 3600 per chi, meaning:
    Jab =9000-3600=5400.
    Renewing Mist=19500-3600=15900.
    Expel Harm=7500-3600=3900.
    And so on.
    What this change does is freeing that GCD (or time spent channeling) every time we would have drank, assuming Mana Tea was still there. Hence why I called it a "time tax".
    Side note: that is a significant amount of time. 1 second every 15 is over 6% more GCDs to heal with, as an example.

    The "few edges to smooth out" are the crit scaling and chi generated by T45, possibly other minor tweaks that I forgot. But by and large, it's rather easy to surgically remove Mana Tea from the game without affecting our mana efficiency.

    This is different in it's core than spells like Innervate, Divine Plea, Hymn of Hope, Mana Tide Totem and the like. Not only is removing them from the game and compensating elsewhere be more complicated (and likely will affect their rotation, see PW:Solace), the amount of spells you cast as a Druid/Paladin/Shaman does not change your regeneration from your mana regenerating abilities. (notice I omitted Priests, in between Rapture and the new Solace a case can be made that it does affect them in a way, much less so than a Monk and Mana Tea though).

    The only reason you are "addicted" to Mana Tea is because spell costs already include in them what you'll regenerate later on, therefore are inflated.

    TL;DR - If spell A costs less than spell B (after ALL returns being accounted, for both) it actually is cheaper, Mana Tea or not.
    Feels odd saying it like this
    Example would be Healing Sphere compared to Surging Mist on live.

    Mazor.
    You're completely forgetting something here that does make Mana Tea a regeneration mechanic. The ability to build up stacks during low damage periods while staying at maximum mana, and use it during high damage periods. The situation you're describing assumes that mana tea is used whenever possible, in my experience this is definately not be the case. On the fight "Will of the Emperor" for example, I'm able to build up mana tea stacks in the beginning while staying at maximum mana, because nobody is taking damage from the adds.

    Personaly, Jab's mana cost is the least of my worries in the upcoming patch as it stands now. I would have preferred Tiger Palm to return 1% mana instead of 2% but requiring Muscle Memory. Since Muscle Memory is given only by jab and SKC (and only if it hits 3 enemies), the only reason this mana return exists is to offset mana cost of jab and SCK. I can see why they are doing this though. They simply want to have the chi generation of jab and SCK to be used for fistweaving only, and not as a reliable way to get chi for uplift. Basicly they are saying : Either fistweave or mistweave, don't mix them together.

    This wouldn't be so bad if Chi generation and AoE healing weren't so unreliable when mistweaving. Uplift relies too much on renewing mist, something you don't realy have control over. Another problem with renewing mist is that it needs preparation (it takes time to spread to multiple people), so uplift can't be used in quick response to AoE damage unless you keep renewing mist up at all times, often requiring you to heal people that don't need it. The change in t30 talents not only removes one of the few ranged Chi using abilities, it also makes AoE healing rely even more on Uplift.

    Here's some ideas that might actually fix it.
    Soothing mist : Instead of 35% per tick to generate chi, make it generate chi every 3rd tick. (And the same for lightning obviously)
    Uplift : Heal the 5 most damaged people in range. Heals more depening on how many people have renewing mist on them. Still dependant on Renewing mist like it is now, but more controlable.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Cathaia View Post
    This is of course correct, however I think the approach is overall a bit too linear to work for our specific situation.
    Right now the thing is, the crit mechanic serves us really well there. Combined with the general ability to gain and then spend a lot of Chi, we are also building Tea stacks at a decent speed and can bank them for when we need it, and thanks to crit, also gaining more than we'd net if there was no Tea and all mana costs were just that bit lower. Glyphing Uplift / costly Jab / random chi generators will lead to less Chi usage, thus less tea stacks, less chance on extra stacks, less mana gained.

    I guess we can agree that the increase in the mana costs is coming from the fact that we are still -way- too efficient. ReM/Uplift is an incredible thing for raid healing and we are (J-ab)using it to perfection. As it was technically nerfed already in 5.1 with the cut on ReM charges, I am really starting to wonder why they still refrain from touching the source itself, i.e. plainly nerfing or modifying Uplift as it had been suggested by many people, instead of tossing Jab mana costs to ridiculous levels which will lead to using Uplift less, of course, as we either can't build enough Chi without going oom/relying on random chi generators, or we will be oom from using the glyphed Uplift.
    And this is, down the line, the reason why I will most likely be swapping in 5.2 (will talk it through with the raid leader of course, but our 10man would be better off with a RSham or HPally instead of a MW anyway for buffs and cooldowns), because I cannot rely on huge external sources of mana gain, as our raid just doesn't have them. I am still hoping for some more modifications on the PTR as I am really fond of my Monk as a whole, however I just don't want to hold us back and as I can offer a healing alternative, I may go for that.
    you're in exactly the same place as me
    /Cheesecáke - Level 90 Mistweaver
    - Nagrand EU -
    www.OMFGKittens.com - Officer

    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    Did you hurt yourself falling off the bad comparison bus?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •