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  1. #281
    Sad monk tears are sad
    /TROLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL - Level 100 Hunter
    Quote Originally Posted by SomeAwesomeForumGuy View Post
    “Nostalgia was like a disease, one that crept in and stole the colour from the world and the time you lived in. Made for bitter people. Dangerous people, when they wanted back what never was.” -- Steven Erikson, The Crippled God.

  2. #282
    So are Blizz wanting us to use our spell casting abilities to deal with high damage and just fistweave when there's nothing much coming in?

    I've played atonement and honestly, I used to DPS the whole time, throwing out additional heals as needed. Pop my wings for higher damage and shield a few peeps as needed, but it was clearly a mix of the two.

    Since Pandaria launched I've been playing monk and have been outclassing out RShammy, HPally and Druid and loving it. Our second team has a Priest and I outclassed them too (although in all fairness they didn't even realise they had a spall Void Shift - so not going to worry about that too much). Today in 483 Gear (series of very very bad drops) with only my Tier Legs, I was putting out about 100K HPS at a peak and on Average about 50-70K.

    However, I feel monks work because of the combination of the two abilities and if Blizzard is making us choose one or the other, I think this is a bit of departure from what make the class unique to begin with. When I think of what they pitched the idea of a monk as, a punching, kicking melee healer, this seems to be moving further and further away from that idea and I feel a little unsure as to exactly how I will perform my role in raids.

    All I can say is thank God I am raid leader (and have a priest tucked away just in case)

    As an aside, I have exclusively spell cast in raids, as in I never fisted the boss, just to see what could be done. I was pleasantly surprised by the results and found it to be hard but comparable to what some other healers were doing.

  3. #283
    As people have stated here, I'm worried about the amount of Chi options we have for spending. With these new mana costs, it's looking like Glyphing Uplift will be the way to go. This leaves us with two DPS abilities, and Enveloping Mist as Chi Spenders, making the resource.. pretty weak, really. I can see Healing Sphere come into play with a lowered reliance on Chi.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Rush042 View Post
    As people have stated here, I'm worried about the amount of Chi options we have for spending. With these new mana costs, it's looking like Glyphing Uplift will be the way to go. This leaves us with two DPS abilities, and Enveloping Mist as Chi Spenders, making the resource.. pretty weak, really. I can see Healing Sphere come into play with a lowered reliance on Chi.
    Like I've said though, you're required to get Chi to use Uplift because Renewing Mists gives Chi and there's nothing we can do about it. That's baked into its balance as a heal, what are we really supposed to do with all that Chi if we glyph Uplift? TP/BoK will do next to nothing without Muscle Memory, and we can't possibly think that tossing in random Envelopings is going to be good.

  5. #285
    High Overlord Cathaia's Avatar
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    Also keep in mind we need to build our Mana Tea stacks from something, and a glyphed Uplift won't help there. One would have to consider to maybe build high amounts of Tea with Fistweaving in low damage phases and keep those amounts banked, which could also mean that the Mana Tea Glyph gets quite pointless throughout the whole playstyle.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Cathaia View Post
    Also keep in mind we need to build our Mana Tea stacks from something, and a glyphed Uplift won't help there. One would have to consider to maybe build high amounts of Tea with Fistweaving in low damage phases and keep those amounts banked, which could also mean that the Mana Tea Glyph gets quite pointless throughout the whole playstyle.
    I've never understood the "We have to build Mana Tea Stacks" mentality. Yes, they play a big part in our regen right now, but if Glyphed Uplift is cheaper than Non-glyphed Uplift, even counting the Mana Tea Stacks you are losing out on (As it is right now, I believe), it doesn't matter that Glyphing removes the Mana Tea stacks.

  7. #287
    High Overlord Cathaia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rush042 View Post
    I've never understood the "We have to build Mana Tea Stacks" mentality.
    Well I can just speak for myself, being used to raiding in a tight 10man without lots of Mana Cooldowns (no Tide, 1 Hymn, and 1 Innervate if lucky - but there is at least one more healer who might need that), so for me having Tea and using it has always been a core aspect of my "rotation" (~10k Spirit plus 2 Spirit procs from Trinkets). For my personal situation, all the latest changes most likely result in swapping classes come 5.2, because I know that I will struggle to perform competitively in our setup.

  8. #288
    The Lightbringer Reglitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rush042 View Post
    I've never understood the "We have to build Mana Tea Stacks" mentality. Yes, they play a big part in our regen right now, but if Glyphed Uplift is cheaper than Non-glyphed Uplift, even counting the Mana Tea Stacks you are losing out on (As it is right now, I believe), it doesn't matter that Glyphing removes the Mana Tea stacks.
    The issue is though that without uplift we can't get mana stacks period without being in melee, which while it isn't much of a problem it does effect our regen to an extent through the loss of ability to game MT stacks to get a buffer for the more mana intensive phases of a fight. There's also the fact it devalues crit to an extent also.

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coraulten View Post
    From what i've done on ptr so far pure fistweaving is viable mana wise.
    Did you just do pure fistweqving or did you throw in renewing mist and expel harm in there? I found it best to use both because jab cost so much mana now I do either a expel harm or rm>jab>BoK. BoK that way is not badish on aoe heals then.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  10. #290
    The Lightbringer Reglitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apepi View Post
    Did you just do pure fistweqving or did you throw in renewing mist and expel harm in there? I found it best to use both because jab cost so much mana now I do either a expel harm or rm>jab>BoK. BoK that way is not badish on aoe heals then.
    BoK is what you should be casting if you're not wanting to bank chi, it has a higher DPCT than jab.

  11. #291
    16 pages on the new class issues post and NOT ANY WORD on MW

    That's incredible

    ATM we need changes on gameplay + numbers + add news skills, but they lose time upping other classes with tottally random numbers because they are hurried for a patch that is not ready at all to be on live

  12. #292

  13. #293
    High Overlord Cathaia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazor View Post
    TL;DR - If spell A costs less than spell B (after ALL returns being accounted, for both) it actually is cheaper, Mana Tea or not.
    This is of course correct, however I think the approach is overall a bit too linear to work for our specific situation.
    Right now the thing is, the crit mechanic serves us really well there. Combined with the general ability to gain and then spend a lot of Chi, we are also building Tea stacks at a decent speed and can bank them for when we need it, and thanks to crit, also gaining more than we'd net if there was no Tea and all mana costs were just that bit lower. Glyphing Uplift / costly Jab / random chi generators will lead to less Chi usage, thus less tea stacks, less chance on extra stacks, less mana gained.

    I guess we can agree that the increase in the mana costs is coming from the fact that we are still -way- too efficient. ReM/Uplift is an incredible thing for raid healing and we are (J-ab)using it to perfection. As it was technically nerfed already in 5.1 with the cut on ReM charges, I am really starting to wonder why they still refrain from touching the source itself, i.e. plainly nerfing or modifying Uplift as it had been suggested by many people, instead of tossing Jab mana costs to ridiculous levels which will lead to using Uplift less, of course, as we either can't build enough Chi without going oom/relying on random chi generators, or we will be oom from using the glyphed Uplift.
    And this is, down the line, the reason why I will most likely be swapping in 5.2 (will talk it through with the raid leader of course, but our 10man would be better off with a RSham or HPally instead of a MW anyway for buffs and cooldowns), because I cannot rely on huge external sources of mana gain, as our raid just doesn't have them. I am still hoping for some more modifications on the PTR as I am really fond of my Monk as a whole, however I just don't want to hold us back and as I can offer a healing alternative, I may go for that.
    Last edited by Cathaia; 2013-02-20 at 03:04 PM. Reason: spelling is hard

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazor View Post
    About all the remarks concerning Mana Tea.
    Mana Tea, as implemented in game ATM is not a real mana regeneration mechanic, it's actually a time tax to make the rotation more involving that FEELS like a mana regeneration mechanic, I'll explain.

    If Blizzard decided to get rid of Mana Tea today, without reducing our efficiency it would be rather easy (mostly, there are some corners to smooth, but for the most part) . All they have to do is reduce the mana return (from Mana Tea) expectancy value from each of our chi generating spells. So if you should have 20% crit in a tier the expectancy value is 3600 per chi, meaning:
    Jab =9000-3600=5400.
    Renewing Mist=19500-3600=15900.
    Expel Harm=7500-3600=3900.
    And so on.
    What this change does is freeing that GCD (or time spent channeling) every time we would have drank, assuming Mana Tea was still there. Hence why I called it a "time tax".
    Side note: that is a significant amount of time. 1 second every 15 is over 6% more GCDs to heal with, as an example.

    The "few edges to smooth out" are the crit scaling and chi generated by T45, possibly other minor tweaks that I forgot. But by and large, it's rather easy to surgically remove Mana Tea from the game without affecting our mana efficiency.

    This is different in it's core than spells like Innervate, Divine Plea, Hymn of Hope, Mana Tide Totem and the like. Not only is removing them from the game and compensating elsewhere be more complicated (and likely will affect their rotation, see PW:Solace), the amount of spells you cast as a Druid/Paladin/Shaman does not change your regeneration from your mana regenerating abilities. (notice I omitted Priests, in between Rapture and the new Solace a case can be made that it does affect them in a way, much less so than a Monk and Mana Tea though).

    The only reason you are "addicted" to Mana Tea is because spell costs already include in them what you'll regenerate later on, therefore are inflated.

    TL;DR - If spell A costs less than spell B (after ALL returns being accounted, for both) it actually is cheaper, Mana Tea or not.
    Feels odd saying it like this
    Example would be Healing Sphere compared to Surging Mist on live.

    Mazor.
    You're completely forgetting something here that does make Mana Tea a regeneration mechanic. The ability to build up stacks during low damage periods while staying at maximum mana, and use it during high damage periods. The situation you're describing assumes that mana tea is used whenever possible, in my experience this is definately not be the case. On the fight "Will of the Emperor" for example, I'm able to build up mana tea stacks in the beginning while staying at maximum mana, because nobody is taking damage from the adds.

    Personaly, Jab's mana cost is the least of my worries in the upcoming patch as it stands now. I would have preferred Tiger Palm to return 1% mana instead of 2% but requiring Muscle Memory. Since Muscle Memory is given only by jab and SKC (and only if it hits 3 enemies), the only reason this mana return exists is to offset mana cost of jab and SCK. I can see why they are doing this though. They simply want to have the chi generation of jab and SCK to be used for fistweaving only, and not as a reliable way to get chi for uplift. Basicly they are saying : Either fistweave or mistweave, don't mix them together.

    This wouldn't be so bad if Chi generation and AoE healing weren't so unreliable when mistweaving. Uplift relies too much on renewing mist, something you don't realy have control over. Another problem with renewing mist is that it needs preparation (it takes time to spread to multiple people), so uplift can't be used in quick response to AoE damage unless you keep renewing mist up at all times, often requiring you to heal people that don't need it. The change in t30 talents not only removes one of the few ranged Chi using abilities, it also makes AoE healing rely even more on Uplift.

    Here's some ideas that might actually fix it.
    Soothing mist : Instead of 35% per tick to generate chi, make it generate chi every 3rd tick. (And the same for lightning obviously)
    Uplift : Heal the 5 most damaged people in range. Heals more depening on how many people have renewing mist on them. Still dependant on Renewing mist like it is now, but more controlable.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Cathaia View Post
    This is of course correct, however I think the approach is overall a bit too linear to work for our specific situation.
    Right now the thing is, the crit mechanic serves us really well there. Combined with the general ability to gain and then spend a lot of Chi, we are also building Tea stacks at a decent speed and can bank them for when we need it, and thanks to crit, also gaining more than we'd net if there was no Tea and all mana costs were just that bit lower. Glyphing Uplift / costly Jab / random chi generators will lead to less Chi usage, thus less tea stacks, less chance on extra stacks, less mana gained.

    I guess we can agree that the increase in the mana costs is coming from the fact that we are still -way- too efficient. ReM/Uplift is an incredible thing for raid healing and we are (J-ab)using it to perfection. As it was technically nerfed already in 5.1 with the cut on ReM charges, I am really starting to wonder why they still refrain from touching the source itself, i.e. plainly nerfing or modifying Uplift as it had been suggested by many people, instead of tossing Jab mana costs to ridiculous levels which will lead to using Uplift less, of course, as we either can't build enough Chi without going oom/relying on random chi generators, or we will be oom from using the glyphed Uplift.
    And this is, down the line, the reason why I will most likely be swapping in 5.2 (will talk it through with the raid leader of course, but our 10man would be better off with a RSham or HPally instead of a MW anyway for buffs and cooldowns), because I cannot rely on huge external sources of mana gain, as our raid just doesn't have them. I am still hoping for some more modifications on the PTR as I am really fond of my Monk as a whole, however I just don't want to hold us back and as I can offer a healing alternative, I may go for that.
    you're in exactly the same place as me
    /TROLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL - Level 100 Hunter
    Quote Originally Posted by SomeAwesomeForumGuy View Post
    “Nostalgia was like a disease, one that crept in and stole the colour from the world and the time you lived in. Made for bitter people. Dangerous people, when they wanted back what never was.” -- Steven Erikson, The Crippled God.

  16. #296
    ^^ Well, Iam in 25man guild and we have 3 priests, 2 druids 2 monks... Its ok for now, but for 5.2 i have a paladin prepared for reroll :P

  17. #297
    SCK, esp. w/ the eminent increase of spirit on ourselves and Rsham from t15 gear, will be a perfectly fine alternative. Whether or not you like using it, the sky is not really falling, you just need to adapt. I did similar healing on garalon using solely SCK and no jab, comparing to my pure-jab log. I ended with extra mana in the SCK case, so I could afford some jabs next patch during strong times like a TFT (when jab is > SCK for hps. As well I forgot to use chi brew once, as well as timing TFT's badly, those accounted for my HPS would've been similar if the healers were of same quality [during the SCK one, the raid was much more stable so I wasn't trying as hard, tbh], and my total throughput including an extra chi brew is off by around 2 million or: 79 million w/ jab vs 77 million w/ SCK, over a 6:20~ H Garalon fight.)

    Mind you I'm in near BiS and thus I could be getting carried by gear, but the fact remains that next tier we will all have better gear than I currently have, so SCK will become more and more viable.

    That is, until they realize they have to nerf it because it's more efficient then jab...but that won't happen until they finish their numbers. Or due to everyone saying the sky is falling [destroying our current playstyle, this is true], they might overlook it...and then nerf it in a hotfix a few days later [hey just like 5.1 .-.]

    Anywho, just dropping by to say the sky is far from "falling", our current status as the gods of throughput (in 25m raids) is very far from being removed. Lack of ability to place our healing, yes (and I view that as a problem), but we still have the sledgehammer for throughput both AoE (sck/uplift/tft) and single target (healing sphere alpha).

    Value my opinion or not, if the current state of MW is to go live I will be favoring my MW for t15 progression over my alts (for gear, fun, and viability reasons). YMMV

    PS: I hate eminence (20 yd range? srsly? why do we not have 40yds like atonement yet, it's absurd :'c ).

    PSS: Most other fights operate on burst healing, and with chi brew our burst healing capabilities are hardly touched by the jab nerf (I normally sit around 4 chi and have ReM/EH around for the third w/o chi brew, and in my raid we're normally topped by that time. As well, fights which might call for jab I normally have extreme amounts of excess mana, so I doubt it will be a problem regardless of choosing jab or SCK in those scenarios [esp. with more spirit.])
    Last edited by Astraios; 2013-02-20 at 07:38 PM.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    SCK, esp. w/ the eminent increase of spirit on ourselves and Rsham from t15 gear, will be a perfectly fine alternative. Whether or not you like using it, the sky is not really falling, you just need to adapt. I did similar healing on garalon using solely SCK and no jab, comparing to my pure-jab log. I ended with extra mana in the SCK case, so I could afford some jabs next patch during strong times like a TFT (when jab is > SCK for hps. As well I forgot to use chi brew once, as well as timing TFT's badly, those accounted for my HPS would've been similar if the healers were of same quality [during the SCK one, the raid was much more stable so I wasn't trying as hard, tbh], and my total throughput including an extra chi brew is off by around 2 million or: 79 million w/ jab vs 77 million w/ SCK, over a 6:20~ H Garalon fight.)
    Garalon is not where this hits us the hardest. In fact, it's one of the lightest areas the nerf touches because SCK is a completely viable alternative for it. What it hurts is our raid healing when SCK is not an option to heal with. If the raid is spread out, you can't very well use it to heal 6+ people, and if you have to resort to using it purely for chi generation, you're using a LOT more mana than live to do the same amount of healing. This is the Cataclysm Shaman problem, you automatically make fights that include heavy raid damage + "must be 8 yards apart" be awful for Mistweavers. What's even worse about those fights is that Eminence can't possibly be in range of everyone because the statue can only cover about 30% of the circumference of the circle around a boss. If we're not allowed to spam Uplift without it costing 30k+ mana, we have no option for that scenario.

    The sky is not falling for typical fights. Our Garalons, Gara'jals, Fengs, and Tsulongs will still be fine, in fact they're possibly being buffed because of the T30 talents not costing chi. However, they've opened the door for once specific type of fight (which is common, Ragnaros in Firelands, Warlord Zon'ozz, Haggara, Blade Lord if it had real raid damage, Empress) for which we will be useless. I played a Shaman all throughout WotlK and Cata, and it was not fun in Cata when we had those kinds of fights, and we're venturing into the same territory.

  19. #299
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    arent eminance form the monk himself 100y? And from statue 20y?

  20. #300
    IMO, Eminence is far far far away from atonment, which is a real scandal when Disci should be the Absorb healer while we are the "dps to heal " healer

    They took our jobs !

    AND, if you think you can change our jab-jab-uplift to sck-sck-uplift i think you're wrong
    If devs don't want that kind of gameplay they will make SCK cost about 25% mana in less time it takes to say it
    Last edited by sakk; 2013-02-20 at 08:05 PM.

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