Jab Nerfed Again :D

[Gragagrogog]

^^ Well, Iam in 25man guild and we have 3 priests, 2 druids 2 monks... Its ok for now, but for 5.2 i have a paladin prepared for reroll :P

[gnorrior]

SCK, esp. w/ the eminent increase of spirit on ourselves and Rsham from t15 gear, will be a perfectly fine alternative. Whether or not you like using it, the sky is not really falling, you just need to adapt. I did similar healing on garalon using solely SCK and no jab, comparing to my pure-jab log. I ended with extra mana in the SCK case, so I could afford some jabs next patch during strong times like a TFT (when jab is > SCK for hps. As well I forgot to use chi brew once, as well as timing TFT's badly, those accounted for my HPS would've been similar if the healers were of same quality [during the SCK one, the raid was much more stable so I wasn't trying as hard, tbh], and my total throughput including an extra chi brew is off by around 2 million or: 79 million w/ jab vs 77 million w/ SCK, over a 6:20~ H Garalon fight.)

Mind you I'm in near BiS and thus I could be getting carried by gear, but the fact remains that next tier we will all have better gear than I currently have, so SCK will become more and more viable.

That is, until they realize they have to nerf it because it's more efficient then jab...but that won't happen until they finish their numbers. Or due to everyone saying the sky is falling [destroying our current playstyle, this is true], they might overlook it...and then nerf it in a hotfix a few days later [hey just like 5.1 .-.]

Anywho, just dropping by to say the sky is far from "falling", our current status as the gods of throughput (in 25m raids) is very far from being removed. Lack of ability to place our healing, yes (and I view that as a problem), but we still have the sledgehammer for throughput both AoE (sck/uplift/tft) and single target (healing sphere alpha).

Value my opinion or not, if the current state of MW is to go live I will be favoring my MW for t15 progression over my alts (for gear, fun, and viability reasons). YMMV

PS: I hate eminence (20 yd range? srsly? why do we not have 40yds like atonement yet, it's absurd :'c ).

PSS: Most other fights operate on burst healing, and with chi brew our burst healing capabilities are hardly touched by the jab nerf (I normally sit around 4 chi and have ReM/EH around for the third w/o chi brew, and in my raid we're normally topped by that time. As well, fights which might call for jab I normally have extreme amounts of excess mana, so I doubt it will be a problem regardless of choosing jab or SCK in those scenarios [esp. with more spirit.])

[Totaltotemic]

SCK, esp. w/ the eminent increase of spirit on ourselves and Rsham from t15 gear, will be a perfectly fine alternative. Whether or not you like using it, the sky is not really falling, you just need to adapt. I did similar healing on garalon using solely SCK and no jab, comparing to my pure-jab log. I ended with extra mana in the SCK case, so I could afford some jabs next patch during strong times like a TFT (when jab is > SCK for hps. As well I forgot to use chi brew once, as well as timing TFT's badly, those accounted for my HPS would've been similar if the healers were of same quality [during the SCK one, the raid was much more stable so I wasn't trying as hard, tbh], and my total throughput including an extra chi brew is off by around 2 million or: 79 million w/ jab vs 77 million w/ SCK, over a 6:20~ H Garalon fight.)

Garalon is not where this hits us the hardest. In fact, it's one of the lightest areas the nerf touches because SCK is a completely viable alternative for it. What it hurts is our raid healing when SCK is not an option to heal with. If the raid is spread out, you can't very well use it to heal 6+ people, and if you have to resort to using it purely for chi generation, you're using a LOT more mana than live to do the same amount of healing. This is the Cataclysm Shaman problem, you automatically make fights that include heavy raid damage + "must be 8 yards apart" be awful for Mistweavers. What's even worse about those fights is that Eminence can't possibly be in range of everyone because the statue can only cover about 30% of the circumference of the circle around a boss. If we're not allowed to spam Uplift without it costing 30k+ mana, we have no option for that scenario.

The sky is not falling for typical fights. Our Garalons, Gara'jals, Fengs, and Tsulongs will still be fine, in fact they're possibly being buffed because of the T30 talents not costing chi. However, they've opened the door for once specific type of fight (which is common, Ragnaros in Firelands, Warlord Zon'ozz, Haggara, Blade Lord if it had real raid damage, Empress) for which we will be useless. I played a Shaman all throughout WotlK and Cata, and it was not fun in Cata when we had those kinds of fights, and we're venturing into the same territory.

[Tatuin]

arent eminance form the monk himself 100y? And from statue 20y?

[sakk]

IMO, Eminence is far far far away from atonment, which is a real scandal when Disci should be the Absorb healer while we are the "dps to heal " healer

They took our jobs !

AND, if you think you can change our jab-jab-uplift to sck-sck-uplift i think you're wrong
If devs don't want that kind of gameplay they will make SCK cost about 25% mana in less time it takes to say it

[Dreyo]

the sky is not really falling, you just need to adapt.

If the playstyles that I enjoy and that drew me to the class in the first place are being made no longer effective, then I'd say that does qualify as the sky falling.

[Totaltotemic]

AND, if you think you can change our jab-jab-uplift to sck-sck-uplift i think you're wrong
If devs don't want that kind of gameplay they will make SCK cost about 25% mana in less time it takes to say it

SCK costs more than double the base mana that Jab costs on live today. In terms of effective mana after Mana Tea, it's around triple live Jab. It's ignorant to say that we can just switch and we'll be fine.

[sakk]

The point is that the only aoe heal on demand which stay viable seems the Holy blessed Torpedo

( till they nerf it ofc)

[apepi]

I found a way to gain free mana with memory muscle with stance dancing. You still gain memory muscle in tiger stance so with you switch back into serpent stance and use tigers palm(remember you still are allowed 1 chi if you change stances) so it is pretty much manaless. The only problem I found is that in tiger stance you do not get hit from spirit and your jabs can miss. Here is a macro I have made up.

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=4 Stance of the Fierce Tiger, Jab, Stance of the Wise Serpent, Tiger Palm

If you end up trying to tigers palm and you have no chi to do so it means you have missed a jab. It is possible to get full mana(from zero) in a minute and 21 seconds depending on if you do not miss. It can be very hit or miss sometimes(literally) but maybe it could help us with mana. I also did about 21k dps and I am guessing 10.5k hps(without using chi wave though so it could be higher).

[Dreyo]

I found a way to gain free mana with memory muscle with stance dancing. You still gain memory muscle in tiger stance so with you switch back into serpent stance and use tigers palm(remember you still are allowed 1 chi if you change stances) so it is pretty much manaless. The only problem I found is that in tiger stance you do not get hit from spirit and your jabs can miss. Here is a macro I have made up.

If you end up trying to tigers palm and you have no chi to do so it means you have missed a jab. It is possible to get full mana(from zero) in a minute and 21 seconds depending on if you do not miss. It can be very hit or miss sometimes(literally) but maybe it could help us with mana. I also did about 21k dps and I am guessing 10.5k hps(without using chi wave though so it could be higher).

Okay, now this is just stupid. No no, apepi, I don't mean you, or your post, or your idea. I mean the fact that this idea works, and might even be a good one.

Why can't they have a system that is simply functional, and doesn't encourage us to work around it, instead of within it?

[Coraulten]

Can do about 5 jabs befor my energy bar depletes, thats a pretty awsome glitch. Makes the nurfs to jab bearable. Can probably even switch back to Serpent Stance to Tigers palm after the jab for the extra healing.

[Totaltotemic]

Okay, now this is just stupid. No no, apepi, I don't mean you, or your post, or your idea. I mean the fact that this idea works, and might even be a good one.

Why can't they have a system that is simply functional, and doesn't encourage us to work around it, instead of within it?

It's okay, they'll just change it so that Muscle Memory doesn't proc in Tiger Stance. Don't worry, exploits to try to counteract nerfs will be dealt with swiftly and efficiently. Make no mistake, they're not just trying to alter playstyle, this is a straight nerf and any attempt to make up for it in an unorthodox way will be fixed.

[Dreyo]

It's okay, they'll just change it so that Muscle Memory doesn't proc in Tiger Stance. Don't worry, exploits to try to counteract nerfs will be dealt with swiftly and efficiently. Make no mistake, they're not just trying to alter playstyle, this is a straight nerf and any attempt to make up for it in an unorthodox way will be fixed.

Then why did GC say early in the 5.2 PTR process that the intent was to provide Mistweavers with both a healing and damage buff? I can go find the quote, if you want, but I'm sure you know the one I mean.

Sigh. This is frustrating.

[apepi]

It's okay, they'll just change it so that Muscle Memory doesn't proc in Tiger Stance. Don't worry, exploits to try to counteract nerfs will be dealt with swiftly and efficiently. Make no mistake, they're not just trying to alter playstyle, this is a straight nerf and any attempt to make up for it in an unorthodox way will be fixed.

I would not say it is an exploit, it is just unintended. Memory muscle could be used in tiger stance before they they added the mana to it instead of TP.
Heres my math for it,
Each TP gives me 6900 mana so it takes me about 4 seconds to get that so it would be 1725 mana per second. But since I am using chi I would also gain mana teas so it would be about 1 mana tea per 16 seconds, I gain 13800 mana per teas so that would equal about 862.5 mana per second which both would add up to 2587.5 mana per second(?). I normally gain about 695.2 mana per second with spirit but since I would not be in serpent stance all the time it would be about 347.6, so in all it would be about 2935.1 mana per second if you do not miss a jab. My math might be off though, I am kinda in a hurry.

[todzilla85]

I would not say it is an exploit, it is just unintended. Memory muscle could be used in tiger stance before they they added the mana to it instead of TP.
Heres my math for it,
Each TP gives me 6900 mana so it takes me about 4 seconds to get that so it would be 1725 mana per second. But since I am using chi I would also gain mana teas so it would be about 1 mana tea per 16 seconds, I gain 13800 mana per teas so that would equal about 862.5 mana per second which both would add up to 2587.5 mana per second(?). I normally gain about 695.2 mana per second with spirit but since I would not be in serpent stance all the time it would be about 347.6, so in all it would be about 2935.1 mana per second if you do not miss a jab. My math might be off though, I am kinda in a hurry.

welp if this goes thru like this, which it probably wont, lets hope theres enough down time during fights to actually pull off a couple rounds of the macro

[Totaltotemic]

Then why did GC say early in the 5.2 PTR process that the intent was to provide Mistweavers with both a healing and damage buff? I can go find the quote, if you want, but I'm sure you know the one I mean.

Sigh. This is frustrating.

I remember the quote, he said it was a damage and healing buff to Fistweaving, which it is. Unfortunately by doing everything they possibly can to quarantine Fistweaving into its own, separate playstyle has gutted regular Mistweaver healing, as we've been relying on Jab since beta.

[apepi]

I remember the quote, he said it was a damage and healing buff to Fistweaving, which it is. Unfortunately by doing everything they possibly can to quarantine Fistweaving into its own, separate playstyle has gutted regular Mistweaver healing, as we've been relying on Jab since beta.

I think it is funny how they try so hard for it not work, they end up messing it up anyways. I still like my suggestion about dark chi, it would be the easiest way to go around this without having jab at a crazy amount of mana and the wierd Memory Muscle buff. Then you could just give our healing spells an actual reliable chi generator.

There is a point here where blizzard is making it too complex. Pretty much killing KISS/Occam's razor, Blizzard you have to keep it simple, all this having to increase the mana on jab and giving mana back by fisting is just too chaotic.

[Totaltotemic]

I think it is funny how they try so hard for it not work, they end up messing it up anyways. I still like my suggestion about dark chi, it would be the easiest way to go around this without having jab at a crazy amount of mana and the wierd Memory Muscle buff. Then you could just give our healing spells an actual reliable chi generator.

There is a point here where blizzard is making it too complex. Pretty much killing KISS/Occam's razor, Blizzard you have to keep it simple, all this having to increase the mana on jab and giving mana back by fisting is just too chaotic.

It's funny, because I was the person in the PTR issues thread that originally suggested tying the mana regen mechanic to Muscle Memory instead of TP because we would abuse it if it was on TP from other means. If we end up abusing the Muscle Memory proc again through different means, the simplest fix would be to simply disable TP and BoK by default and only enable their use via Muscle Memory, kind of like how Overpower works. Regardless of what they do to keep Fistweaving separate, they're going to be in for a rude awakening when people start using only Fistweaving or SCK to heal because nothing else works anymore.

[apepi]

It's funny, because I was the person in the PTR issues thread that originally suggested tying the mana regen mechanic to Muscle Memory instead of TP because we would abuse it if it was on TP from other means. If we end up abusing the Muscle Memory proc again through different means, the simplest fix would be to simply disable TP and BoK by default and only enable their use via Muscle Memory, kind of like how Overpower works. Regardless of what they do to keep Fistweaving separate, they're going to be in for a rude awakening when people start using only Fistweaving or SCK to heal because nothing else works anymore.

I suggested that they also should give to BoK but I just hate MM. I am considering sharing my info in the ptr thread, because while stance changing is goodish on mana, it is not really that fun(though bliz could read these forums also..). If they don't, I dub this stance changing technique(?) the Fierce Serpent dance.

Though it is somewhat ironic how I am not really going to even use this because I pvp, I don't pve.

[Reglitch]

From Greg's twitter;
Uplift now costs 10 Valor.

lol.